[Crazy Legs]

I was not able to go opening weekend, out of town, but I was wondering what everyones thoughts were on the trails, and what does the long term viability looks like for our first operating lift assisted mountain bike park in the south. I have seen some great pictures, and some moderate chatter on some old posts, but I wanted to keep interest level high for those of us who have not been able to make it there yet. Let the banter begin!

 

[FCLinder]

I think for the little help Ryan has had to build what is up there now it was ok. It will take some time for it to get to the level that everyone expects it to be. The place long term has some great potential. We just have to help support it for now while its in its growing stages. Go up when we can afford the gas to help build. Take a friend to cut down on those cost. Ryan wants some of your input on what needs to be built and how. He knows what he is doing but said he would like more input from you guys on what you would like to see. For everyone that bitching about not being able to take your bike on the lift understand the insurance is $180K up front for the year to take you bike on the lifts. It’s not to cover your bike falling off to replace it, but the cover your bike falling off and hitting someone. Give it some time and help support it for now until it grows into the bike park you want to ride every weekend.

Cecil

 

[drkenan]

input
noun
Something fed into a process with the intention of it shaping or affecting the outputs of that process.

 

[DHPeteinSC]

Ryan has done a great job! As a whole the trip was good(including the flash flood) By the end of the day the lift/shuttle was running nicely. I spent most of my time on the DH trail and it is Nasty!!! All in all it was really cool and I was not disappointed. Thanks Ryan!!

 

[MTB_Rob_NC]

As mentioned in a few other places. It was fun and everyone can certainly see the potential.

On the top of my list:
Remove the pedal catchers on the biggest of the 3 drops.
Maybe some slightly better directional arrow signage for the "Left" side trails.

For everyone that bitching about not being able to take your bike on the lift understand the insurance is $180K up front for the year to take you bike on the lifts. It’s not to cover your bike falling off to replace it, but the cover your bike falling off and hitting someone.

I heard this information in part and parcel from a number of sources and it is a little different each time. 180k in additional premium, or additional coverage?

I would assume the ladder or someone is doing some very bad math.

180,000 divided by a $24 lift ticket would mean that they would need to sell 7,500 lift tickets just to cover THAT expense. You might call it an investment, but even being optimistic and saying they can sell 100 tickets a weekend, lets assume 40 open weekends a year they are looking almost 2 years before enough revenue to cover... Not including other expenses?

 

[The Big Clyde]

Cecil put it well.

I would add (those who love to flame get ready), that I went in expecting the level that was described in the press release. Maybe I'm naive and should have interpreted the announcement as potentially what the park might be someday if it was supported, but that is not how it reads. I would only ask that 26 West be honest and communicate honestly.

I think some of you guys who are experienced at trail building need to give advice. I'm not expert but it seems that a lot of dig hours have been spent on things that don't work..the Village DH tables go uphill for instance. Now to prevent the stereotypical flame of don't complain if you don't build, I would say that I let Ryan know prior to the original opening day that I could have 4 people with tools come up and dig. I didn't get a call back for almost two weeks.

I'll be honest I was disappointed but I will go again to support it for the future.

 

[frznnomad]

i thik it deffintaly has tons of potential later on in the season but ryan deffinatly needs all the help we can give him. all in all it was a great opening weekend and it just let us all see what it needs, and we can only improve upon what ryan has laid down.

 

[Jeremy R]

Cecil put it well.

I would add (those who love to flame get ready), that I went in expecting the level that was described in the press release. Maybe I'm naive and should have interpreted the announcement as potentially what the park might be someday if it was supported, but that is not how it reads. I would only ask that 26 West be honest and communicate honestly.

I think some of you guys who are experienced at trail building need to give advice. I'm not expert but it seems that a lot of dig hours have been spent on things that don't work..the Village DH tables go uphill for instance. Now to prevent the stereotypical flame of don't complain if you don't build, I would say that I let Ryan know prior to the original opening day that I could have 4 people with tools come up and dig. I didn't get a call back for almost two weeks.

I'll be honest I was disappointed but I will go again to support it for the future.

You shouldn't get flamed for this.
The more people that speak out about how to improve it, the better.
I think some of it has to with Ryan is so busy building trail and trying to get the park open that he could not ride what he is building. And everybody that has ever built a trail knows, you build it one way, ride it, and then change what does not work. Ryan said he had never ridden those table tops.
If he had, he would have bulldozed those f***ers for sure.:biggrin:
On the village Dh trail, those table tops need to get smashed and some of the corners need to be opened up. They were too many momentem killing corners for a course like that with pedaling. I did like how the lower section flowed and the loam was dope.
But I knew going into this that is was a work in progress.
He is trying to do this on his own, and I know it is not easy.
There will be some growing pains, but I hope everyone sticks with it, helps out, and it will turn into a really cool place.

 

[Mulestar]

What everyone needs to understand is that shovels and dozers can only take a trail so far. Tools don't make great trails...riders do. Those trails need to bed in, which can only be done by more people riding them. For example, on village DH the loose switchback berms sucked on opening day, but once the line breaks in they will be fine.

Personally, I expected more to be open, but I had a good time. This is a tough crowd to please, and after ryan started spreading the word, the pressure to get this thing going was immense. I'm sure if he had the means, he would have postponed the opening until everything was ready. In all honesty though, some of the jumps and berms probably got worse from people riding them when they were way too soft.

input:

start with fun, flowy trails, and don't worry about having tons of jumps until the trails bed in and you can really tell where you can carry speed. The tables at the top were just too much work to get through, I would rather just not hit them at all.

Make more steep/sketchy sections. I know there is not a whole lot of vert to deal with, but now that there are a couple trails laid out, make some where you'll be able to carry more momentum down the hill.

While the turns were challenging, you can't expect to have a successful park for all levels if you have switchbacks so tight you can hardly get through them. Make some wide, sweeping turns and some nice tight, steep, apexy berms rather than goofy speed-killing turns.

The narrow bench cut wouldn't be a problem if it was in a low-traffic area, but in a bike park, the outside edge of that thing is gonna be gone by the end of the summer from people rolling off it.

overall, I think ryan did a good job for the little amount of help and mediocre terrain he had to deal with. He built several trails basically alone and it can't be expected that they will all work the first time they are ridden. I think the focus should be on fun, flowy trails for ALL levels of riders. Jumps and tight turns have to be really well thought out if they're to be a substitute for technical terrain. The park definitely has the potential to be a success, but people need to go support it and keep riding it and it will get better! More trails and options!

I know this was long but hopefully this is some nice constructive criticism that will help out.

 

[drkenan]

Big Clyde - the old "don't complain if you don't dig" saying doesn't apply to COMMERCIAL bike parks. They can't expect people to come out and dig all the time when they're the ones making money off the investment.

Yes I had fun going up and taking pictures opening day (and twice before that) but I don't blame anyone for being disappointed. What was promised on this message board was definitely not delivered. Fortunately, everyone (except for the 6-8 people I saw leave) was cool with this.

Take it for what it's worth but IMO the place isn't in the predicament that it's in because of any trail building mistakes or chairlift mishaps. It's because the EXPECTATION was set high by the previous post.

Everyone knows that the #1 cause of small business failure is mismanagement and there are ample free resources available online and also in the Asheville area that seek to help new business owners avoid that fate. Hell, I built my company from nothing to a staff of 20 in the past 4 1/2 years and I have been offering to help since day 1.

This post is definitely not a slam on Ryan or anyone at 26 West (Ryan - if you're reading - I want to help in any way possible) but even though I'm injured, I'm just as frustrated as anyone to see this happen. Judging from opening weekend, there's definitely a demand for lift-accessed riding in the SouthEast - it's just making it happen that seems to be the problem.

That being said, I'll be there as soon as I heal up.

 

[stoneysnake]

haven't been there yet and don't know ryan but, sounds like there is a lot of duff layer there and i've learned it the hard way duff is your enemy. sounds like there may have been some duff in some of those jumps if they were soft. definitely separate your materials so you don't have to waste your time rebuilding. if you have the means resurface all your trails with the dirt below your duff. you guys down there probably already know all of that but, just wanted to save you some time. i've rebuilt quite a few things built with duff including entire trails. personally i think if you've got killer trails people will worry less about how to get to the top. you've got a lot of riders down there that know what's up.

hope that helps. the more successful bike parks the better! i know it's tough- keep it pushing..

 

[profro]

I was able to clear the tables. I was even close in the mud.

However, I'm not representative of most of the 26West customer base.

As an example look at what Carter's Lake did. They have very little elevation, but they didn't try to lengthen the runs by going back up hill. They were okay with 1:45 runs. Lots of drops, jumps and turns. Always doing something. Helps slow down the pace and increases the time for fun.

I would cut down the tables just a little and open the turns up. And as Mulestar suggested widen the bench cut or it will be blown out quickly.

However I get humbled every time I go to Wolf and try to corner in the loam. That is a uniqueness to Wolf and I would taken advantage where it doesn't detract from the flow.

I enjoyed myself, I just wish Wolf was twice as tall. Thanks.

 

[Mulestar]

I enjoyed myself, I just wish Wolf was twice as tall. Thanks.

Yeah no doubt. I agree on the loam...its awesome.

 

[mtnbiker66]

I think the 26 will be a great place to ride if we support it long enough to pan out.I think a lot of good points have been made and things will get reworked as the summer goes on.m Wheeliemert told me that on the first opening day at Snowshoe a lot of trails were just flags on trees,and look at what they have now. With support from the local riders and good feedback like this thread,one day we could be saying...."remember that first day at 26 west".

 

[GPERKINS]

I could defintley see the pressure ryan was going through when we started to spread the word about the park. But I think ryan should have a build day for everyone to come and give advice and of course build. I remember some park like diablo or something that gave lift passes to everyone that helped build for one full day. I think that would help the place a lot.

 

[cranberry]

What I thought?...Fun! The place is brand new so I wasn't expecting Snowshoe or anything of the like. I do wish there was a longer run that flowed back and forth across the grass slope with multiple medium sized hits like the road gap. (maybe 8-10, ~twenty foot doubles?) That gap is where I spent most of the day. I linked a line from the wooden drops to the hips to the road gap but there is just SO much more potential there. I realize this takes a lot time and effort. Maybe some time could be saved by making the take-offs from wood. That would also keep the lips consistent. Every time I hit the road gap the lip was a little different. (almost made me lawn-dart once)
The Village DH tables on top.......remove the tiny one at the beginning and put the dirt in the hole to the left of the small double right after the trees. They would flow much better. (at least for me) I was able to clear them but it was more work than it was worth.
A major change I think needs to happen is the utilize the old race course from the top of the mountain. I would have no problem pushing up there from the shuttle drop off point. That would add quite a bit of time to the run.

 

[DHPeteinSC]

Glad to hear about the tables at the top. I thought it was just me, couldnt seem to get the speed or timing right. Like CB said, I wasnt expecting Snowshoe or the likes but for what Ryan has done its cool. The more people ride the better it will get. You wont hear me whine or complain, Im just glad to have an actual bike park within a few hours of home.

 

[The Big Clyde]

I know in earlier posts someone said that Ryan wasn't a computer guy...maybe they should find someone to do some PR work for them here on Ride Monkey and other sites??? There is a good contingent of their potential customer base who get their ride fix right here.

Diablo did it with hcor.net and now they are here with Ridemonkey. It just seems odd that opening day has passed and no one from 26 has capitalized on it, or followed up with work day plans.

I think the big workday would be a great idea...offer a free lift ticket, lunch, and water and let people bring bikes to test stuff and run in the trails. Small monetary investment yeilding a lot of change...take pictures of the changes and post them.

Have someone with a lot of trail building experience already have walked the land, and have a build plan in place and ready to implement. Contact the trailbuilder at Windrock to come down for a weekend... If you only got 10 people you could get a ton of work done.

 

[MTB_Rob_NC]

I know in earlier posts someone said that Ryan wasn't a computer guy...maybe they should find someone to do some PR work for them here on Ride Monkey and other sites??? There is a good contingent of their potential customer base who get their ride fix right here.

Diablo did it with hcor.net and now they are here with Ridemonkey. It just seems odd that opening day has passed and no one from 26 has capitalized on it, or followed up with work day plans.

I think the big workday would be a great idea...offer a free lift ticket, lunch, and water and let people bring bikes to test stuff and run in the trails. Small monetary investment yeilding a lot of change...take pictures of the changes and post them.

Have someone with a lot of trail building experience already have walked the land, and have a build plan in place and ready to implement. Contact the trailbuilder at Windrock to come down for a weekend... If you only got 10 people you could get a ton of work done.

Those are some really good ideas...

 

[vinnycactus]

i'm interested to see the damage from all of the rain.

 

[jondog]

Those are some really good ideas...

Ditto!!!!

Hey....maybe someone could spring for a Blackberry for Ryan.

 

[Mountain Geeker]

I agree with The Big Clyde's posts. Both of them. And great idea from GPERKINS. I would recommend trying to line up Chris Herndon and Joe Haley for the workday. Make a big deal out of it. We built a pump track and are trying to build some dirt jumps at one of the local parks. We had a fund raiser since our grant didn't come through. Joe lined up Chris for me and we had an awesome turn out and raised lots of cash. And I only advertised it on our local web site. I'm not recommending a fund raiser. I'm just saying that having some people there will help draw others in for the workday. Joe and Chris are awesome guys in my respects.

So that brings me to another idea. Would it be possible to get a grant for these trails even though they are on private land?

In terms of showing support, I think it is much more than just showing up and paying to ride for the day. I doubt seriously that 26 West is hoping to cash in on the lift tickets. It requires people to stay locally and spend money at their facility. Lots of it. Perhaps even purchase an investment property. I'm not suggesting that everybody can or will do that. But I'm guessing that 26 West is expecting that some will. Just trying to look at "support" from their perspective.

I think it must have been Ryan that I was talking to. Anyway, he said the top would not be available for more trail. But that the bottom would. Another 450 feet. He said it was really rocky down through there. I think they need to focus on getting that opened asap. Even if it's only like 1 or 2 really good trails. And make sure they are big bike worthy.

If the longer ride opens up and is big bike worthy, I'd consider bringing my family to stay on site for a long weekends.

 

[GPERKINS]

I agree with MountainGeeker with bringing chris and Joe to the work days, it was kinda funny at the King of the lake series race in Wilkesboro NC, the amount of times I heard Herndon, I sware it was 200 times. Everyone was so excited that he was racing, and he dident disapoint.

I also heard about the extra land at the bottom that was really rocky, I think the build days need to be focused on this area and 26 offer a free lift ticket for a full days of work. and like Mountain Geeker said, make it big bike friendley. If the trails get longer and such, then I, and I'm sure lots of others would consider purchasing investement property, as they have a purfect location being close of Asheville.

I just hope that Ryan sees all of these great ideas and dosent feel like he has let us down, and that we dont want to come back to 26. Because I think this has motivated eveyone to get involved, and make a difference.

 

[GPERKINS]

can anyone send me Ryan's E-mail address