[lobsterCT]

There is a lot of expertise here at the monkey and I have a welding question someone might know the answer to.

If 6061/6063 starts in the T6 condition and is welded, is it T0, T3, or T4 a few days after welding in the as is condition?

Thanks very much for any information.

LobsterCT

 

[kidwoo]

The weakened condition after another heat cycle is known as the karpiel state.

 

[joeg]

There is a lot of expertise here at the monkey and I have a welding question someone might know the answer to.

If 6061/6063 starts in the T6 condition and is welded, is it T0, T3, or T4 a few days after welding in the as is condition?

Thanks very much for any information.

LobsterCT

I don't believe its any of the above, as the heat that goes into the material during welding does not create a standard designation, as its not consistently applied across the material. You don't get a good solution heat treat unless you control both the precise temperature and time the material is held at.

 

[lobsterCT]

The Karpiel state - LOL.

@joeg - Thank you sir, for your response. There is a lot of contradictory info on the web about this, but that matches up with what a heat treating vendor told me this afternoon.

I built a custom Clydesdale sized front triangle for my DH bike, and I'm having a hard time with the heat treating issue. Seems like they aren't very interested in you unless you are building for the military or are a large corporation and a lot of them don't have the equipment or basket size needed for the work.

 

[roflbox]

The Karpiel state - LOL.

@joeg - Thank you sir, for your response. There is a lot of contradictory info on the web about this, but that matches up with what a heat treating vendor told me this afternoon.

I built a custom Clydesdale sized front triangle for my DH bike, and I'm having a hard time with the heat treating issue. Seems like they aren't very interested in you unless you are building for the military or are a large corporation and a lot of them don't have the equipment or basket size needed for the work.

pics?

 

[lobsterCT]

 

[boostindoubles]

Oscar used to heat treat frames in the baking ovens at the bakery/restaurant his family ran. Those were some good times back in the day.

 

[roflbox]

View attachment 134259

is that a GG DH front triangle?

Looks great!

 

[lobsterCT]

Thanks Roflbox - yes, an extremely crude approximation of one.

 

[roflbox]

View attachment 134261

Thanks Roflbox - yes, an extremely crude approximation of one.

Where did you get the fancy hydroformed tubes?

 

[lobsterCT]

Not hydroformed unfortunately, I just bought a cheap manual tube bender and used a long leverage bar and went to town.

 

[toodles]

Can you take it to a powdercoater and get them to bake it for you? Would that approximate a heat treating cycle?

IIRC, one of the frame repairers here claimed that powdercoating a repaired frame and baking it was considered a heat-treating cycle.

*disclaimer* I have no idea if this works, could just be a viable easy option if it does.

 

[lobsterCT]

I don't know for sure, but my best guess so far is that that would be like the aging part of the process and would help some, but for the full effect, it has to heat up very close to the melting temp first, and be dropped right away into a water or water glycol solution. Within 7 seconds or less. I think this makes uniformity on all areas of the metal, and sets it all to T0 at once, and then you bake it to age it to T6.

 

[jeremy_2640]

Why don't you just take it too a heat treater - it would be super cheap to get it done. I did that with a whole bunch of frames I made years ago and from memory it cost a slab of beer. (~$50). It was annealed and taken to T6.

 

[lobsterCT]

Damn, I wish I had your contact close by. I did this once like 20 years ago when I lived in AZ and it cost me about $500. Haven't been able to even get a quote here in the north east yet, but it has only been a few days, so we will see.

 

[HAB]

Can you take it to a powdercoater and get them to bake it for you? Would that approximate a heat treating cycle?

IIRC, one of the frame repairers here claimed that powdercoating a repaired frame and baking it was considered a heat-treating cycle.

*disclaimer* I have no idea if this works, could just be a viable easy option if it does.

Not going to do much. The first step of actually heat treating would go a lot hotter, and then quench.

 

[mtg]

After you weld it, it’s in the O condition near the welds. If you wait long enough, it becomes T4 naturally. For T6, it needs to be solution heat treated. PM me and I’ll put you in contact with a heat treater that will do a one off.
Btw, you did a damn good job approximating a GG/DH tube set!

 

[mtg]

Can you take it to a powdercoater and get them to bake it for you? Would that approximate a heat treating cycle?

IIRC, one of the frame repairers here claimed that powdercoating a repaired frame and baking it was considered a heat-treating cycle.

*disclaimer* I have no idea if this works, could just be a viable easy option if it does.

That works for 7005 (age hardening alloy), and does not work at all for 6061 (heat treatable alloy).

 

[kidwoo]

it’s in the O condition

Man, I haven't been in the O condition for weeks.

 

[roflbox]

That works for 7005 (age hardening alloy), and does not work at all for 6061 (heat treatable alloy).

 

[jonKranked]

hey @lobsterCT are you actually in CT? i'd suggest also getting in touch with FTW, he could probably help get you in touch with a heat treater.

 

[jonKranked]

Man, I haven't been in the O condition for weeks.

that's what happens when you're stuck in the karpiel state

 

[bagtagley]

Nice work on the frame!

You got a university or technical college nearby? The University and CC here have fab shops and the ability to do this sort of thing.

 

[lobsterCT]

Hey Everybody,

Just wanted to say thank you for the kind words, likes, and suggestions. MTG and JoeG have both very generously offered information/contact on how to accomplish this heat treating, so I feel success is in reach.

Love the Monkey, it is a pretty amazing cast of characters here,

Best,

LobsterCT

PS, @kidwoo - that is no way to live my man!

 

[StiHacka]

MTG and JoeG

The only two bike brands I am giving my business anymore.

 

[toodles]

The only two bike brands I am giving my business anymore.

Nah Sick Bicycles and Lahar seem real nice too hey.

 

[velocipedist]

Late to the party, but here is the gist and I would recommend picking up this book.

 

[TrumbullHucker]

I have been taking our parts up to American Heat Treat in Monroe for what its worth. ( If you are from CT i dunno )

@mtg with the knowledge drop
OP w the homemade skills
This thread is full of win


What kinda TIG machine you boyos running?

 

[jonKranked]

View attachment 134259

That is a tiny saddle on your megaderp

 

[velocipedist]

Apologies finally got unpacked. In addition to Brooks, this Smith book is bible level. If you really want to nerd out we can use the this ternary isothermal:

https://materialsdata.nist.gov/bitstream/handle/11115/227/AlMgSi Phase Diagram from ASM Center.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y

to better gauge precipitate growth to tailor your heat treat in order to achieve the proper microstructure to achieve your desired mechanical properties. Looks like you found a heat treater, but I figured you might want to know the basis for said heat treatment regimen.

Sweet home build, excited to see it finished in non-karpiel glory.

Cannot fathom how one would even think to do coating prior to heat treat....

 

[lobsterCT]

I have been taking our parts up to American Heat Treat in Monroe for what its worth. ( If you are from CT i dunno )

@mtg with the knowledge drop
OP w the homemade skills
This thread is full of win


What kinda TIG machine you boyos running?

Hey Trumbull - They are my best guess for a local option. Thank you for the suggestion. They seem like they have the capability. I've emailed, and will give it a couple weeks, then follow up with a call. If there is someone cool there to talk to, a name would be appreciated.

This project was done on a miller 350.

 

[lobsterCT]

Thanks for stopping by Velocipedist. I was hoping someone with your background was here. I'll pick up both of the texts you suggested. In the short term, I have a question I'd like to run by you, but I need to put a bit more time into it before I post.

 

[lobsterCT]

@jonKranked , That is kind of dual purpose, that works with my peculiar quirks.

I'm pretty harsh on equipment and break most things on bikes sooner or later. Saint cranks and Derby DH lay up rims have been rare exceptions to that generality. Saddles are pretty easy prey. Doesn't take much to bend Ti rails for me. That one is steel with really short rails front and rear. Its like $10, and holds up a long time. Eventually the plastic breaks, not the rails. We have short punchy climbs in Groton by the sound in the glacial rubble, so I can get away with not perching on the front of a longer saddle, and I like it out of the way for slow rock crawling.

I also like taking the megatrail to the downhill parks. Its a demon on the little bit smoother stuff. At killington for example, I put it in low and slack, put Double downs on it, and use the higher compression damping circuit on the rear shock. I like a full dh bike for the upper mountain served by the K2 gondola. But with the exception of the the old goat skull race track, I like the megatrail better for the lower half of the mountain served by rams head and snow shed. Its full coiled and the small saddle and a 180 dropper gets the saddle way out of the way. ( I know some prefer a larger "3rd" contact point). I have more degrees of freedom in the sense the bike can rotate a little further under me for pitch, roll, and yaw.

 

[StiHacka]

killington

 

[TrumbullHucker]

Hey Trumbull - They are my best guess for a local option. Thank you for the suggestion. They seem like they have the capability. I've emailed, and will give it a couple weeks, then follow up with a call. If there is someone cool there to talk to, a name would be appreciated.

This project was done on a miller 350.

pm'd

 

[velocipedist]

Aging Characteristics of 6061T4

Table on Aluminum alloy temper designations

 

[Tantrum Cycles]

to better gauge precipitate growth

 

[velocipedist]

To know for sure would require metallographic analysis i.e. destructive sampling followed by polishing and appropriate etching to see the microstructure under optical microscope.

 

[lobsterCT]

Build update:

I ended up using a heat treater in Colorado that MTG recommended. I was worried that the frame would distort during the quenching process and made a steel structure to hold alignments in place during quenching, but ended up not using it. The heat treater thought it would pull on the aluminum while it was soft. I had no other good heat treating options, so I agreed to do it without the jig, and in hindsight he was correct. They frame stayed nice and straight, and built up without any problems.

Here is how it looked after treating

It showed up a couple of days before a Killington trip, so I did a quick seat tube and head tube reaming and threw together a quick build. The spiral reamer for the seat tube worked a lot better than the straight flute reamer for the head tube.

Everything worked OK, and the bike survived 7 days at Killington under a Clydesdale rider.

After I got home, I tore it down to the bare frame, and looked it over carefully for any cracks. Everything looked good, so I wire brushed it so the front triangle matched the rear triangle a little better. Then, took my time and did a more careful build.

I'm really grateful for Ridemonkey. there is a tremendous knowledge base here, and people were kind enough to share information with me. I really enjoyed the frame building process and found it relaxing. I would like to keep building, and learning, and getting better at it. Tentatively planning to use the idler from my broken Jedi frame and to try a single high pivot for my next project.

 

[slimshady]

Argh, where is the reputation button when you need it most?

Awesome journey man, thanks so much for sharing it with us!