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29er Trail bike for a DH’er

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marshalolson

Turbo Monkey
May 25, 2006
1,774
532
Pslide said:
This feeling never really goes away. I think because the BB is significantly lower than the rear axle and the bikes inherently have to have a longer chainstay, they just don't pull up easily.
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i dunno man, my 29'er hard tail has a .2" shorter stay than my 26" trail bike (16.8 vs. 17.0)

once you get a slacker head angle (69 on my hard tail), a short stem (65mm) and wide bars (30.5), its like riding faster more stable dirt jumper, not a clunky POS.

obviously getting a FS 29er under 17" stay will be more challenging.
 
P

Pslide

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
1,373
0
Feet on the ground, head in the clouds.
marshalolson said:
obviously getting a FS 29er under 17" stay will be more challenging.
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Your HT sounds like a fun bike...

The Prime along with most of it's competition comes in around 17 3/4" on chainstays length. That's about 1" longer than what I prefer on my 26" bike. I think there are one or two other FS 29ers that managed to get it under 17 1/2". And I know Keith is trying to shrink it for the Prime production model.
 
motobutane

motobutane

Monkey
Apr 27, 2010
516
0
WNC
Pslide said:
This feeling never really goes away. I think because the BB is significantly lower than the rear axle and the bikes inherently have to have a longer chainstay, they just don't pull up easily. This sometimes leads to a little more tendency to steamroll stuff that you would have otherwise popped over on a 26.

That said, 29ers jump great, and once up to speed this problem mostly disappears. I am also learning to exaggerate my body movements a bit more so I can get a little pop out of corners etc. It helps if you have a dropper post.

In the end, I think the grounded feeling is more of just a negative perception than a real detractor out on the trail, but I will admit it takes a little fun out of the equation, and probably trades it for more control.
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Sounds like you need to change back to a 26er!
 
frorider

frorider

Monkey
Jul 21, 2004
971
20
cali
marshalolson said:
i dunno man, my 29'er hard tail has a .2" shorter stay than my 26" trail bike (16.8 vs. 17.0)

once you get a slacker head angle (69 on my hard tail), a short stem (65mm) and wide bars (30.5), its like riding faster more stable dirt jumper, not a clunky POS.

obviously getting a FS 29er under 17" stay will be more challenging.
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agree with all your points. as i've posted on tgr, the yelli screamy with big tires and the right bar/stem is a blast. a 16.9" CS really helps counteract the big bottom bracket drop inherent to 29ers.

I have been underwhelmed so far by FS 29ers. I spent a day on a lenz behemoth (5 inch travel, marz 140 fork up front, 17.375 CS) and while the overall geo didn't feel bad, the primitive-feeling suspension, at least w/ the stock fox shock, made it ride pretty meh overall.

I suppose I could get a transition bandit29 frame cheap at the LBS, and build it up w/ 29er wheels/build kit from another bike, but I'm feeling too lazy to do even that much. I'd rather wait until next year when the good 650b FS bikes are on the market.
 
Jm_

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,508
10,986
AK
DhDork said:
Photo says Holbert, but from this angle, I can't distinguish where you are at.
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Doesn't look like Holbert to me, the rock-pile is more level. Looks kinda more like Goat Camp or some areas I've seen near Tucson. Could be wrong though. I love Holbert, especially the first switchbacks after the overlook area.
 
Jm_

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
20,508
10,986
AK
I'll probably make my next bike a long-travel 29er to take the place of my long travel all-mtn/light freeride 26er and heavy-duty FR/DH 26er. There are minuses for the maneuverability, there are advantages for carrying speed. There are places and rides where I'd want a 26er primarily, and places where I'd want the 29er. You can usually adapt pretty well to different conditions though.

Several things have held back the 29er "DHer/long travel" bikes. One is the lack of ability to fit in coil shocks, or even come with them standard. Even the medium-compression RP23s can be pretty harsh, and no one wants a bike that jack-hammers you on every bump just so it can pedal a little better. This is less of an issue than it was a few years back, and some of these bikes do pretty good with an air shock, but still...Then there's simply rear wheel travel. I already have a 29er, I've ridden several FS 29ers, and there is no substitute for travel. The 120mm 29ers feel like 120mm, and the 150mm ones feel like 150mm. The 29er wheel does not "feel" like "more travel" in my experience and riding. What it does do is carry speed better in rough sections, but sometimes that's dependent on if you can hold on, which isn't always possible given the travel. 160-170 (165?) starts to hit the target IMO, but I could make due with a little less for an "all around" bike. Then there's forks, the WBs aren't the best solution, the manitou one isn't either. It's a LONG LONG way from the headtube to the axle for a 29er, in other places where a 1.5 might cut it, I think this should probably be DC for the "DH" bike. Tires have at least gotten fairly reasonable, so that's good. Bringing all these together in the right package, geometry, and the above considerations is pretty challenging. I have some 29er fanatic friends, but I've been holding off on a good "all around" replacement bike for a while, because I want it to be right and not be riding with barely enough travel and crazy geometry for the funnest downhills, or some spindly or flexy XC frame, or even some monster 47lber because carbon or other decent lightweight processes haven't found there way here yet. At least the future is looking up, and I think dedicated 26er downhill bikes are the LAST thing that 29ers would ever replace, but I do see a possibility that downhill bikes might evolve to 650b or something and stabilize there a few years from now.
 
Sandwich

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
22,092
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borcester rhymes
Just switched to a scott scale from my Voodoo, and the geometry made a world of difference. Had a blast riding the same trails that were pretty miserable on my Voodoo just last week.
 
mattmatt86

mattmatt86

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2005
5,347
10
Bleedmore, Murderland
Sandwich said:
any time on it yet? if I could afford one, I'd own it.

Anybody spend any time on a honzo?
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No but I have the Diamondback Mason which is pretty similar to the Honzo. It's been a phenomenal bike, it's the first trail bike I've had in years that I could see myself owning for more than a season. It's surprisingly nimble, I've taken it on big moto style jumps and can even whip it around the local pump track for a few laps. I've gone on 20-30 mile XC rides no problem, DH trails, it's really a great do it all bike.

 
Sandwich

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
22,092
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borcester rhymes
mattmatt86 said:
No but I have the Diamondback Mason which is pretty similar to the Honzo. It's been a phenomenal bike, it's the first trail bike I've had in years that I could see myself owning for more than a season. It's surprisingly nimble, I've taken it on big moto style jumps and can even whip it around the local pump track for a few laps. I've gone on 20-30 mile XC rides no problem, DH trails, it's really a great do it all bike.

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neat dude! I had a scott scale which came in around 17.2" chainstays. I loved it and am looking to replace it, but i wouldn't mind a more freeridey capable hardtail. The kona taro looks rad too.
 
weedkilla

weedkilla

Monkey
Jul 6, 2008
362
10
I've got two 29er trailbikes, a Honzo and a Norco Shinobi.
After I got the honzo I nearly sold the Shinobi - the shinobi is faster but the honzo is sooooooo much fun.
I bought a Pike for the shinobi and when it arrives I'll give that a whirl. It really does over run the abilities of a revelation.

Honestly the shinobi is the closest thing to a dh bike you can pedal that I have ridden, the way it carves the same arc through a corner as my dh bike is what seals the deal for me, there is no need to adapt my riding between the two.
It weighs 12.5-13kg and I really believe it is an amazing bike. I'm sure that the latest crop of 29ers with short chainstays, low bb and slack head angles would all be similar, the shinobi was just the first "mainstream" 29er duallie to go that way. I've had 18 months on mine, and it wont go until I ride something that is obviously better. That may be a 650b - but I'm still undecided.
 
P

Pslide

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
1,373
0
Feet on the ground, head in the clouds.
Sandwich said:
any time on it yet? if I could afford one, I'd own it.

Anybody spend any time on a honzo?
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I have a Canfield Nimble 9 which is very similar in geo to the Honzo. I run it with chainstays slammed forward to 16.3. I love this bike. For carving singletrack it is so precise and responsive, and FUN. Front comes up easily and with a short stem you can really work it...just like a 26" bike, although I've not back to backed for comparison.

I also have a Prime (mentioned above), and like weedkilla says, it feels like a DH bike, except lighter and you can pedal up. It's amazing on the downs, but too much bike for the where I live in Ohio. I'm going to take my Legend and my Prime to 7 Springs this Sunday and see what's quicker...I reckon it will be close.

Anyway, most of my life is confined to XC these days, so I ride my Nimble 9 all the time and it has breathed new life into boring trails. I'm sure the Honzo would be the same.
 
weedkilla

weedkilla

Monkey
Jul 6, 2008
362
10
If you do choose a nimble 9 or honzo - dont kid yourself - it wont (shouldnt?) be a lightweight, namby pamby, strava bike.

For a start you'll have a frame weight that rivals a sensible duallie including shock, then you'll ride it like you stole it - so you'll quickly realise that weight weenie wheels and tyres have no place on these bikes.
Weight there is the biggest part of a bike.

Just sayin....
 
Sandwich

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
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borcester rhymes
I now have my eye on the taro. Apparently frame weights are 4.1lb for a large, versus the honzo's 6.75. I subscribe to the "steel is real" mentality, but as reinforced as it is, I have an impossible time believing it'll make a difference. The taro also drops the sliding stays, which I won't need, and runs a normal 135mm hub, which is also nice. And the headtube.

I'm eyeballing one of these primarily to replace my DH bike, as when baby comes, downhilling goes. I have an excellent trailbike which I really like (650b cdale rush) but loved my 29er scott scale for it's pure speed and responsiveness. I'd love to replace that bike and have something that loves being thrown around on local trails...seems like a no brainer for a bike like this.
 
weedkilla

weedkilla

Monkey
Jul 6, 2008
362
10
If you could get a bare frame for the right price, and I was set on 29" - i'd hit that.
If I was going again at a complete build I'd look at the at the Kona explosif - cos 650b.
 
Sandwich

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
22,092
7,348
borcester rhymes
weedkilla said:
If you could get a bare frame for the right price, and I was set on 29" - i'd hit that.
If I was going again at a complete build I'd look at the at the Kona explosif - cos 650b.
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I don't see the point of a 650b hardtail. It's like drinking a decaffeinated redbull...what's the point? If you can get sub 17 chainstays on a niner, you win! A long travel FS bike is another story...

I can't get the tardo frame only, but as I would have to buy all new everything for a niner anyways, the thought of grabbing a complete and swapping a few parts around isn't too crazy.
 
P

Pslide

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
1,373
0
Feet on the ground, head in the clouds.
My Nimble 9 is built up to 28 lbs...maybe a 28.5 since I added a dropper post. Lightest bike I've ever owned, lol.

I highly recommend spending extra on a very light and stiff wheelset for a 29er hardtail like Honzo or Canfield. I built up carbon rims from Light Bicycle onto King hubs and used some fairly beefy spokes, and am really happy. I think this is the best combination of lightweight and stiff, and I think it really offsets some of the negatives of 29ers in terms of acceleration and wheel flex.
 
mattmatt86

mattmatt86

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2005
5,347
10
Bleedmore, Murderland
Sandwich said:
I don't see the point of a 650b hardtail. It's like drinking a decaffeinated redbull...what's the point? If you can get sub 17 chainstays on a niner, you win! A long travel FS bike is another story...

I can't get the tardo frame only, but as I would have to buy all new everything for a niner anyways, the thought of grabbing a complete and swapping a few parts around isn't too crazy.
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Let me know if you're interested in the Mason, I can get you the complete or Frame.
 
weedkilla

weedkilla

Monkey
Jul 6, 2008
362
10
You may be right - I haven't tried 650b yet. I do know that 29er wheels, a hardtail that encourages me to ride like a douche and a riding style that emulates MC Hammer on crack results in rear wheels that die young.

NB - I've been shuttling it. Its as much dh hardtail as it is trailbike.
 
weedkilla

weedkilla

Monkey
Jul 6, 2008
362
10
Pslide said:
I highly recommend spending extra on a very light and stiff wheelset for a 29er hardtail like Honzo or Canfield. I built up carbon rims from Light Bicycle onto King hubs and used some fairly beefy spokes, and am really happy. I think this is the best combination of lightweight and stiff, and I think it really offsets some of the negatives of 29ers in terms of acceleration and wheel flex.
Click to expand...
This may be great advice. I will probably try something similar soon.
 
mattmatt86

mattmatt86

Turbo Monkey
Feb 9, 2005
5,347
10
Bleedmore, Murderland
Pslide said:
My Nimble 9 is built up to 28 lbs...maybe a 28.5 since I added a dropper post. Lightest bike I've ever owned, lol.

I highly recommend spending extra on a very light and stiff wheelset for a 29er hardtail like Honzo or Canfield. I built up carbon rims from Light Bicycle onto King hubs and used some fairly beefy spokes, and am really happy. I think this is the best combination of lightweight and stiff, and I think it really offsets some of the negatives of 29ers in terms of acceleration and wheel flex.
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Couldn't agree more, I bought a set of the E.13 completes which are amazingly stiff. A set of really stiff well built wheels can really transform a 29er.
 
Sandwich

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
22,092
7,348
borcester rhymes
weedkilla said:
You may be right - I haven't tried 650b yet. I do know that 29er wheels, a hardtail that encourages me to ride like a douche and a riding style that emulates MC Hammer on crack results in rear wheels that die young.

NB - I've been shuttling it. Its as much dh hardtail as it is trailbike.
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i've owned both (29er FS with **** geometry, 29er HT with almost-funbike geometry, and a 650b FS with relatively short stays and normal trail geo). The 650b is almost as good as 29er wheels, but the bigger wheels just destroy rough trails. I can see if your mangling your wheels, or need the absolute stiffest response out of them, but once you get the stays reasonable short, and you put a stiff front end on your bike, I didn't notice the downsides of the wagon wheels. I'd be on them for my FS bike if I could afford one of the next-gens with short stays.

The explosif does have reynolds toobz though.
 
P

Pslide

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
1,373
0
Feet on the ground, head in the clouds.
Sandwich said:
but once you get the stays reasonable short, and you put a stiff front end on your bike, I didn't notice the downsides of the wagon wheels.
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I pretty much agree with this, although it kinda depends on rider preference and terrain as well, but that goes without saying.

Can we have a conversation on the best aggressive 29er tires out there? There are some new ones and I can't find any reviews I trust...

What are people's preferences for a ~800g good cornering and fast rolling tire?

2.3 High Roller 2 (910g)
2.3 DHR 2 (850g)
2.3 Purgatory (730g)
2.3 Butcher (810g)
2.4 Chunky Monkey (900g)

Right now I'm leaning towards DHR 2's for F and R, just because I trust Maxxis, like the tread pattern, and the weight is pretty good. I am worried about it being a little too slow rolling for a hardtail meant to rip XC trails.

Reviewers seem to favor the Chunky Monkey, just not sure...

Butcher seems like a safe bet, but occasionally hear issues of side knobs flexing too much?

I have tried 2.4 Ardents and don't like the cornering characteristics. Wash out too early. I'm currently running 2.2 Vredestein Black Panther Xtremes, which are about as close to the holy grail of tires that I've found for weight vs. grip vs. rolling speed. But I still feel like I need a bit more grip when I'm really pushing it on harder downhills.

So has anyone actually ridden the above in 29er size and can recommend them?
 
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