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A bad day for America

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,412
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SF
Bush's annoucement that unchecked eavesdropping is ok and the Congress allowing Alaska drilling is a bad day for America.
 

kinghami3

Future Turbo Monkey
Jun 1, 2004
2,241
0
Ballard 4 life.
sanjuro said:
Bush's annoucement that unchecked eavesdropping is ok and the Congress allowing Alaska drilling is a bad day for America.
Can't get a bj but you can spy on American citizens all you want. Ahhh, the hypocrisy, it burns, it burns!
 

Ciaran

Fear my banana
Apr 5, 2004
9,844
11
So Cal
Please. Like finding out that the government is spying on is is a surprise! Anyone who is truly surprised by this is being naive.
 

kinghami3

Future Turbo Monkey
Jun 1, 2004
2,241
0
Ballard 4 life.
It's not a surprise, but the fact that they're just brushing it off now that it's proven annoys the hell out of me. It's that concept of the gov't spying on its own citizens that stories like 1984, Fahrenheit 451, and Equilibrium come out of.
 

reflux

Turbo Monkey
Mar 18, 2002
4,622
2
G14 Classified
kinghami3 said:
Can't get a bj but you can spy on American citizens all you want. Ahhh, the hypocrisy, it burns, it burns!
My favorite part is how this (spying) is done to protect the freedoms and liberties of all Americans.
 

kinghami3

Future Turbo Monkey
Jun 1, 2004
2,241
0
Ballard 4 life.
Pau11y said:
Ok, I'm a moron. I know what's 1984, but what's Fahrenheit 451 and Equilibrium?
Fahrenheit is a book about a future when you aren't allowed to own books, and Equilibrium is an indie sci-fi film, kind of a cross between the Matrix and 1984 and stars Christian Bale. They all follow the same theme of the gov't spying on its citizens.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
36,936
3,759
Sleazattle
sanjuro said:
Bush's annoucement that unchecked eavesdropping is ok and the Congress allowing Alaska drilling is a bad day for America.
The worst part of the Alaska drilling is the only thing it will do is give more money to the oil companies. There is not enough oil up there to make much of a difference in supply.
 

stinkyboy

Plastic Santa
Jan 6, 2005
15,192
0
¡Phoenix!
Ciaran said:
Please. Like finding out that the government is spying on is is a surprise! Anyone who is truly surprised by this is being naive.
But how apathetic are Americans to have the president admit to a felony and not fugging care. If it's a BJ, then everyone want to see some fat chick and a soiled dress.

I guess it's going to take the 2nd amendment disappearing to wake people up, but then again, no one seemed to notice it happening during the Katrina disaster...

:help:
 

Ciaran

Fear my banana
Apr 5, 2004
9,844
11
So Cal
stinkyboy said:
But how apathetic are Americans to have the president admit to a felony and not fugging care. If it's a BJ, then everyone want to see some fat chick and a soiled dress.

I guess it's going to take the 2nd amendment disappearing to wake people up, but then again, no one seemed to notice it happening during the Katrina disaster...

:help:
That's the really sad thing I think... that Americans don't care. Personally I am not sure what I can do other then vote for someone else. I am trying to work on it though. I may not know how to enact meaningful change but I am willing to learn (as long as it doesn't get me killed. No offense, but I am not dying for your asses :D ).
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,412
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SF
Ok, if people aren't going to take this seriously, I am going to N8 post some anti-anti-Bush rhetoric....
 

stinkyboy

Plastic Santa
Jan 6, 2005
15,192
0
¡Phoenix!
Ciaran said:
Personally I am not sure what I can do other then vote for someone else. I am trying to work on it though. I may not know how to enact meaningful change but I am willing to learn
I've donated graphic design for a couple local politicians. Neither one of them won, but once they do dammit, I'm on the power fast track!

:rolleyes:
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,672
0
Feeling the lag
stinkyboy said:
No artwork + A web presence, professional brochures, cards, signs and press releases = Better
Cool - I was just being sarky - given that the candidates that you have helped have subsequently lost. :sneaky:

I guess they were losing anyway though...
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,007
149
The Cleft of Venus
sanjuro said:
Bush's annoucement that unchecked eavesdropping is ok and the Congress allowing Alaska drilling is a bad day for America.

Where have you been?

Carter and Clinton used the NSA to eavesdrop during their administrations. Why cry about it now.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,412
0
SF
N8 said:
Where have you been?

Carter and Clinton used the NSA to eavesdrop during their administrations. Why cry about it now.
Wait, you are saying the government spied on us? I don't J believe EDGAR you HOOVER!

Not that is any different, but what they did was illegal. If caught, someone would go down, even if it is a Ollie North. Bush legalized spying.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,412
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SF
Judge Reportedly Resigns Over U.S. Spy Program
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 11:20 a.m. ET

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A federal judge has resigned from a special court set up to oversee government surveillance, apparently in protest of President Bush's secret authorization of a domestic spying program on people with suspected terrorist ties.

U.S. District Judge James Robertson would not comment Wednesday on his resignation, but The Washington Post reported that it stemmed from deep concern that the surveillance program Bush authorized was legally questionable and may have tainted the work of the court.

An aide to Robertson said the resignation letter submitted to Chief Justice John Roberts was not being released. Robertson did not step down from his district judgeship in Washington.

White House press secretary Scott McClellan would not discuss Robertson's resignation or the reasons cited for his departure. ''Judge Robertson did not comment on the matter and I don't see any reason why we need to,'' McClellan said.

Robertson was one of 11 members of the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which oversees government applications for secret surveillance or searches of foreigners and U.S. citizens suspected of terrorism or espionage. Robertson's term was to end in May.

''This was definitely a statement of protest,'' said Scott Silliman, a former Air Force attorney and Duke University law professor. ''It is unusual because it signifies that at least one member of the court believes that the president has exceeded his legal authority.''

Ruth Wedgwood, a Johns Hopkins University professor and defender of many Bush administration policies in the terror war, said that service on the special court is voluntary.

''If Judge Robertson had strong feelings that he thought would interfere with the needed objectivity, one could understand his decision,'' she said.

The court was established by Congress in 1978 and its members, appointed by the chief justice, do their work in private.

Quoting colleagues of Robertson, the Post said the judge had indicated he was concerned that information gained from the warrantless surveillance under Bush's program subsequently could have been used to obtain warrants under the FISA program.

Robertson was appointed a federal judge by President Clinton in 1994. Chief Justice William Rehnquist later appointed Robertson to the FISA court as well.

Robertson has been critical of the Bush administration's treatment of detainees at the U.S. naval prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, most memorably in a decision that sidetracked the president's system of military tribunals to put some detainees on trial.

Robertson's resignation was reported hours after Vice President Dick Cheney strongly defended the surveillance program and called for ''strong and robust'' presidential powers.

Cheney -- a former member of congress, defense secretary and White House chief of staff under President Ford -- said executive authority has been eroding since the Watergate and Vietnam eras.

''I believe in a strong, robust executive authority and I think that the world we live in demands it,'' Cheney said.

''I would argue that the actions that we've taken there are totally appropriate and consistent with the constitutional authority of the president. ... You know, it's not an accident that we haven't been hit in four years,'' the vice president said, speaking with reporters Tuesday on Air Force Two en route from Pakistan to Oman.

Republicans said Congress must investigate whether Bush was within the law to allow the super-secret National Security Agency to eavesdrop -- without warrants -- on international calls and e-mails of Americans and others inside the United States with suspected ties to al-Qaida.

''I believe the Congress -- as a coequal branch of government -- must immediately and expeditiously review the use of this practice,'' said Sen. Olympia Snowe, R-Maine.

Snowe joined three other members of the Senate Intelligence Committee, including Nebraska Republican Chuck Hagel, in calling for a joint inquiry by the Senate judiciary and intelligence committees.

Bush and his top advisers have suggested senior congressional leaders vetted the program in more than a dozen highly classified briefings. Several Democrats agreed said they were told of the program, but did not know the full details and had concerns.
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,978
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
N8 said:
Where have you been?

Carter and Clinton used the NSA to eavesdrop during their administrations. Why cry about it now.

Unless I'm mistaken they went to the Foreign Intel court to get warrants for the surveillance. After it's easy as pie to do, you get 72 hours AFTER YOU START your surveillance to get a RETROACTIVE COURT ORDER. Il' Deuce is completely blowing smoke on it being too time sensitive to bother getting a warrant. the Same law that created the FI court, also specified that all surveillance of this type had to got through the court, all. Not if the wind blowing through Il' Deuce's head makes the wind chimes ring, All.
 

stevew

unique white person
Sep 21, 2001
32,076
2,950
Reactor said:
Unless I'm mistaken they went to the Foreign Intel court to get warrants for the surveillance. After it's easy as pie to do, you get 72 hours AFTER YOU START your surveillance to get a RETROACTIVE COURT ORDER. Il' Deuce is completely blowing smoke on it being too time sensitive to bother getting a warrant. the Same law that created the FI court, also specified that all surveillance of this type had to got through the court, all. Not if the wind blowing through Il' Deuce's head makes the wind chimes ring, All.
This person does not seem to think there was anything wrong with it.
 

Pau11y

Turbo Monkey
kinghami3 said:
Fahrenheit is a book about a future when you aren't allowed to own books, and Equilibrium is an indie sci-fi film, kind of a cross between the Matrix and 1984 and stars Christian Bale. They all follow the same theme of the gov't spying on its citizens.
Kewl, thanx. I'll have to check 'em out.
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,978
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
stevew said:

Funny, one of the article three judges on the FISA court resigned in protest. I would think as a judge on the FISA court, he would know the law better than some pundit.

"FISA does not anticipate a post-Sept. 11 situation. What was needed after Sept. 11, according to the president, was surveillance beyond what could be authorized under that kind of individualized case-by-case judgment. It is hard to imagine the Supreme Court second-guessing that presidential judgment."

So his justification is that the law didn't anticipate every possible future act? The fact remains, Il Deuce didn't even try to use the FISA court, Instead he unilaterly decided it was a waste of time to justify his wiretaps. So much for the rule of law, Our country gets so much more like the people we're fighting every day.
 

steelewheels

Monkey
Oct 26, 2001
136
0
spys, wiretaps, sabotage, illegal jails, and so on. All these are just being used to dived the human race more and more till its breaking point. War only profits the rich and as long as they can keep the people suppressed they will continue to profit from bloodshed. There is no god in world relations only money.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
9,890
4
Hypernormality
You may or may not like this, from onlinejournal.com:

In the heat of this current battle to rationalize why Bush decided to circumvent the FISA court and illegally spy on whomever he personally felt needed spying on, don't you find it a bit odd that they aren't vociferously and repeatedly invoking the case of Zacarias Moussaoui?

Moussaoui, I'm sure you recall, was the French al Qaeda operative arrested in August 2001 while taking lessons at a flight training school in Minnesota. He wanted to learn how to fly a 747 jetliner, but exhibited little interest in how to take off or land one. He also paid the $8,000 tuition in cash, had recently traveled to Pakistan and Afghanistan, and had connections to an Algerian terrorist group that attempted to crash an airplane into the Eiffel Tower in 1994.

In light of all this, local FBI agents asked headquarters if they could obtain a FISA search warrant for the hard drive on Moussaoui's computer. The FBI denied the request, claiming they didn't feel it met the FISA court's probable cause standard for granting a warrant.

So . . . why aren't we hearing a deafening chorus of Bush administration hacks and whores shouting something along the lines of: "Look what happened with the Moussaoui case! They didn't think they could get a warrant!! Don't you see why the president felt he had to go around FISA in order to keep us safe? Just think . . . if FISA wasn't so bureaucratically obstructionist, 9/11 might have been averted! All those people would be alive!! Alive I tell ya!! Don't you want the president to have the ability to keep us alive?"

On the surface, this line of argument would seem to be just what the Bush backers love -- a case closed, you're either with us or against us, banality. And yet Moussaoui is hardly ever mentioned. Why do you suppose that is? Could it be that the last thing the Bush Cabal wants brought into this discussion is the Moussaoui case?

Maybe they suspect that after the initial "Gosh, when you put it that way I guess it does make sense that he had to break the law to keep us safe", the very next thought from an average Joe might be: "By the way, why didn't the FBI apply for a FISA warrant to search the computer of a known terrorist associate wanting lessons to fly, but not take off or land, a commercial airliner?"

Humm . . . good question. Especially considering that at this very same time there were multiple alarms coming from a variety of sources -- including the August 6 presidential briefing specifically warning of an imminent al Qaeda attack with the potential for hijackings!

Since it's inception the FISA court has approved 19,000 warrants and denied only 4. So why on earth would someone high up (way up?) in Louis Freeh's FBI refuse to pursue a FISA (or even a criminal) warrant in the Moussaoui case?

Colleen Rowley, the FBI agent who had requested the Moussaoui warrant, was so overwhelmed at the inexplicable bureaucratic roadblocks the FBI put in her way, that she was compelled to testify before Congress about her concerns. She wrote in a followup report that some field agents were frustrated enough to joke that key officials at FBI headquarters "had to be spies or moles . . . who were actually working for Osama bin Laden to have so undercut [our] effort."

4 years ago I wrote an essay, entitled "One Terrible Pilot," in which this Moussaoui issue was only one (and a relatively minor one at that) of dozens of bright red and alarming flags surrounding 9/11. And, of course, I was instantly accused of being a raving conspiracy nut for voicing any suspicions.

Since then we have seen literally hundreds of individual steps this administration has taken to subvert our constitutional protections at home and to begin to implement, on a global scale, a dangerously myopic military strategy. And every move they make is either prefaced or followed by the words "9/11."

But contrary to what they want you to believe, this strategy was not thrown together shortly after, and as a response to, 9/11. Much of it had in fact already been mapped out prior to Bush's 2000 selection as president.

The document was entitled "Rebuilding America's Defenses, Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New Century" and it's authors were all members of a neoconservative think tank called the Project For A New American Century (PNAC). They included Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Scooter Libby, Jeb Bush, and several other key GOP movers and shakers. The strategy outlined therein called for (among many other things currently in full swing) the invasion and occupation of Iraq, the establishment of new military bases there and throughout the Middle East, and a dramatically increased role for the US to act as the entire world's (defined as those places who have something we want) policeman.

Remember, this was all planned out prior to the 2000 election.

The signatories of this radical new global strategy admitted, within the document itself, that such a controversial strategic goal would be a difficult sale to the vast majority of Americans, and would likely take many years to implement. Unless, that is, they inadvertently stumbled upon a bit of 'good luck'. A "trifecta" if you will.

This is the direct quote from that 2000 PNAC document: "The process of transformation is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event -- like a new Pearl Harbor."

Yep, nothing like a bit of 'good old luck' when you're advocating a long term (1,000 year?), fundamental and unprecedented takeover of the geopolitical/military landscape of the entire planet, as well as a subsequent dismantling of the Bill Of Rights here at home (in order to "discourage" the inevitable smattering of dissent).

Imagine how overwhelmingly frustrating it might have been for all those PNAC members if the "catastrophic and catalyzing event" of 9/11 had not so fortuitously come along during George W's reign! All those years of planning, going all the way back to the Ford administration and the end of the Cold War, all the secret meetings and the positioning of the "right people" in the right places to be ready at the right time, all the media they had been buying up . . . all their hard work would have been for naught, just going to waste, with little hope of coming to fruition.

Heck, had 9/11 not occurred, these folks -- realizing the window of opportunity could very well close upon them -- might have gotten so desperate they may have been tempted to put together another "Operation Northwoods" type of plot or something.

In case you're unfamiliar, "Operation Northwoods" was a top secret Pentagon plan that was submitted to Defense Secretary McNamara in 1962. The scheme called for the staging of actual 'terrorist' attacks, including airline hijackings and crashes, against U.S. civilian and military targets in order to deceive the American public and the international community into supporting a war to oust Fidel Castro. The plan was flatly rejected by President Kennedy, infuriating those in the Pentagon who had devised it.

Kennedy was assassinated a couple months later by an alleged lone nut for no apparent reason.

Oh, oh. Now I've done it. I've violated the "Conspiracy Theory Dictum" by combining three or more conspiracy theories into a common narrative. The Dictum (which was formulated by a team of top psychiatrists after years of study) states that most people can handle one conspiracy; a few can manage a couple; but very, very few can handle three or more interconnected conspiracy theories without fusing out and reverting to a vacuous numb-like "that can't possibly be true, so please stop bothering me about it" state.

A troubling thought just came to me. If one takes into account the unavoidable 'please go away now' consequence of the "Conspiracy Theory Dictum," then why wouldn't a truly devious person or group of persons, figure out a way to use the Dictum to their advantage?

For instance, they could orchestrate their goals in such a way that an outsider would have to consider multiple interrelated 'conspiracy theories' in order to uncover what they are or have been up to.

The result? They would, by definition, be free to do whatever they wanted, no matter how outrageous, with very little oversight whatsoever from the general public. In fact, the more outrageous their plans and actions, and the bigger the lies they tell to mask them, the less likely people would be to suspect or entertain any accusations against them!

The "Conspiracy Theory Dictum" is the perfect cover! It's unlikely they would ever be caught or stopped!

Now that's what I would call a brilliantly devious plan.

All I can say is . . . it's a good thing we in the United States do not have a group of people like that to contend with right now.
Can you imagine what kind of dire mess this country might be in if we did?