[centromachetes]

Are 9-speed cassettes and chains durable? It seems that they get more so over the years, as I remember many years ago when 7-speed cassettes were first emerging, people would say that they weren't very strong. If 8-speeds are stronger, can they still be found new?

John

 

[stringcheese]

Yea you can find new 8 spd drivetrain parts almost anywhere. Shimano makes them in most models and sram makes them in most lower-end models.

 

[Phreaddy]

... manufacturing & design refinement.
A nine-speed designed and manufactured with the same care and diligence and refinement as an eight-speed, won't work as well as the eight. But today's nine-speeds are certainly going to work better than seven-speeds from 10 years ago, and possibly better even than eight-speeds from five years ago.

Now, if a seven-speed were made today with all the resources (again, the manufacturing and design refinements) as goes into a nine-speed, the seven speed would still be better quality (last long, shift better, be cheaper), simply because of the physics involved.

This is how every manufacturing industry progresses. The perfect example is miniaturization in computers. A brand-new laptop won't be nearly as powerful as a similar-priced desktop. But today's laptops are more powerful than desktops were just two or three years ago.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by centromachetes
Are 9-speed cassettes and chains durable? It seems that they get more so over the years, as I remember many years ago when 7-speed cassettes were first emerging, people would say that they weren't very strong. If 8-speeds are stronger, can they still be found new?

John

Chain strength is unaffected. Cogs and chainrings will wear slightly (really slightly) faster, but probably not noticeable except for Ti versions... Some people claimed they coule feel the cogs flex. Those people are liars.

9-spd is also a little more sensitive to mud/contamination and to derailleur setup since the cog spacing is closer.

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by ohio
Chain strength is unaffected.

Is the chain really the same? I recall that Shimano went from 8 to 9 speeds by reducing the spacer size between cassettes, so I suppose it is possible that the chains stayed the same... still, call me unlucky but I've had much worse luck with chains since the advent of 9 speed. Maybe my pedal stroke has just gotten that much less smooth since high school.

 

[sub6]

Originally posted by ohio


Chain strength is unaffected. Cogs and chainrings will wear slightly (really slightly) faster, but probably not noticeable except for Ti versions... Some people claimed they coule feel the cogs flex. Those people are liars.

9-spd is also a little more sensitive to mud/contamination and to derailleur setup since the cog spacing is closer.

Hmm. I've heard a lot of people complaining about folding over their bigger 9sp cogs; I've never heard of anyone doing that on 8sp or lower. Mabye those were just the infamous M952 cassettes?ink:

Originally posted by toshi


Is the chain really the same? I recall that Shimano went from 8 to 9 speeds by reducing the spacer size between cassettes, so I suppose it is possible that the chains stayed the same...

The chain isn't the same, but the strength should theoretically be the same. The plates are the same, AFAIK, but the pins/bushings/whateveryacall'em are shorter, which makes the chain narrower without affecting strength.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by sub6


Hmm. I've heard a lot of people complaining about folding over their bigger 9sp cogs; I've never heard of anyone doing that on 8sp or lower. Mabye those were just the infamous M952 cassettes?ink:



The chain isn't the same, but the strength should theoretically be the same. The plates are the same, AFAIK, but the pins/bushings/whateveryacall'em are shorter, which makes the chain narrower without affecting strength.

Really? A lot of people? I'd heard rumors here and there, but that's it... I think those must have been the Ti cogs. I haven't heard of that ever happening with steel cogs...

Ditto on chain strength. They just downsized the bushing and pin length, but the plates are the same thickness, so there's just as much overlap between pins and plates, which is where the strength comes from. I've always had bad luck with Shimano chains, 8-spd or other. SRAM/sachs has a much superior technique for stamping the pins. I broke an 8-spd Shimano chain 3 times last fall, and I didn't even ride most of the season due to a stolen bike and a major illness. I have yet to break a 9-spd SRAM PC-69 this year, and the PC-99 is even stronger.

 

[Zonic Man]

Originally posted by ohio


Really? A lot of people? I'd heard rumors here and there, but that's it... I think those must have been the Ti cogs. I haven't heard of that ever happening with steel cogs...

Ditto on chain strength. They just downsized the bushing and pin length, but the plates are the same thickness, so there's just as much overlap between pins and plates, which is where the strength comes from. I've always had bad luck with Shimano chains, 8-spd or other. SRAM/sachs has a much superior technique for stamping the pins. I broke an 8-spd Shimano chain 3 times last fall, and I didn't even ride most of the season due to a stolen bike and a major illness. I have yet to break a 9-spd SRAM PC-69 this year, and the PC-99 is even stronger.

I tear apart 9 speed rear cassettes, and use shimano XT exclusively. I have 2 revolving ones that go between shimano warranty and my bike. Yes, 9 speed IS weaker. It's narrower, so less meat.

I can't use LX because of the untempered steel. I SHRED the teeth off of those, especially doing sprints.

I break all chains (Shimano and SRAM included) except for Rohloff SLT99 ultra narrow trials chains that work with 9 speed rear cassettes.

9 speed is also more tempermantal in terms of shifting quality/wear...you have to be more "on it".

9 speed is NOT as strong as 8 speed in my experience.

 

[ohio]

Originally posted by Zonic Man


I tear apart 9 speed rear cassettes, and use shimano XT exclusively. I have 2 revolving ones that go between shimano warranty and my bike. Yes, 9 speed IS weaker. It's narrower, so less meat.

I can't use LX because of the untempered steel. I SHRED the teeth off of those, especially doing sprints.

I break all chains (Shimano and SRAM included) except for Rohloff SLT99 ultra narrow trials chains that work with 9 speed rear cassettes.

9 speed is also more tempermantal in terms of shifting quality/wear...you have to be more "on it".

9 speed is NOT as strong as 8 speed in my experience.

Do you shift a lot under tension? Like shifting late for a hill, or while cranking in the middle ring? If that's the case, then I could understand you going through a lot of chains. I could probably break any chain I wanted if I was really trying, and downshifting HARD while under power... Behavior will be the same whether you're on a 8 or 9 spd drivetrain.

When you say "SHRED the teeth," you mean the teeth are literally snapping off the rest of the cog, or they're just wearing quickly?

So your current setup is XT 9-spd, rohloff chain?
Agreed that you have to keep a 9-spd setup adjusted more carefully (as per my first post).

 

[Zonic Man]

Originally posted by ohio


Do you shift a lot under tension? Like shifting late for a hill, or while cranking in the middle ring? If that's the case, then I could understand you going through a lot of chains. I could probably break any chain I wanted if I was really trying, and downshifting HARD while under power... Behavior will be the same whether you're on a 8 or 9 spd drivetrain.

When you say "SHRED the teeth," you mean the teeth are literally snapping off the rest of the cog, or they're just wearing quickly?

So your current setup is XT 9-spd, rohloff chain?
Agreed that you have to keep a 9-spd setup adjusted more carefully (as per my first post).

Shred the teeth meaning pull the teeth right off the rest of the cog in twos, yes. This is mostly from doing gate starts with LX rear cassettes.

I've bent all 3 xt cassettes NOT shifting under load but merely climbing in the 32 in the rear and middle front....34t? Forgetaboutit...

Setup is Rohloff slt99 super narrow chain, xt 11-32 cassette, XTR GS rear mech, xtr front mech, xtr shifters, Raceface Next LP cranks/raceface chainrings.

 

[oldfart]

Here's the scoop on the physical differences between Shimano 8 spd and 9 spd:

Cassette, 9 cogs in the space of the former 8. The spacing is closer but the cogs are the same width.

Chainrings, same width teeth and spacing as 8 speed but the ramps and pins stick out a wee bit more than 8 speed to catch the slightly narrower chain.

Front derailleur, slightly narrower cage width.

Rear derailleur, slightly narrower cage and pulley width.

Shifter, one more click on the right one.

Chain: inside dimensions are identical but the outside width is narrower.

Draw your own conclusions about the claimed strengths and weaknesses of these parts. Personnaly, I have very few problems with 9 spd. I have been using it since 99 on road and mountain. I find tuning the shifting to be slightly more finiky and setting the front to not rub is next to immposible.

 

[sub6]

oldfart, I think you're wrong on several counts:

Originally posted by oldfart
Here's the scoop on the physical differences between Shimano 8 spd and 9 spd:

Cassette, 9 cogs in the space of the former 8. The spacing is closer but the cogs are the same width no, the cogs are thinner.

Chainrings, same width teeth and spacing as 8 speed but the ramps and pins stick out a wee bit more than 8 speed to catch the slightly narrower chain.

Front derailleur, slightly narrower cage width.

Rear derailleur, slightly narrower cage and pulley width no, cage is the same; pulleys are same width. How else could a 9sp rear der. cage fit 7sp chains? .

Shifter, one more click on the right one yes, and the spacing between each click is changed - prevents compatibility with 8sp cassettes .

Chain: inside dimensions are identical but the outside width is narrower no, that is not possible without making the plates thinner. The plates are the same thickness. .

 

[oldfart]

cogs are not thinner. Measure them. I did and I get the same. 7spd pulley wheels are wider and pretty sure 8 spd are in between. There is probably enough space for a 8 spd chain, which is the same as 7 spd in the narrower. Your right about the shifter, I should have added that comment, the "clicks" are closer together. I think I'm right on the chain too. I've read what I put down in more than one place and from several good sources, ie. trusted mechanics. I'll try and remember to check my shimano shop manual at home tonight but I'm pretty forgetful about that stuff. Mind like a steel sieve.( as Maxwell Smart used to say)

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Originally posted by Zonic Man
...Rohloff slt99 super narrow chain, xt 11-32 cassette, XTR GS rear mech, xtr front mech, xtr shifters, Raceface Next LP cranks/raceface chainrings.

So it's a complete mixed bag of pieces that sort of might work but doesn't seem to?

J

Sumpin must be going on here...

J'

 

[Zonic Man]

Originally posted by johnbryanpeters

So it's a complete mixed bag of pieces that sort of might work but doesn't seem to?

J

Sumpin must be going on here...

J'

Are you serious?

Everything works great....drivetrain other than chain is shimano XT/XTR...fully compatable. Shimano chains suck ass. And XTR cranks, although good, are 120 grams heavier than my setup.

I fold cassettes, that's all there is to it. There are not strong enough 32t cassettes out there.

Me=210lbs, xc hardtail, racing. It just doesn't add up if you get my drift.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

It's the doesn't add up that I'm pondering. You can't be the only big rider who races. Do you take up the chain slack before you reef on it when starting? If the equipment's inherently weak, as you claim, then I guess the only variable you have available is technique.

J

 

[TwoWheelinTim]

Originally posted by Zonic Man
Setup is Rohloff slt99 super narrow chain, xt 11-32 cassette, XTR GS rear mech, xtr front mech, xtr shifters, Raceface Next LP cranks/raceface chainrings.

My set up is pretty similar and it works well. I'm using an SRAM PC59 chain though and I haven't broken it yet. I just wear them out. I know it's time to change the chain, cogs and cassette when the shifting gets dicey and the teeth start to look more like breaking waves.

 

[Zonic Man]

Originally posted by johnbryanpeters
It's the doesn't add up that I'm pondering. You can't be the only big rider who races. Do you take up the chain slack before you reef on it when starting? If the equipment's inherently weak, as you claim, then I guess the only variable you have available is technique.

J

I'm a torquer on the pedals, not a smooth "spinner".

And there is no chain slack. I run a GS rear derailleur (mid cage xtr) and a chris king hub for that very reason.