29" DH bikes
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I really want everyone to shut up about 29'ers (I've heard the same shit for the past 10 years and I don't give a fuck) and when one will win a race... The wheel size won't win the race. The racer will win the race. That's it. The fucking racer.
Will a 29'er win a WC race? Yes. One will win a WC race. Why? Cause there's 8 companies making them to be raced on at the WC level. There's probably less companies competing at the WC.
When a single pivot, Horst link, DW or XYZ link won a WC race was it solely because of the suspension? Nope! Besides the years that Gwin was winning most races, what makes the WC fun is that the top spot changes almost every race. Minnar, Hill, Gwin, Hart, Burni, Ratboy, Atherton... They've all seen the winners podium despite the wheel size, suspension links, suspension company, tires, etc...
A "29'er" won't win a race. A top level athlete will win another race.
As Kickstand mentioned a while back (and I strongly agree) you can feel deflection with a 27.5 that I didn't feel on a 26" wheel. I'm not going with a $1600 plastic rim to stiffen things up. Also, I'm 5'-8". I don't need a 29'er. 6'-2"? Maybe.
Let me ride what the F' I wanna ride and don't tell me what I "need" to ride.
Will a 29'er win a WC race? Yes. One will win a WC race. Why? Cause there's 8 companies making them to be raced on at the WC level. There's probably less companies competing at the WC.
When a single pivot, Horst link, DW or XYZ link won a WC race was it solely because of the suspension? Nope! Besides the years that Gwin was winning most races, what makes the WC fun is that the top spot changes almost every race. Minnar, Hill, Gwin, Hart, Burni, Ratboy, Atherton... They've all seen the winners podium despite the wheel size, suspension links, suspension company, tires, etc...
A "29'er" won't win a race. A top level athlete will win another race.
As Kickstand mentioned a while back (and I strongly agree) you can feel deflection with a 27.5 that I didn't feel on a 26" wheel. I'm not going with a $1600 plastic rim to stiffen things up. Also, I'm 5'-8". I don't need a 29'er. 6'-2"? Maybe.
Let me ride what the F' I wanna ride and don't tell me what I "need" to ride.
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A 29er just won a race yesterday, so your long wait is over.
Not sure who was riding to be honest, I was only looking at the wheel size...
Haha, that's the first I've heard that term as well.
I will find many applications for this new knowledge.
It's a GREAT term we use a lot up here.
One thing Nigel said in that interview - Think of the Kidz.
Seriously, it is now a pain to afford anything for a growing kid, especially if they prefer riding down.
20-24-26-27.5 and now 29 are "available" 26 are hard to come by unless you are fine with pre14. This supply will be shrinking. Same will happen with the teh beez.
If things stabilize at 29" it just may become a bit of a pain in the ass for the younger set.
If this happens what are the chances of the bike companies bringing back a 26/27.5 wheelsize for teh Kidz as an intermediate step such as 24 was from 20 to 26?
What about just plain old fun riding - will the 29" just be too much bike for a smaller rider regardless of age or sex? For the average squid riding for fun, I can see the value of wheelsize based upon body size/type.
....or have I just spent too much time in the bongshed?
Seriously, it is now a pain to afford anything for a growing kid, especially if they prefer riding down.
20-24-26-27.5 and now 29 are "available" 26 are hard to come by unless you are fine with pre14. This supply will be shrinking. Same will happen with the teh beez.
If things stabilize at 29" it just may become a bit of a pain in the ass for the younger set.
If this happens what are the chances of the bike companies bringing back a 26/27.5 wheelsize for teh Kidz as an intermediate step such as 24 was from 20 to 26?
What about just plain old fun riding - will the 29" just be too much bike for a smaller rider regardless of age or sex? For the average squid riding for fun, I can see the value of wheelsize based upon body size/type.
....or have I just spent too much time in the bongshed?
A few companies have frames where the wheel size depends on frame size (ie small = 26", med = 27.5, lg = 29) but so far just for xc and trail bikes. Kinda doubt dh does enough volume to justify that kind of setup given the cost of tooling, etc.
EDIT: my kid just called dibs on my "outdated" FB-10...I cried cutting the Thomson post so I could slam the seat...
There are rumors that UCI will lift the "equal wheel sizes F+R" rule soon for mountainbikes. So that will allow 29" front and 27.5 rear wheeled bikes that look moto as f*** and will stop these kicks in the butt by the rear wheel for vertically challenged riders.
Did someone say Big Hit?
Did someone say Big Hit?
Hence the money and I also forgot interest...
Also legions of BRO fans in bro-dozers
So looking at splits, shows 1st split to Bruni, 2nd split to Giwn which is over 3 minutes into the course. Minus is slide out (he called it a crash), he's close to Minnar and who knows, it's Gwin and he keeps going faster as the run progresses. So we'll leave that alone, as even without it I believe Minnar still takes it and it's close.
The thing that stands out to me, is the top and middle sections don't show an advantage, and over 3 minutes into a sub 5 minute course, Gwin was faster. I also believe the upper and middle sections are the harder parts where 29 is supposed to shine. It didn't, Gwin was fastest over the longest length of the course on the sections that would expect a larger wheel to shine.
So all in all this race showed nothing to a very slim margin if anything, if you actually take an analytical look at the results. Guess more races will illustrate whats up but this shows it's the rider, not the wheels, that win races. but hey....
The thing that stands out to me, is the top and middle sections don't show an advantage, and over 3 minutes into a sub 5 minute course, Gwin was faster. I also believe the upper and middle sections are the harder parts where 29 is supposed to shine. It didn't, Gwin was fastest over the longest length of the course on the sections that would expect a larger wheel to shine.
So all in all this race showed nothing to a very slim margin if anything, if you actually take an analytical look at the results. Guess more races will illustrate whats up but this shows it's the rider, not the wheels, that win races. but hey....
KInda, but if you really want a fair comparison you would have get the same rider to do back to back runs on the different wheel sizes.
Gwin vs. Minnaar may not be a level playing field
of course. but racing is where it will be illustrated. Of note minnar has won here on similar margins.
Get real you two. There isn't any rider who can replicate 2 runs the same back to back down that entire Ft William track.
There is no FAIR comparisson.
Ride what you feel best on. for Greg that's the bigger bike/wheels. Aaron probably doesn't even know (yet)
Pretty funny is that Minnaar was one of the most outspoken persons in favor for banning skinsuits because they make "the sport look bad", ignoring that they give a huge advantage on a course like Fort Bill.
Now he is arguing for 29ers because "we want to be as fast as possible" although they make the sport look bad. Pretty hypocrite IMO.
Now he is arguing for 29ers because "we want to be as fast as possible" although they make the sport look bad. Pretty hypocrite IMO.
I don't really know either way, but another argument in favour of 29rs is how you are less tired after the rough stuff. So maybe Greg was less tired after the tree section, and had more to give. Also, I would think the motorway is another spot the 29rs would have an advantage, being able to carry speed a bit better in the straights.
in the end, I'm not saying my arguments have any validity. I think my only point is there are so many variables at play, that narrowing it down simply to wheel size is probably not going to work.
I think we will only know the effects of wheel size at the end of the season, when we see if the 29r riders have jumped up a few spots in the overall ranking, jumping ahead of people still on 650b...
I actually think Minnaar looks better on the 29er... he's an amazing rider who's always looked smooth and stylish (even on those shitty Oranges)... and still is.. but looks slightly less goofy.
I can't stand riding them myself. But'm not 6'5"
Nah. Probably won't. And it won't matter. This entire industry is based on FOMO. They've already proven that something doesn't have to legitimately be better for customers and producers to jump on board full steam. New, and "something you don't own yet but someone else will" is the only thing that matters.
We don't need to see 'the effects of wheelsize'. They've existed since about 1998. Go ride one and you can see the effects of wheelsize in about 40 seconds. Everyone who actually rides already knows what they do.
i'd also argue that the manufacturers that can throw the most weight behind 29 are going to be the ones that can afford the fastest racers. While spec has been a bit slow, santa cruz is usually quick to adapt, and they have a pretty stacked deck in terms of talent. If YT had the manufacturing ability and desire to sell people big wheeled bikes, you can bet gwin would be on one.
tl;dr minnarr is one of the best racers on one of the best teams, of course he's going to win.
tl;dr minnarr is one of the best racers on one of the best teams, of course he's going to win.
Yea, it definatly suits him. As a 6'1" guy I'm interested to try them, but I don't like the prospect of truing wheels more often which I'm doing with 650b over 26, even with 'better and stiffer' rims than ever before.
Yea for sure it might help smooth it out a bit. Will see how it goes. The gist of my post was basically saying this isn't actual evidence, and doesn't support the "5 seconds over 2 minutes" in reality, even though Greg won. fractions is more than likely, and it's 99.999999% rider over the wheelsize imo.
IMO until/unless you've tested anything back to back in a single-variable (or close to it as possible) scenario, you don't actually know.
Comparing different riders over single runs isn't valid, what is far more useful is a single rider over multiple averaged runs on the same track - I believe there was such data published on Pinkbike recently (tested by the reviever) for different wheel sizes - if you care about this stuff, it's probably worth starting by skimming that. Obviously you can only measure speed, not enjoyment (unless you do the testing yourself), but still useful.
I wasn't crazy about the idea of switching to 650b until I took the time to convert a bike back and forth while resetting geometry (keeping the build identical apart from wheels) and testing on the same tracks. I was lucky enough to have a bike that fit both wheel sizes (and loaner parts available + the adjustability) to do this. I'd ridden plenty of 650b bikes before, but it was only completely clear and polarising once I took the time to do the back-to-back testing on the *same* build and setup. I don't really think kidwoo's take on this is valid, just because you "ride" and "rode a 29er trailbike once" doesn't mean you've performed anything near objective testing, so you don't know - you just think you know.
I'm not saying anyone should switch to 29, and I'm not about to rush into it myself either.
However what I learned is that until you try it objectively (or as objectively as possible - which no one posting here has done from what I can see), you don't actually know which is better - from either perspective - "being faster" or "suiting you". The other thing is, just because it costs money and someone is making a profit from you, doesn't mean it's not better. I certainly can't afford to make changes wily-nily, but on the other hand I've made the mistake of letting "not having access to it" or "not having money for it" cloud my judgement in the past and try not to do that now.
Obviously there are always compromises involved (some of which I've commented on in this thread - because they are purely mathematical: inferior braking performance, increased weight for equal strength/stiffness ). But what you can't do is decide if the benefits outweigh the tradeoffs (whether it's for being fast OR fun in my experience) until you perform proper limited-variable testing.
If anyone wants an objective view on this, I reckon @buckoW is the man to quiz on it. He's currently got two Gamblers built up with very similar geometry, but one has 27.5 and one has 29 (and a 49 fork from memory). Both super cool bikes with awesome builds, and he literally rides them interchangeably.
I should add that I do think it will probably make tracks lamer / less technical, and as I've already said - cause problems with wheel strength, overall bike weight, and braking performance (especially for people who don't get free parts) - but I don't think internet whinging will stop the change if it's coming either way. I'd like to try it out myself when I can.
Comparing different riders over single runs isn't valid, what is far more useful is a single rider over multiple averaged runs on the same track - I believe there was such data published on Pinkbike recently (tested by the reviever) for different wheel sizes - if you care about this stuff, it's probably worth starting by skimming that. Obviously you can only measure speed, not enjoyment (unless you do the testing yourself), but still useful.
I wasn't crazy about the idea of switching to 650b until I took the time to convert a bike back and forth while resetting geometry (keeping the build identical apart from wheels) and testing on the same tracks. I was lucky enough to have a bike that fit both wheel sizes (and loaner parts available + the adjustability) to do this. I'd ridden plenty of 650b bikes before, but it was only completely clear and polarising once I took the time to do the back-to-back testing on the *same* build and setup. I don't really think kidwoo's take on this is valid, just because you "ride" and "rode a 29er trailbike once" doesn't mean you've performed anything near objective testing, so you don't know - you just think you know.
I'm not saying anyone should switch to 29, and I'm not about to rush into it myself either.
However what I learned is that until you try it objectively (or as objectively as possible - which no one posting here has done from what I can see), you don't actually know which is better - from either perspective - "being faster" or "suiting you". The other thing is, just because it costs money and someone is making a profit from you, doesn't mean it's not better. I certainly can't afford to make changes wily-nily, but on the other hand I've made the mistake of letting "not having access to it" or "not having money for it" cloud my judgement in the past and try not to do that now.
Obviously there are always compromises involved (some of which I've commented on in this thread - because they are purely mathematical: inferior braking performance, increased weight for equal strength/stiffness ). But what you can't do is decide if the benefits outweigh the tradeoffs (whether it's for being fast OR fun in my experience) until you perform proper limited-variable testing.
If anyone wants an objective view on this, I reckon @buckoW is the man to quiz on it. He's currently got two Gamblers built up with very similar geometry, but one has 27.5 and one has 29 (and a 49 fork from memory). Both super cool bikes with awesome builds, and he literally rides them interchangeably.
I should add that I do think it will probably make tracks lamer / less technical, and as I've already said - cause problems with wheel strength, overall bike weight, and braking performance (especially for people who don't get free parts) - but I don't think internet whinging will stop the change if it's coming either way. I'd like to try it out myself when I can.
@Udi: I just need to comment on your reference to the PB article with their "test" and timing. The data is not statistically significant as the variability for each wheel size is larger than between. Again one of those pseudo scientific tests that the bike industry is pushing to "show evidence" that something new is superior.
On the other hand, something that has been shown to make you significantly faster (aerodynamics) is ignored. The main reason might be that a skinsuit only costs 100 bucks and leaving your peak off your helmet is free, so the industry can't sell a new bike with new wheel size and "standards" to us. I can see why they are doing it, but how the bike media is not calling BS on this is beyond me. That way they make themselves just the extensions of the marketing departments of the companies. Sad!
On the other hand, something that has been shown to make you significantly faster (aerodynamics) is ignored. The main reason might be that a skinsuit only costs 100 bucks and leaving your peak off your helmet is free, so the industry can't sell a new bike with new wheel size and "standards" to us. I can see why they are doing it, but how the bike media is not calling BS on this is beyond me. That way they make themselves just the extensions of the marketing departments of the companies. Sad!
I agree with the gist of what Udi is saying, but yea that data isn't great and actually shows 27.5 faster in one section, and the spread is so large it's pretty much pointless. Vital did a better test on it.
I think a lot is also psychological, in a very psychological sport. Thinking you have an advantage can turn into a more relaxed rider, which is usually faster.
I think a lot is also psychological, in a very psychological sport. Thinking you have an advantage can turn into a more relaxed rider, which is usually faster.
Well you're kind of misunderstanding my perspective a bit I think. To me 'better' is not the equivalent of 'faster on one of the 7 WC tracks getting used'.
Do you race? I don't anymore and was never full bore committed to it even when I did. To me better is not getting sodomized by a wheel every time I need to get behind my bike, which in dh, I don't care who you are, that needs to happen sometimes. For someone over 6' not as big of a deal. If Cathro was serious in his video, it sounds like that exact scenario killed Gee Atherton.
I've ridden a ton of bikes. When every single 29er I've ridden regardless of tires, wheel build, travel, or geometry has the trait of having to lean it over farther than I'd like to make an arc, yes, that's wheelsize. You don't need identical bikes with that one variable to know that. If you do you're kind of hopeless. It's also common sense.
Now, in the context which I think you mean it, faster on any given particular race course, of course real testing back to back over a big sample size tells you what's fastest, just like any other component, or fabric in your underwear you want to test. I knew the answer to that as well. Somewhere like leogang or ft bill. Hell yeah you're going to maintain momentum better than on your same bike with 27.5" wheels.
There are a lot of people out there like me (don't race seriously but like riding fast). So yes, this bums me out because I know how I like bikes to handle. One WC rider gaining whatever time with a wheel switch is pretty much irrelevant to us. But what bikes we buy based on how they handle very much is.