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A Consumer's Impact on a Touchy Subject

Merwin5_10

Don't Mess With Texas!
Jul 6, 2001
153
0
Austin, Texas
While at work recently, I retired to the “library” to catch up on some reading. I had a copy of the August Bike magazine in my hands. Inside was an article by Mike Ferrentino about retail bike shops verses mail order. I found this article particularly interesting. Mr. Ferrentino explained that during this time of depressed economies and hard times for many shops, Bike would demonstrate their support of retail bike shops by excluding any advertisements for mail order businesses. Being in the retail business, I thought I might offer my perspective on the matter, and make a plea for your business.

First and for the record, no, bike shops can’t compete with the prices you see in the mags for mail order companies. There are many reasons why these companies can sell product for so cheap. Some get what is called OEM pricing. Original Equipment Manufacturer pricing is extended to a business that builds finished product for resale. This is also how bike companies, like Trek, make a profit. Since they are purchasing product to complete a bike for resale, they receive deep discounts, better than wholesale. OEM was meant to protect the profit margins of product sold at wholesale. This protection provides invaluable revenue, much of which is used for research and development. This increased money, in part, has lead to the fine technological innovations the bike industry has experienced in the last ten years. So, it would be wrong to condemn OEM pricing. The problem occurs when greedy companies see and opportunity to abuse this privilege, and order excess parts for the sole purpose of resale at a profit. In this case, the company in question makes the same margin as a wholesale or retail distributor would, except they sell directly to the public, effectively cutting out the middleman.

Another way that mail order companies can offer such great deals is by purchasing products from “gray market” sources. This can be especially destructive for everyone, including the consumer. Many times the purchases are not authorized, sanctioned, or monitored by the maker of the product. “Gray market” is an industry slang term that describes a supply and sale any product that does not travel through regulated channels. At first glance this may not seem harmful, but consider these types of “gray market” traffic. Some shady mail order distributors have been caught selling stolen, recalled and even warranty returned product to consumers, with the false pretense that the sale will be supported by all manufacturer warranties and guarantees. These cases are actively pursued and investigated by the makers of these products in the attempt to protect the reputation of their company and the safety of their customers. We’ve all seen these companies. Adds appear in magazines for a couple of months. Then they’re gone. Two months later, the same company begins selling the same products with the same marketing campaign, and the same risks, under a different name. If you happen to be unlucky enough to purchase product from these people, you are stuck with product the maker never intended for sale, possibly due to safety reasons, with no recourse of action. Hopefully you will not discover this when your bike breaks unexpectedly, rendering you the newest member of the semi-injured clique.

(In fairness to the reputable on-line and mail order companies, I will admit that this is not the majority of the companies out there. I will also offer that these crooks can be easily avoided by purchasing from companies that have a solid word-of-mouth reputation and an established history. If in doubt, contact the maker of the product you are interested in buying. Ask if they are authorized to sell their product. I can assure you that finding a too-good-to-be-true deal may sound like something you can’t pass up, but you should probably investigate.)

In addition to these examples, add any of a hundred others. Companies sell parts from discontinued bikes. Companies take advantage of quantity discounts, where they receive incredible savings because they buy so many units. Companies start an online business that is tied into their retail business so they can get the same perks and stay competitive in a very hostile market. The fact is everyone needs to make a profit. You can’t survive without one. So the question becomes, as a consumer why not buy and save big bucks? Why not let these companies battle it out, and let the strongest survive? Why not?

The answer is; honestly, we won’t survive. I don’t mean my shop. I mean bicycle retail. I mean the shop you have a relationship with. The guy you trust to fix your bike when all hell breaks loose. I’m talking about the shop that considers your business so important, that it they will exchange a part you ordered on-line, just to make you happy. Maybe they install it for free. Maybe they tell you its not the right part for your bike, then tell you which one you need that will work, knowing you won’t be buying it from them. I would ask you to think about it. Where online do you receive that kind of personal service? The real price I spoke about is the real threat of loosing these shops. Will every one fold? Probably not. Will on-line and mail order completely dominate the bicycle industry? Not right away, but eventually. Will it eventually trickle down to the bike companies themselves? Absolutely. Is it worth the money you save? You will answer that.

In this day and age, society asks you to save everything from paper to seals. I’ll spare you a sappy, Greenpeace inspired spiel about the moral obligation of consumers to protect bike shops. At its fundamental level, it is business. And the strongest will survive. As businessmen, we knew this when we opened our stores and we live with this reality daily. Being a family man, I also appreciate that there are more important things to spend money on than bike parts. I understand the importance of saving as much as we can to make a better life for ourselves, and those we love. But as consumers, you have an awesome power. Where you take you business, and to whom you give your money dictates whom will be around in five years, and who will not. I can promise you that when your favorite bike shop closes, and you can no longer reach your trusted bike tech, or when Research and Development dollars begin to dry up from an industry in recession, and new models are seen every two or three years, you will know the true cost of cheap parts.

Check it out, monkeys. Ask your local shop how they feel about the pressure of price matching to online and mail order companies. Ask them what it does to their profits. Ask them why they do it. Ask them why they don’t. PM James at Giant (sorry to throw you under the bus, dude.) Ask him how bike companies feel about these predators. Ask him what he foresees for the bike industry if these companies do begin to dominate the industry. Ask what the long-term effects would be. Ask anyone’s opinion whom you truly trust. You have the power of choosing. I would only ask that you make an educated decision. And if you work in a shop, be honest with your customers. Answer their questions as completely as you can. They are the reason we are here.

In the interim, thanks to Mr. Ferrentino and Bike magazine for supporting the bike shops dedicated to growing the sport we love. To everyone else reading this, its Saturday morning, don’t you have a ride to make?
 
R

RideMonkey

Guest
In the end it comes down to business. I'm going to spend my money where I feel its going to return the greatest benefit for me. If I wanted to donate to charity it would probably go to cancer research not the LBS.

I have spent 100% of my money this year at the LBS. Not because I am loyal to the LBS but because they have had what I needed when I needed it (of course one of my LBS is a big mail order warehouse that happens to have a retail front).

To be honest, I have not been happy with my LBS experiences this year. JOJO and I spent a fortune at one bike shop and she still had to leave her bike for almost a week mid season to get her "complimentary" tune on the bike she bought there. And they charged us full price to install some brake pads during the "complimentary" tune.

On another occasion I bought a bike from them on a Friday. I bought this bike for one reason only: I really wanted to get 2 days of riding in that weekend because I had been without a bike all season. It turned out that on my first ride Saturday the bike developed a problem that needed attention. I brought it in Saturday afternoon for what would have been a quick fix but guess what!! Everyone in the shop had decided to cut out a few hours early! So my ride was ruined! The whole reason for getting the bike down the drain!

At another shop I was denied use of their restroom while I was shopping in their store. I go out of my way to never shop there now. At least when I am shopping online I can walk across the hall to take a leak.

Last summer I had some emergency repairs to make so I could get off to a race 1000 miles away. Of course every bike shop in town was booked for weeks so I ended up driving all over town and then fixing the damn thing myself with inadequate tools just one day before the race. So much for the "but you need the mechanical support of the LBS......" cuz I have to do it all myself anyway if I want to keep the bike going mid season.

The LBS needs to be run like a real competative business or I'm going to spend my money elsewhere. Could a car dealership tell you that they would have to keep your car for a whole week to do some minor repair? 3 weeks? Hell no!

So LBS: modernize, streamline, compete before you get trampled by progress.
 

ssk

Monkey
Oct 4, 2001
188
0
Humidiston
I believe this issue reared it's ugly head first in the early to mid nineties. Certain magazines would limit the number of items allowed to be published in an ad for mail order. Some notible mags(MBA) didn't agree with this policy and grabbed the ad $$$ for mail order firms.

How was the issue resolved then? It seemed to disappear or cool down for a while after Costco got busted for selling grey market Cannondales meant for the Chinese market. What can be done to reach a fair balance between retail and mail order? Many small companies rely on mail order for distribution.
 
Jun 13, 2002
18
0
NH
Just my 2 cents...
There are about 12 Bike shops within 30 miles of my house.
I've spent over $15,000 in one of them over the last 20 years.
And they won't even sponsor me, cut me deals, or even pro form anything for me!
NOT one of them has Hayes brake line for sale. "Uh, we can order it."
SO CAN I! And I won't "Mark up" my shipping charges!
2 of them carry Hayes pads 1 for $30, 1 for $40.
1 shop in the area carries Nokian Gazz Jrs. For $75.00!!!
None of the other ones have anything bigger than a 2.1!
I bought my SC Bullit in June from an LBS. They didn't even have any seat posts that would fit it!!!
So, I had to order one.
How about Hayes Levers?"Uh, we can order it."
321 rims? "Uh, we can order it."
Maxxis DH Tires? "Uh, we can order it."
Half of these clowns haven't even heard of Hope brakes!
As far as service... I do my own.
I won't trust my life to a fifteen year old who's getting paid $6.00/hr
Simply put. Racers can't afford to use the LBS!
 

Roasted

Turbo Monkey
Jul 4, 2002
1,488
0
Whistler, BC
To be honest we have some awesome shops out here. Locals discounts, sponsorships they carry all the best equipment and most of them race. So they have true to life opinions not ones read in a magazine. I use one shop in particular. For a little beer here and there they give me discounts. When it comes down to purchasing items I need in the future I do shop in Vancouver or online. The shops (sorry guys) really can't compete with even the most basic prices in the city. The rent in a resort town is too high.

For quick jobs where I need the work done and opinion given I go lbs. If I am buying a frame or fork (over 1000$) I can usually save 35% just by going to the city. This is to big a margin to just ignore. If I decide to shop online I can even save as much as 50%.

Luckily the bike shop does know this and goes out of there way to save locals as much as possible. It keeps me coming back for 80% of the work I need done.
 

Merwin5_10

Don't Mess With Texas!
Jul 6, 2001
153
0
Austin, Texas
Originally posted by RideMonkey


The LBS needs to be run like a real competative business or I'm going to spend my money elsewhere. Could a car dealership tell you that they would have to keep your car for a whole week to do some minor repair? 3 weeks? Hell no!
RM, I absolutely agree with this statment. In your specific case, had I been treated this way in a LBS, I would seek business elswhere, too.

Hopefully, there is a good, reputable, service oriented LBS somewhere in Boulder. I can tell you that in some of the instances you described, I'd be firing people who treated my customers that way.
 
Aug 3, 2002
30
0
Jacksonville:Florida
[QOUTE]

The LBS needs to be run like a real competative business or I'm going to spend my money elsewhere. Could a car dealership tell you that they would have to keep your car for a whole week to do some minor repair? 3 weeks? Hell no!

So LBS: modernize, streamline, compete before you get trampled by progress.
[/QUOTE]


<--speaking from 12 years marketing and add research, 5 years Shpg mgt, 1 R&D

Reality check fellas
Cant have it BOTH ways
Local good guy who cuts the good deals can get you anything but is often swamped and running a tight budget.
Streamline, mod shop who has gone big business doesnt NEED your input anymore. Franchisement gives power to "the MAN"


Small shops are usually swamped for work during start and last days of season. Especially the real little guys that the mechanic, distribution exec, inventory controller and sales associate are all rolled up into an owner and one employee.

Having an inventory of little ordered items "in-stock" (rarely can you just order one without taking a loss) is not Good Business You cant maintain with a bunch of items that are updated continually. You would need to take a loss on the leftovers at tax year end or when they are discontinued. I cant even keep my concentration because your whiny complaints floor me?
I gotta see the deal at the LBS my hub works out to get tthe "BIKE SPECIFIC" angle.
And for the one guy..$100 a year is not much. Heck I over a millionj in the past 15 years at McD's..you think THEY give a rats patoot?
Get some perspective...
Sure there are some crappy shops outthere with suck service. SO dont frequentt em. But dont nitpick EVERY inconveinience suffered as a personal affront!!
(And would use online fer some things..sure) Prefer to see and touch first
 

Rustmouse

Chimp
Aug 9, 2002
77
0
Olympia, WA
Monkey seems to have a series of bad businesses around... Simple stuff like the restroom, minor repairs, and customer service are all part of owning a business (if they don't have time for the little stuff, they don't deserve to be in business)

The LBS I work at not only sells and fixes bikes, but it seems to have become the local MB hangout (they're putting in a coffee bar next month!)

The repair thing is a continuous problem, tho... we have 4 people (Including the owners) and the owner is currently the only mechanic in the store.. the rest of us can do the minor work and adjustments, but for anything serious.. it's him only. Which means, if you want yer wheels trued, brakes bled or shocks rebuilt... it's him... and he's doing this while promoting 12 races a year, building bikes, doing the books, paying the bills, ordering merchandise, selling bikes and taking time out to give advice to those that wish to do their own maintenance on their bikes...

If you're looking for a brake line for 2000 Hayes hydraulics, well, unfortunately we have to order it (and it shows up at our store in the same amount of time that the mail order places get it to you). We don't see a ton of broken brake lines, so it's not something that we can afford to keep in stock. Consider how much the technology has changed in the last 2 years alone! We cannot afford to have a huge inventory of spare parts just sitting there when nobody is using that seal/line/cable/tire whatever.
When we're doing the work, we end up cutting the amount of labor we charge you to keep the whole price of the job within reason ...

You order your parts online, get in over your head on repairs (or worse yet, break something during the job) then come to us to fix it, you want it yesterday, and you don't want us to charge you too much for it.

During prime biking season, everybody is breaking their equipment, wearing parts out and needing service... "I have a race this weekend" is a common complaint. So what do we do? If we put your job up front, we're postponing other jobs that those customers are just as anxious to have completed. (and every time there's a race locally, not only are we fixing a ton of bikes for it, but we're the ones promoting the race.. laying out the course, dealing with the local forest service people, fielding questions, fighting with the insurance/permit people etc).

Perhaps that is too much to put on our plate at once.. but in order to compete with the mail order guys, we have to do everything!

... Somewhere in there, we want to go riding ourselves, too! ...

We're not asking for charity (hell, if you don't have something to offer, then you shouldn't stay in business) Nor would I expect you to continue going to the LBS if they're a bunch of "Bike Snobs" who are too good to clean a toilet. What I do ask is look beyond just the price of the parts you're ordering. UPS costs money (it costs the LBS less money) and takes time. The good LBS owner will cut you a deal to try and match the mail order price. If you get a bum part from the LBS, you have someone close to yell at (I hate "Autoresponse from ..." customer service centers.). We have the incentive and obligation to make it right! If your LBS is not doing right by you, then it shouldn't be your LBS... Don't be fooled into thinking that the lower price is the only factor that matters!

I don't know what experience these others have in their area, but even my local bike snob shop has time for me! I was working on a customer's Huffy that was a basket case (and the bike was older than me!) I went to our competitor to find out about the part (cause they have a mechanic that was working on those things when they were new!) and even though I was working for a competitor, their mechanic took the time to dig the part out of their bicycle graveyard, and show me how to install and service it! If your LBS doesn't do that for you, then it's time to find another.
 

mrsdove

Chimp
Aug 7, 2002
18
0
Denver, CO
I think that it's a fine line that we must walk as consumers and advocates of biking.

I'd be the first to admit that I'm a chronic bargain hunter, always looking for the best deal.

I've also seen my fair share of bad and even unethical service. I've seen shops swap the parts off a complete bike and replace them with used parts that they had laying around so they could sell the better parts.

Our rule as consumers is to save or kill a business. If a bike shop offers bad service or otherwise disrespects us, we don't bring our business. The main point though, is to find a shop that DOES do an extraordinary job and give them our business. Hopefully, most of us have a local shop that is actually worth of our business.

In closing, only support your LBS insomuch as they earn your business. Then give them all of it.
 

Big Mack

Chimp
Aug 24, 2002
5
0
Massachusetts
I believe in supporting the LBS. I have good relationships with a few, but the majority of my $ goes to one. These are the guys that will show me the Quality and BTI prices and give me a fair mark-up. These are guys that will fix my bike by the next ride and allow me to work in their stands using their tools. If I'm looking for a part which they don't have, they offer to take it off a bike on the floor. It takes time and trust to build this kind of relationship, but I can certainly now call them friends.

I've been to some of the LBSs who treat customers like sh!t. Screw those guys. If you can find a shop that is good to you, be good to them in return. If there isn't one that exists near you, then mail-order may be the only choice. There are mail-order shops w/ great service and relationships.

Just my $.02.
 

VTinCT

Flexmaster Flexy Flex
Sep 24, 2001
355
0
Lost in the woods...
The starter for this thread is definately a well thought out, well written, and timely piece. But, I ask you, why, other than helping my LBS turn a profit, would I want to pay rediculously higher prices, for considerably slower service?:confused:

Yes, there will always be the father that needs the local shop to change his son's flat tire, but c'mon, $35 for an LX front derailer!? $25-40 an hour for labor!? My friggin car mechanic is cheaper!:rolleyes: Never mind the fact, that by the nature of the business, you're a mark from the moment you walk in, and you're always being pushed for the up-sell. No thanks.

Now, that said, there are those times that a break occurs, and you need the part NOW. Off to the LBS, and prepare to pay the price for convenience. Even then, I find that I need to drive close to an hour and a half to get to the one CT shop worth a damn (props to PEDAL POWER! ).

If I walk into your shop with a fork that I bought on-line, don't scoff at me when I ask you to cut it down, at least you're getting something out of the deal!

Take the power back I say! Learn to work on your own rig. It is both economical, rewarding, and safer.:thumb: Man, I can't rewmember the last item for my bike or my board that I got at a shop! With the initial investment of a few hundred dollars for a good tool set (more $$ over time;) :D ) I figure I've saved Sista Kreep and myself a few thousand dollers! Thats the profit that I care about! I have enough to worry about, without wondering how the guy that opened the LBS is doing....he took the risk, I don't need to pay for it.

Lets not get started on the crap that is hawked in shops these days too. Even at the highest end (on most bikes) on a showroom floor there are sub-standard parts, or crap house brand parts. I can't believe what $2000 CAN'T buy these days! You take that $2000 and do a little searching at Jenson, Cambria, or SuperGo, and that dollar buys you a sick custom bike, that is gonna out perform the shops offering.

There will always be a place for the local shop, but that place is beyond changing, it HAS changed. Deal with it, or find a new trade.

This is of course, one :monkey: 's humble opinion.
 

Skookum

bikey's is cool
Jul 26, 2002
10,184
0
in a bear cave
Interesting thread. Personally i enjoy taking my business to my LBS as much as i can. That however doesnt keep me from using the leverage of online prices with them. There are plenty of people coming into the shop unaware of the cheap prices of parts at such and such a site. Too bad for them, what i do is let my LBS know and they almost always swing me a deal.
Even though I have only purchased 2 bikes from my LBS they see alot of my money if not in parts or bikes then from maintenance and my referal. This is not to say i havent given them money from parts, and bikes in some instances though.
My LBS doesnt have a huge inventory on stock but they do know alot about parts that are dependable and willingly give out info on these parts. Information is invaluable my mechanic see's the wounded bikes coming in from the front lines. So yes i see the best of both worlds, and yes i spend more to my convenience than to my responsibility of the fabric of the biking industry. But looking at it from this threads perspective and looking at my own spending habits i dont believe for a second that i will doom my LBS.
I think for the most part people on mt. bikes whether u ride for sport/passion/recreation that i have met are generally down to earth nice people. That i think is a primary key to the survival of our LBS's. Showin a newbie around a trail, being courteous to people on the trail so as not to have them closed, promoting biking by being gracious to all geourgous women who want to bike(cant go wrong there). More people who bike the better that's the real deal there.
 

Tama

Chimp
Mar 21, 2002
13
0
Welly - NZ
I clicked ssk's signature and almost went mad...

Anyway, where was I - oh yeah, I've done my time at a LBS - 4½ years (3 years back admittedly,) and I thought I'd just jump in with something...

Last night I was at a trials competition, there was almost someone from every L.B.S. at the competition, some were helping out, some just hanging and chatting, a L.B.S. had also sponsored the event and donated some spot prizes.

Then today when I was doing shuttle runs with friends I bumped into a kru from one of the L.B.Ss taking their customers for shuttle runs - they'd sorted out transport and everything. I then went a rode an excellent 2km technical single-track which is maintained by a guy from another L.B.S. after a group from that L.B.S. built the track 5 years back...

...in my time behind the counter I gave large amounts of my time and energy to over 30 events (including a World Cup) - and it's still going on with other L.B.Ss ... that's one hell of a lot going back into the cycling community - and where are the mail-order companies when there's tracks to be built, rides to be organised or events to be run?

It sounds like some of you have had bad experience with bad service, that isn't a L.B.S. thing, that's an "employing idiots" problem (or a "managed by idiots" problem.)

But I can tell you, when it's 5pm on a Saturday and you've got thick grease wedged under your fingernails and haven't managed a bite to eat in 3 hours it's quite insulting to have someone try and screw you down on price "just because."

OK - rant over... :)
 

Motionboy2

Calendar Dominator
Apr 23, 2002
1,800
0
Broomfield, Colorado
Well I have a unique perspective here:
I worked at a normal LBS for years (www.loftsports.com) When I was there I did sales, I was a tech, I did the buying and I dealt with the customers.
Now I work at a mail order company (www.excelsports.com) Here, I am a sales guy and if so inclined I will do some minor service work.
My experiences have taught me a lot about this industry some of it surprises me in reality.
When I worked in a LBS I though that mail order companies are just a bunch of people sitting around taking orders, there is no way that they can know as much as those of us in the trenches out here dealing with interesting problems everyday and learning new stuff about all kinds of old and new product because of hands on experience.
I was wrong, the people I work with (and I am sure that this translates to most other companies as well) are the most knowledgeable people I have ever encountered. Working at a mail order company puts you in a position where you speak to at least 50 people a day. Those people all have their unique problems or projects. Each one of these you need to know what the solution is or be able to find out really quickly. Almost everyone at my shop can answer some of the most obscure questions. Not to mention that there is an abundance of product that flows through the building everyday. We get to see the latest and greatest in real life ,that most LBS’s only see in the catalog or magazines. Why do we want to know all this knowledge off the top of our head? In reality most mail order companies are paid on commission. So efficiency is a good thing. If I can tell you the front derailleur clamp size of just about any bike made or the BB type or what spring it is that you will need to make your campy ergolever shift again, and I can do that without going back and asking a mechanic then I have saved time and I can take another call. I want to know the answer to every question. (except the popular “what is the most comfortable saddle”)

So the point here is that Mail order shops can be very helpful if you are to the point and direct with what your problem or project is. An LBS is willing to go the extra mile (usually) to keep your business.
Both will continue to stay in the running and both I feel are necessary to the industry.

Also
OEM- yes it is original equipment for bike, but no mail order companies can not easily take advantage of this. (At least not in my experience) My example Rockshox: We have OEM RS products; if we are caught selling these products for a profit (not included on a fork) then we can loose our privileges to OEM equipment immediately. There are actually people that come into our showroom and occasionally attempt to buy an OEM fork because they were instructed to test us. Now at the end of season we are given permission to sell off the old OEM. Also if it is OEM then it is going to be stamped on the steer tube. If you buy a fork that you bought as a retail fork (not advertised as OEM) and it has a stamp that says something like Warranty void if installed as aftermarket product (or something like that) then you need to talk to the company you bought it from.

Gray market- Yes there are companies that buy stuff gray market, and in fact not all of them are small companies! However it is defiantly not the only reason that prices are so low in Mail order. It is all about quantity and whom you buy from. We buy Direct from Campy, Shimano etc and buy parts by the case or even the pallet. I know that our minimum order that we place on XTR chains is 500 units. That is our minimum!! When I worked at the LBS we would buy 20.

Oh and as far ar RM’s experience. Sometimes I don’t get it! There is no reason that a bike shop should hold a bike for a week for a small and simple procedure. In my opinion when I worked at The Loft, I had no desire to have extra bikes in the shop. I wanted them all out as fast as possible. Now conversely, Boulder is a unique place. There are so many riders in such a small area that it is amazing how quickly every one of the LBS’s gets packed full of projects. But just remember Beer always greases the wheels when you stop by an LBS. :D
 

Fulton

Monkey
Nov 9, 2001
825
0
ok, maybe this has already been covered, I worked at a shop, I know what wholesale prices are. My question is, if it something the shop doesn't have in stock, ie, special order product, why can't they match mail order prices. For example, say i want to buy a fork that retails for $400. I can get it mail order for $350. wholesale/shop cost is shop $300. with the shops normal mark up, to put the product on the floor, they would charge full retail, or $400. For something that is already sold, why can't they match the mail order price and sell it to me for $350? Granted, they would only be making half their profit margin, but there would be no sales involved, all they would have to do is place 2 phone calls, one the the distributor, and one to me when the fork arrives. That $50 their making is alot better than the $0 they would make when I buy it from the mail order company.
 

Motionboy2

Calendar Dominator
Apr 23, 2002
1,800
0
Broomfield, Colorado
Originally posted by Fulton
ok, maybe this has already been covered, I worked at a shop, I know what wholesale prices are. My question is, if it something the shop doesn't have in stock, ie, special order product, why can't they match mail order prices. For example, say i want to buy a fork that retails for $400. I can get it mail order for $350. wholesale/shop cost is shop $300. with the shops normal mark up, to put the product on the floor, they would charge full retail, or $400. For something that is already sold, why can't they match the mail order price and sell it to me for $350? Granted, they would only be making half their profit margin, but there would be no sales involved, all they would have to do is place 2 phone calls, one the the distributor, and one to me when the fork arrives. That $50 their making is alot better than the $0 they would make when I buy it from the mail order company.
With parts that can work sometimes but you have to understand that there is never 100% profit.
They get a fork for you at lets say $300
They pay the shipping of say $10
Now here is the strange part...On average in order to have a successfull bike shop you need to make approximatly 35% (from an old Bicycle Retailer article) inorder to pay all the bills and to keep yourself in the business.
35% of $300 is $105.
Now of course there are higher margin items and lower margin items but the thing is BIKES HAVE NO MARKUP.
The largest selling item has a markup of usually no more than about 30% (if i remember correctly, I havent played buyer in a while) their markup can be as low as 20% . THat really cuts into the overall scheme of things. Retailers like to protect prices so that it gives value to the product and so they can stay in business.

Does that help?
 

Drunken_Ninja

Turbo Monkey
Aug 25, 2002
1,094
1
Hangin' with Riggs and Mertah
My local bike shop in Toronto charges 1% over cost on valuable parts and gives away most of the service for free. On new bikes...(3 years free labour)

I worked there 2 years for $8 CDN an hour never once getting a raise, watching unqualified people get hired above me while working for the lowest wages. When I finally said 'where is my piece of the action?', it was after had already quit.

They did pull in 60.1 million dollars a year with a loss of approximately 1.2million in shrinkage. (Giving away stuff, techs breaking stuff and theft)

I loved the business and working with the product. I managed to outlearn my co-workers in the shop. Good-luck with your future endeavours.

Ex-employee of Sporting Life Bikes & Boards Toronto, ON, Canada

I own my tools and I usually pay half price for bicycle deals everywhere I go and my bicycle is indestructable. Proficiency is a beautiful thing!
 

Motionboy2

Calendar Dominator
Apr 23, 2002
1,800
0
Broomfield, Colorado
Originally posted by Drunken_Ninja
My local bike shop in Toronto charges 1% over cost on valuable parts and gives away most of the service for free. On new bikes...(3 years free labour)

I worked there 2 years for $8 CDN an hour never once getting a raise, watching unqualified people get hired above me while working for the lowest wages. When I finally said 'where is my piece of the action?', it was after had already quit.

They did pull in 60.1 million dollars a year with a loss of approximately 1.2million in shrinkage. (Giving away stuff, techs breaking stuff and theft)

I loved the business and working with the product. I managed to outlearn my co-workers in the shop. Good-luck with your future endeavours.

Ex-employee of Sporting Life Bikes & Boards Toronto, ON, Canada

I own my tools and I usually pay half price for bicycle deals everywhere I go and my bicycle is indestructable. Proficiency is a beautiful thing!
60.1 Million per year is...i would have to say a little more than a normal LBS but even so 1% over cost doesn't cover shipping let allone rent/morgage or employees. I think there must be something that you were overlooking. Maybe they had 1% markup on a select few items, or during a sale, but all the time! That would put you out of business in a hurry.
 
R

RideMonkey

Guest
My observations on common LBS service problems:

1. Mechanics who are also sales people. At a lot of shops every mechanic is also a sales person. I can remember many days where I would start a minor repair in the morning and not even finish that day because I was talking to customers. No wonder repairs never get done in a timely manner. Mechanics and sales people should be separate so the mechanics can do their jobs. If repairs get backed up mid-season, hire a drone to do repairs in the evening. I've done it. There are plenty of qualified mechanics out there that would do some evening work. This isn't rocket science.

2. You can't schedule a repair at a lot of shops. Thats right most shops don't allow you to schedule a few hours on a certain day. They need to have your bike for a solid week or longer so they can get to it when they get to it. No other service business could run this way. Not rocket science.

3. Hours. This is a recreational sport. What good is it to me if the bike shop closes every evening at 5:30, the same time I get off work? A lot of people leave early Saturday morning for a weekend excursion. I worked at one shop that stayed open until 9 Friday evenings to cater to the weekend warrior. This makes a lot of sense!!! Why is it that only 1 out of 10 bike shops understands that 9 to 5 are not good hours? One local shop is on the corner of a street that has a great deal of evening foot traffic. Many times I have found myself walking by looking into the windows, lots of people do. But are they open a few hours past the standard 5:30 closing time? Nope. This isn't rocket science.

The result of these issues is that I can't count on the LBS to support me during the season. I have to do it myself or I know that I will miss races, rides etc. So it follows that they will lose business to the mail order companies.

I have worked in bike shops for 5 years, and now I have been in a few other industries. One thing I know: you couldn't run any other business like a bike shop cuz you wouldn't make it.

Divide the shop into mechanical and sales people. Schedule repairs into blocks of time. Stick to this schedule at all costs. If this means mechanics have to stay after and hit the overtime then fine. Now you will say "that sucks for the mechanics"...... well would the mechanic think it sucked that hes getting paid 25% more because the shop is streamlined to the point that increased profitability results in increased pay? I think not. And guess whos doing this exact thing? Not the LBS but the mail order company. Excel Sports, which Motionboy works at, is a model for how things should be run. ie, employees focus on one thing and work hard at it and get good wages in the process. Its a modern, efficient business that benefits both consumer and employee.
 

powderboy

Monkey
Jan 16, 2002
258
0
See Dar Hills, OOTah
I've had this same quandary for years now. Since the advent of online shopping, I've been very loyal to JensonUSA and other online retailers for one simple reason... PRICE! It absolutely makes no sense to me to buy my parts somewhere and have to pay LBS prices and tax. I'm sorry, but I can install a new stem, wheelset, tires and plenty of other stuff myself.

We do have a great online/retail shop here in UT: AardvarkCycles.com. They are the ONLY shop I will go to in UT to have good work done. They do offer great prices and excellent service.

Good things about AardvarkCycles:
1. Allow you to piss in their bathroom :thumb:
2. Have a super knowledgeable staff
3. Have great prices and a good selection
4. Can order parts in quickly
5. Sponsor and schedule group rides and hangouts
6. They are an online/LBS...

Other shops in the area have outrageous prices and poor service.

I wish Aardvark had better hours though.

Sorry... my $$ goes to the online shops... And Wrenchscience.com builds an awesome, totally custom bike that I can't even dream of getting at a LBS.
 

Shmoe

Monkey
Oct 23, 2001
216
0
Calgary, Canada eh?
I work at a small shop. 3 Employees (Owner, Head Tech, and me, the other bike tech)

I only work three or so days a week (depending on how busy it is) the owner is more of a runner, so he doesn't have the essentive to learn more about bikes. So he runs the shop, 1 day a week, which is the slowest day. That leaves the head tech, he has to run the shop almost 100% for the next five days (this includes bike overhauls, building wheels, tune-ups, bleeding brakes, dealing with customers, etc.) Its alot of work for one person.The shop cant afford to hire more people, so its either have a shop where you *might* have to wait for a day or so to get somthing done, or have no shop at all.

Lots of the time mail order places sell products below delear cost, so there is not way a shop is gonna lose money to get you a product.

Fulton said that he wonders why shops dont just give him the deal and make the $50. We'll when a shop does that, word gets out and a few things happen; People who already bought that product come back and want some of their money back, People who know you got the product for cheap try to bargin down even lower then cheap. When this stuff happens, its more hassel then its worth to make $50 or whatever.

Bike stores almost make no money on sales. Its all in bike maintence. 90% of the work most bike shops do it somthing like (Tune up brakes on bike from 1960, get bike shifter better, and put on a new driveside crank) wow, sounds like fun.
 
Originally posted by powderboy
We do have a great online/retail shop here in UT: AardvarkCycles.com. They are the ONLY shop I will go to in UT to have good work done. They do offer great prices and excellent service.

Other shops in the area have outrageous prices and poor service.
I just HAVE to comment now! These comments hit home!

First off, my general take on this LBS vs. Internet is that MOST of the time, for parts that are expensive, online is where I go. If I ever do buy at the LBS, it's because either A) I ask and they are willing to try and match the online guys B) they have a part I need NOW and it's in stock or C) I do feel charitable and want to "support" them. This is because the way they've treated me makes me want to do so, a HUGE factor in if I want to "support" them or not.

About the "OTHER shops" in the SLC/Provo area here's my take on the ones I've had experiences with. Most of them are reasons why a DON'T go to LBS for parts or service. A few of them win my AWARD for EXCELLENCE:monkey:

Bingham's Cyclery in Provo: Bunch of Stoners!:evil: If you ever DO go in there, talk to the owner, Kevin. But even then I'd be leary. He'll tell you that everything they have there is the shiznit. When I was deciding between a Bullit frame and the 2002 Enduro frame, I went there since they were the Specialized dealer. He totally talked down SC and said they're going to go out of business if they keep selling frames so cheap. He kept talkin' about how Specialized "knows their sh*t" and talked it up like it was the best thing since apple pie. Hmm, two months later, Specialized recalls those frames.:think: Who knows what the CS would have been like with him. Regardless, I'm glad I chose the Bullit not because of the recall, but because it totally fit my style of riding better, AND I got it for less than the Enduro.

Taylor's Bike Shop: :nope: This gives a HOLE new meaning (no pun intended) to the phrase: bend over and grab your ankles:eek: :eek: !!!
1)Don't even THINK about asking to borrow a tool, not even an Allen wrench! They'll look at you like you asked them to kill someone.
2)Half their in-stock products are 3 years old and they're still trying to sell them for what they retailed back then.Once I went in there to get my steer tube cut on the new fork I was going to install. They said it'd be $3 because of "wear & tear" on the blade. OK, sure, sounds perfectly fair to me. When I was marking where the cut needed to be, one of the stupid mechanics kept hanging over my shoulder and INSISTED that I make the line a little bit higher, saying I need to be safe and not cut it too short. So fine, I put the line up higher. Then they cut it and I start to install it. Hmm, sure enough, it was too long. So I asked to cut it to the correct length, and they said it'd be ANOTHER $3!!! WTF??? $6 is nothing, but the fact that they wanted to charge me TWICE, when they were the idiots who told me where to make the first cut! I've got numerous other stories about how retard Taylor's is but I'll spare you all.

Outdoors Unlimited: This "shop" is a complete ABOMINATION.:stupid: These guys are complete IDIOTS!! Idiots, I tell you! Don't EVER, EVER go there to have your bike worked on. You might just end up in a body cast!:dead:
I shrink in horror to think that Ellsworth actually allowed them to be "authorized" dealers.

Aardvark Cycles: Ditto what powderboy said!:thumb: The ONLY place I go to get work done, and that's only because I don't have all the tools (ie headset press/remover, truing stand). Very friendly. Knowledgeable? Well, most of the time. I've heard them say a few wacky things. John, Travis, Blain...they're all great guys.

1) You don't have to fear asking about price matching. They're willing to hear you out. Sometimes they'll do it, sometimes they won't. Sounds fair to me.
2)If you need a small odd part, like a bolt or cable ferrule, they'll usually just give it to you for free, unlike Taylor's (about $2 each)
3)They'll let you use their tools. I've been lucky enough that they let me use their truing/dishing tools to build my wheels!!!

About "Can order parts quickly". Well, that's only if you hound them. John is notorious for spacing out. He'll forget unless you keep calling them/reminding them. Make sure you specify as well, or you'll get something you didn't order. Otherwise, this is the best LBS bar none in Provo.

Bike Peddler (American Fork): These guys are total PRICKS!!:eviltongue: Again, when I was deciding between Bullit/Enduro I went there since they're the SC dealer. I asked if they had any in Medium or Small that I could Test ride. They told me "Are you kidding? We're not going to let you test ride one, they're too nice a bike. Besides we don't have any that size " WHAT the :devil: ??? So let me see,:think: you expectto plunk down $1100 without even Test Riding it? Give me a f:dead: :dead: king break!!!
Later, when I did have a Bullit (I ended up getting it off eBay) I needed to swap my 450lbs spring for a 500. I called them and they said it's be $45. I asked if they could swap me for mine, since it was BRAND NEW and a genuine Fox spring. They said absolutely not. Besides, they said, no-one would ever need one. What??? A 450lbs spring, which according to SC is for those who weigh 140-180 lbs? Yeah:rolleyes:, NOBODY fits into that category. I could understand if it was truly something they couldn't get rid of, but there's plenty of people who could have used the spring. Just go in there and talk to them yourselfs; total attitude.

T&T Bike and Ski: If you must buy from a SC dealer, these are the guys. TALK to TRUDY!!! She frickin' rocks!!! These guys WERE willing to let me trade my 450lbs spring for a 500lbs one, even though I didn't purchase my Bullit frame from them. In return I went ahead and paid $25 for them so switch my headset/fork from my previous bike, AND I paid them RETAIL for a Thomson seatpost. Again, it's HOW PEOPLE TREAT YOU that makes you willing to pay more!!!

Go-RIDE: These guys kick BUTT!!:D :thumb:

1) While not always as cheap as other internet sites, these guys have the best prices of ANY LBS in the Utah Valley. Some items are the best deal on the net.
2) While any of the guys there could run circles around most riders anywhere, they DON'T HAVE and ATTITUDE. Scott and Kripsy are some of the NICEST guys I've ever met.
3) When I was shopping for a DC fork they let me ride a Balfa 2 step w/ LR-1 and an Azonic Eliminator w/ Super T, and I don't remember even giving them a driver's liscence!
4) I bought a Titec El Norte saddle on eBay. I got and and realized I'd rather have the Berserker DH. I called them up and they said I could trade it, plus $10. You see! Even though my saddle was worth more, I was willing to do it because THEY were willing to work with me and get me what I wanted.


SOOOO, If I had to give an AWARD of EXCELLENCE to LBS, it would be:

Go-RIDE and Aardvark Cycles tied for 1st place

T&T Bike and Ski for 2nd

Wow, that was long:o:
 

Rustmouse

Chimp
Aug 9, 2002
77
0
Olympia, WA
That's really the key to the LBS survival... you don't see the mail-order companies flogging through the forest posting arrows on trees the week before the race, you don't see a mail order company running shuttle rigs on the weekends on a break-even basis to promote mountain biking, you don't see mail order companies searching bicycle graveyards for a 70's shimano 3 speed part so they can fix your antique, you don't drop in to your mail order shop to find out about other trails in the area because yours have become stale, you don't get to test ride a mail-order frame to make sure it's gonna fit you, you don't roll into a mail-order place for a quick diagnosis of yer ride/bike/mechanical problem... and so on....

The LBS will probably always be the domain of the small operator because of the customer base they have available. By the same token, however, the mail-order places don't have to offer services that customers basically take for granted (and expect to be free)

As far as the auto business vs. bike business... Keep in mind, there are something like 100 times as many cars on the road as bicycles. There are auto parts stores on every street corner, and the volume of parts business they do means that they can afford to keep most parts in stock (or 24 hours away). Auto shops charge anywhere from $55 to $100 an hour for shop labor, and they bill using the "Book", a list of the estimated hours it would take for a total neophyte to complete an automotive task (3 hours to change an alternator on a Ford... last one took me 24 minutes, including the trip to get the part).

You're better off comparing bike shops to another type of recreational shop, like motorcycle repair... there you'll see that similar problems exist.. not every part in stock, you can't guarantee a cycle will be done by 5pm tomorrow, you can't just run down to Pep Boys and pick up a new chain for it, etc...

I wish we could guarantee that something a customer wants will be there in 24 hours or less...

All I can do is ensure that I do my best for them.

I don't expect you to pay high prices if there's an alternative, but then you can't expect me to have everything you want in stock when you want it (cause you keep going elsewhere for it) Repairs are the main thing that a bike shop has to ensure profitability, but you can't keep a good tech if you only have him part time.... and with bikes, the work usually dries up when the weather turns sour. Consequently, your bike may take longer (especially when there's a basket case huffy that got turned in ahead of yours) and we can't predict exactly when it'll be done. I could always ask you to wait to break your bike until the winter, when we have more time and less work, then we'd be able to promptly get your bike serviced...
 
Aug 3, 2002
30
0
Jacksonville:Florida
I already had my defend the underdog thread, and one person, the NZer said it best again.


Your local LBS is usually very instrumental in keeping local trails bike -friendly and open ( with conjuction of Clubs or by their lonely selves)

They are the one that sponser the local races that you learn to get good enough to ride and be allowed to compete in profesional races.


Where would ANY famous rider be without his first small sponsers that got him noticed by the big guys.

Name me THREE internet companies that are not the actual producers of th eproduct that promote races Big or Small.

It is usually the kronies of ONE of your LBS who end up with trail maintainence.!

Internet isnt evil and a good deal isn't gonna break the retail industry.
 
Aug 3, 2002
30
0
Jacksonville:Florida
edit: finish statement....





BUT, one must accept and support the place of the LBS in the Mtn. Biking ecosystem.
Don't want to make them a spotted owl of biking, but neither do we want to nearly eradicate them like the wolf only to find they had a key in keeping their chain of life healthy!
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
Stop your stinking whining! When I am saving $$$ on bicycle parts I am not spending it on filet mignon!!! I am spending it on MORE BIKE PARTS! More is better for me and the bike industry! Most of what I buy for upgrades I really don't need but I'll buy them if the price is right cause I are American! Right now I have 5 bikes and a pretty new frame that needs to be built, if my LBS isn't making money off me it's not my fault - it's theirs!

Uh... is it OK for consumers to rant too?:confused:
 

Eng-Rider

Chimp
Mar 23, 2002
5
0
Idaho Falls, ID
The other day I was having the freehub body on my wife's beater replaced at our LBS and I thought to myself; how does this place stay in business? The whole shop is filled with crapped out Huffys and older name brand bikes that the owner sends to Africa as humanitarian service. He stocks about 10 bikes (Diamondbacks or Univegas) and has a couple of shelves of very low end parts that I wouldn't put on my bike if I was a hobo.

After a moment it came to me. The reason the shop stays in business (for the last 18 years) is Fred. Fred is the Owner/Mechanic and his wife and kids help out most afternoons when the business picks up. Although his shop is filled with crap, he has a nice set of tools hanging on the wall and even if he had never heard of Chris King, he had my rear hub apart and fixed in about 10 minutes.

I do most of my own maintenance, but if I have a seriously tweaked wheel, need a bottom bracket chased or need my road bike tuned (me tuning a road bike is ridiculous) I head down to Olympic Bike and Skate. Fred generally fixes everything on the spot and the last tune up for my road bike cost me $19! - including new brake pads. The freehub body replacement cost me $25 including parts. He couldn't get the freehub body replaced in time for a ride I was doing with the Boy Scouts (one of them was going to use my wife's beater) so he loaned me one of his bikes for free.

His wife told me that after 18 years of business they own their house, all their cars, the shop and the three adjacent shops and have a good amount tucked away for retirement. She thanked God for their good fortune and that may very well be a part of it. However, she should also thank their good business practices that have lead to many, many repeat customers.

Sure, I buy most of my parts online. If I have a sticky problem, however, I go down and see Fred. I also encourage my friends and associates to patronize his shop. Olympic Bike and Skate is by far the crappiest looking shop I have ever been in, but it has the best service and repair that I have ever seen either.

Sort of the best of both worlds, support your LBS and still save money.
 
Aug 3, 2002
30
0
Jacksonville:Florida
Still waiting to hear 3......?

Though the I thought the original intent of the story was asking WHY you should support the LBS a little heavier than mail order, NOT is mail order cheaper and is cheaper better.

As a consumer I want cheap too, but I dont buy grey market anything.
I no longer have my beaverskin coat (would be jacket length now-I've grown 4 inches in height) nor my leaopard (full length, size 10) one for the same reasons. They WERE perfectly legal when they were first assembled and sold. But their beauty and currrent illegal status would make other want them too. They became blackmarket items, so I burnt them.(And I am not no greenie I like STEAK and FUR)

Any site that sells shimano cranks cheaper than Shimano itself should be suspect for sure. And OEM marketeers can sell cheaper than wholesale distributers (and of course retail) and still make marginal profit. Who can compete with that? But it is a fly-by-night business. I would like to buy that whole lot of santa cruz bullits that were meant for scrap and destruction and sell them to you for profit, hey $400 each! Only cost me the price in scrap metal! oh no, i cant do that..it's wrong. Well how about the frames I got cheap at OEM. I will make my site called "Da Parts Stor". I don't guarantee them or assemle em, just seel em cheap to you!.......Ect. Get the point?

And retail will always have A markup. Can't be helped. Overhead(that convienient location and building) will always need a small bite.

Who said anything about supporting the LBS to the point of puttin his kids in Harvard?
If he has a obviously greedy mark-up, then it can't be helped. If you think you were gouged..SAY SO!
Maybe it was mismarked? Maybe there was an added "employee charge" (Can happen in any type of small shop, and big. Even a K-Mart can catch an employee dippin the til or doing price mismarking).

Once you start namin names of a shop, it would only be fair to be sure of the problem and why. Was it a bad employee and do they STILL work there? Was it just you or a couple unlucky few, or is it gross mis-management and unethical practices?
And a good LBS will bend over backwards to make up for a mistake on their part.
Our town has several good shops. I favor one above all and am totally against only 1.
Good odds. Each has things that make them not quite the "perfect" shop. The one I favor, I put contant consumer input and suggestion to. And I am thrilled to see evovle to a superior form!
On the other hand, if the Mgr/owner looks you in the eye over a problem caused by them and says tough titty? Dont GO BACK!
On my local board, I shamelessly plug my favorite local shop by name, and without dissing the other shops, saying they suck or anything.
As a consumer/kronie it is up to me to help word-of -mouth and make sure the reputation stays platimum. That means making complaints on the less sterling aspects(so they change!)
:D
I RAVE not RANT. I am not angry, I'm just a lobbyist and advocate. Opinions are still just that. But it is always good that the whole picture is presented before molding an opinion in iron.
(and that's prolly why I am so long winded-
Ive been an actual Lobbyist before)
 
Aug 3, 2002
30
0
Jacksonville:Florida
So that one phrase doesnt cause a problem to the narrow reader.....
It cant be helped.....CHANGE
It can be helped-dont pay it.

My settings loses my place a lot-dern mac!
So I have to reregister a lot and lose my posts for editing:o:
 

Merwin5_10

Don't Mess With Texas!
Jul 6, 2001
153
0
Austin, Texas
Originally posted by Nobody
This will probably choke me to death, but here's my 8 cents worth.

...

Rant over.
Get out of the industry. You seem bitter and angry. If this is true, how could you focus on making people excited about riding?

In my experience, it doesn't matter what you know. Its how you relate what you know to others and how you service there needs. I know dozens of top grade mechanics that I would'nt hire to change my tire because their attitudes are elitest, smug and condesending. Who needs that?
 
Nov 28, 2001
56
0
GWN-ON-TO
Originally posted by Merwin5_10


Get out of the industry. You seem bitter and angry. If this is true, how could you focus on making people excited about riding?

In my experience, it doesn't matter what you know. Its how you relate what you know to others and how you service there needs. I know dozens of top grade mechanics that I would'nt hire to change my tire because their attitudes are elitest, smug and condesending. Who needs that?


So what you're saying is that all any bike shop needs are friendly, helpful people who work for about 8.50/hr and can't build wheels, and tells the customer, in a pleasant, helpful way, that his Psylo fork needs to go back to Rock Shox because the 'damping has blown'.

You're also saying that the best mechanics you know have the worst personalities. hm. nothing to say there, I think, since I used to be a mechanic.

So, happy friendly people with little to no knowledge of the rising complexities of bicycle technology are key to keeping an LBS afloat.

If you feel that you are more than knowledgeable enough to handle virtually any repair, I cannot disagree. You probably CAN do all that, and more. So all you need is a few zesty, youthful trail-maintenance-volunteers who love working with people and your position in the bicycle world is inviolate.

Well, you ARE god.

What I've seen too much of, though, is the abysmal pay for 'wrenches' to work in shops that PURPORT to be High-Tech Mountain Bike Specialists, or some such rot.

A guy I know has an XCR Idrive. He kept getting a 'squeaking' noise out of the rear shock, so he took it back to the shop he bought it at and they 'greased' the pivot bearings. It was a Fox, utilizing DU bearings (I won't go into the reasons why you don't grease DU bearings) but the greasy muck attracted a lot of grit. The bushings wore out and the squeaking returned. They greased it again. And away he went.

About here is where he told me about it. I told him he needed, at the very least, new bearings and reducers. I asked if he'd mind me looking at his bike. Fine. I did. During a simple test, I discovered that the frame was buckling.

Why did I check for frame alignment? A) I know too much about XCR-Idrives buckling at the shock mount. B) DU bearings don't squeak. The squeak came from an unbalanced side-load on the reducers, causing them to creak.

But the guys at the LBS sure were friendly.

Well worth the 7-9 bucks an hour they cost the owner. 'Course, now they have to warranty a frame that could have been saved in the first place, but hey, that's just the cost of doing business.
 

Str8Dwn

Chimp
Dec 4, 2001
46
0
ATL
I had a really great experience with a LBS and a manufacturer this weekend I thought everyone should know about.

Story: I needed a fork asap for this weekend, as the fork I ordered from Planet-X didn't arrive on time. Buying older fork from his race team.

I also ordered a wheelset from Atomic Labs in enough time for it to arrive for the weekend, and they were shipped ground, so I wouldn't see them until after he weekend, ie. no ride.

Atom Labs overnighted me another wheelset no charge. :thumb:

I call a LBS, Reality Bikes in North GA, and one of their mechanics, Dave, has just the fork I need (at his house 45 minute drive each way). He goes home to get it, meets me at the shop (this is Friday afternoon BTW). He installs the fork no charge, then sees that I ordered the wrong wheelset (front hub). I needed a QR20 hub, instead of the normal 20mm. The owner of the shop says he can re-lace the entire wheel, and does using the existing spokes and new QR20 hub. NO CHARGE! By this time its 5:00pm on a Friday, and no one complained about helping out and staying late. These guys defintely deserve some thanks, and they should receive a nice case of their favorite beer this week as thanks.

I am in the bike industry, and when I do have the cash for a new Bullit, I plan on buying it from them at retail if they ask me to pay that much. Without their help, I wouldn't have been able to ride at all.

Thanks!
Ryan
 

Merwin5_10

Don't Mess With Texas!
Jul 6, 2001
153
0
Austin, Texas
Originally posted by Just Lookin'...




So what you're saying is that all any bike shop needs are friendly, helpful people who work for about 8.50/hr and can't build wheels, and tells the customer, in a pleasant, helpful way, that his Psylo fork needs to go back to Rock Shox because the 'damping has blown'.
....

Read into this whatever you like.

What I am saying is that knowing alot about bikes does not give you the right to be disrespectful to anyone. If you have a problem with what you are paid, take it up with your employer, not out on the shop's customers. If you are still not happy, get out.

Its interesting that some techs I've spoken to act as if they posess this elusive gift of mechanical affenity that "mere mortals" are incapable of attaining. Get real, I hire people that have supperior service skills, a strong interest in biking, at least two years experiecne in the industry (sales, service, etc.) AND a superior attitude. You'll notice, please, that knowing which end of a screwdriver goes where is only part of the equation. Some people completely lack the other components. I DON'T NEED THEM. I DON'T WANT THEM.

If that makes me a god. So be it. Its my job to ensure my customers TRUST the people they meet at my shop. When a hot headed tech pops off in an offensive way, or acts out of frustration towards them, or in any way allienates them by what is said or done, that trust is damaged. And I appologize, but that's just not acceptable to me.
 
Nov 28, 2001
56
0
GWN-ON-TO
Originally posted by Merwin5_10


Read into this whatever you like.

What I am saying is that knowing alot about bikes does not give you the right to be disrespectful to anyone. If you have a problem with what you are paid, take it up with your employer, not out on the shop's customers. If you are still not happy, get out.

Its interesting that some techs I've spoken to act as if they posess this elusive gift of mechanical affenity that "mere mortals" are incapable of attaining. Get real, I hire people that have supperior service skills, a strong interest in biking, at least two years experiecne in the industry (sales, service, etc.) AND a superior attitude. You'll notice, please, that knowing which end of a screwdriver goes where is only part of the equation. Some people completely lack the other components. I DON'T NEED THEM. I DON'T WANT THEM.

If that makes me a god. So be it. Its my job to ensure my customers TRUST the people they meet at my shop. When a hot headed tech pops off in an offensive way, or acts out of frustration towards them, or in any way allienates them by what is said or done, that trust is damaged. And I appologize, but that's just not acceptable to me.

So, you assume that I must have been one of those boorish, elitist, rude and uncaring 'technocrats'?

Actually, I spent most of my time servicing customers. Yep. Free work, i went to several people's homes to follow-up on repairs that weren't up to spec, and brought them coffee and pastries while they waited. If any customer wasn't satisfied with a repair, I didn't charge them for it. This wasn't about bleeding disc brakes - it was tune-ups on 20-year-old POS's that wouldn't work any better with or without a tune-up. If we fixed a flat tire and the customer came back within 24hrs with another flat, we'd fix it for free.

We'd special order anything for anybody and never charged the freight. If we didn't have it in stock, well, we took it on the chin, but the customer got the stuff they wanted. If the special order took more than one week to arrive, we called the company for an update and then called the customer.

I did volunteer work with all the local public schools and the Sheriff's dept when they had their Bicycle Safety Rodeos. On my own time, I tightened bottom brackets, adjusted brakes, adjusted gears, pumped tires, and checked hubs on over 420 kid's bikes.

I guess we have to agree to disagree.
 

Merwin5_10

Don't Mess With Texas!
Jul 6, 2001
153
0
Austin, Texas
Quite the contrary. You'll notice I've made no direct comment toward you. I don't know you. I commented on my experience. If it hits home, my appologies. I am not trying to get personal. And I've made not assumptions about you at all. I have noticed that you seem to be taking my posts personally.

I am not targeting individuals here. But based on what people are writting on this thread, the hostility some people are displaying (not addressing you here), and obvious frustration and discontent they have, I am beginning to understand how service falls short in many shops.

Understand what I am saying. I see people equate time spent in this industry as proof positive that thay are the best. I know one tech that can tell you the thread pitch of just about any BB on any bike produced. It amazes me what he remebers. But if you were to ask this guy yourself why he hasn't been able to keep a job for longer than 4 months, he will tell you he has a tempter. He once told a customer to f**k off because the customer questioned his repair.

!?!?!?!?

Add to this the service RM has described in the shops he visits. It paints a very poor picture of our industry. Having a strong vested intrest in seeing this industry succeed, it concerns me to hear these things.
 

Serial Midget

Al Bundy
Jun 25, 2002
13,053
1,896
Fort of Rio Grande
MR MERWIN

From my vantage point of many states away :D and only having your posts to go on... you seem to be at war with your customers. Based on this thread I would not be comfortable dealing with you on a business level. My LBS is going through the same crap you are but they do not blame the consumer, nor do they expect the consumer's undying loyalty. They have been in the bicyle business since 1908 and have always been a small independent.

Since I do not know you and would not likely have the 'opportunity' to do business with you, my observation probably does not matter. I can assure you that I am fair minded and level headed - I do not begrudge any business person a fair profit. I would, however, seek alternate sources if I felt my LBS was not appreciative of the business I brought them.
 

Merwin5_10

Don't Mess With Texas!
Jul 6, 2001
153
0
Austin, Texas
How did you come to this conclusion?

The only tension I've been involved with in this thread is with shop employees. Not with customers. Maybe go back and re-read the posts. As to customer undying loyalty, read my intial post again. My intention was to get people thinking about a very hot topic in the bike community. I feel it has been affactive. I, for one, have gotten a ton of information about how different people see bike shops, the bike biz and how they forsee the future of bicylce retail. All this information helps me to do my job better. I don't see this as war.
 
Nov 28, 2001
56
0
GWN-ON-TO
Originally posted by Merwin5_10
Quite the contrary. ...etc.

Key Point- "I know one tech that can tell you the thread pitch of just about any BB on any bike produced. It amazes me what he remebers. But if you were to ask this guy yourself why he hasn't been able to keep a job for longer than 4 months, he will tell you he has a tempter. He once told a customer to f**k off because the customer questioned his repair."
Let's both take a very deep breath.

ahhhhhhhhhhhh <wait for it> haaaaaaaaaa.

I'm sorry if I came across as an aggrieved victim - that wasn't my point.

Your point, up there, is 100% true-to-life, I'm afraid. Sack that biatch!

What was MY point? I'm afraid I came into the conversation half-way, so let me start over.

I like dealing with people - all kinds - and I've been in retail for 20 years (not just bike shops).

And I agree that no one, no matter how 'technically inclined' should treat consumers with anything other than politeness, respect and consideration.

What I've read here seems to be a bit mis-construed, so I'll try to define what I see and what I think is the case.

MO vs. LBS
MO is not going to go away. It's too convenient for too many people. It is not the be-all and end-all, but it is a COMPONENT in the Bike Biz, like it or not.

LBS's need to be 'Members Of the Community' in order to hold onto market share, thrive, survive, what-ever. In my town, there's a road-bike shop (only high end) that has a couch and a wide screen tv that shows tapes of Tour de France, Giro d'Italia, Paris-Roubaix, Worlds, Nationals, etc. The guy who owns the place is also the only one who works there. He is a medium-quality mechanic (I've fixed some of his Campy builds - he needs some finesse, it's true), but he is a very personalble guy and very willing to work with his customers on price. He's into all the local rides, and is really good with people, even though he's an ex-racer.

Way down the street from him is another bike shop, a new one, that wants a piece of the road bike market. The guy running the shop is a total KoCK - super-opinionated and self-righteous. I've never had a direct run-in with him (I don't ride road enough) but virtually everyone I know who rides road has a negative experience to relate.

Guess which shop is not at all nervous? Yep. The Good Guy.

However, I've known two guys who worked for him. Both liked him, but both told me this: He doesn't want to pay someone to build bikes when he can do it himself. When he's really busy, he'll pay these guys minimum wage.

Now, he's perfectly right to do this. It's his business and the general results are apparent - he owns the road bike biz in THIS town! However, he's only a so-so mechanic. Fine. I make money on my off-days fixing some of his builds. Good for me. Whatever. I wish him every success.

It does tell me, though, that he doesn't really give a krap about technical excellence and absolutely devalues anyone who is a 'mechanic'.

What I'm saying, I hope, is that there [size=large]are[/size] a few rewards for working in the bike biz - one of them is getting to play with toys you love, and sharing this with other, like-minded people. If you like people, it gives you the chance to make their lives better by improving their freedom (I've helped many impaired adults with modifications to their bikes that allow them to ride, again, when they can barely walk - it's like a real religious experience, let me tell you!)

But face the facts - the economy doesn't give a break to bike shop rats any more than it does to anyone else.

Bicycle Retailer had some interesting data on this subject, although I can't find it on their site right now, that indicated the median wage for an LBS manager to be around 26k/yr. The US Dept of Labor reports the mean annual wage for 'bicycle repairers and servicers' (#49-3091) was, for 2000, $18,810. This is $2000 less than the mean annual wage for generic sales personnel - Sears, Banana Republic, Gap, Speedy Auto Parts, Pep Boyz, etc.

It is $4000 less than the average door-to-door salesman.

I am not trying to beat up on any owner of any bike shop. relax, 'k?. What I am trying to point out is that for an intelligent, well-spoken, adept and responsable person, being an employee in a bike shop requires significant sacrifice. Right now, 90% of the guys I know who work in the local shops share accommodation. If they're not living with Mom. Yeah, they sometimes have nice cars or trucks, but they don't keep the roof up over their heads all by their little lonesomes. One guy I know, 41, this year, excellent mechanic and fabulous with customers, has to keep his wife working because they can't afford not to. Yet she's on anti-depressants and suffers terribly from stress and really should quit her job and take a year off - but she can't, because he only makes about $28,000 a year. Rent is about 1/2 that. And he's the Manager of one of the biggest shops in the county.

Here is the problem, as I see it - the industry isn't healthy. It can't support, at the retail end, people who want to start and raise a familly, send their kids to college, take vacations once in a while, own a home.

Okay, slam me. You guys in some parts of the US/Canada CAN do all of the above. Fine. That's the exception, not the rule. Likely houses there don't go for $420,000 for a freaking 1-bedroom cottage, but SoCal is famous for that. (okay, leave SoCal, it's cheaper in Idaho - you ever been to Idaho? In the Winter? Phuck it, I'll top that - I'm off to Alaska! - oh, wait, bike season is only 4 weeks. Bummer.)

So, LBS's get short-changed too often and end up with employees they shouldn't have. Then, LBS's get a bad rap.

I believe Merwin5_10 runs a shop the way I would like to see ALL shops run - I would support such a shop by sending every and all bike-customer-chums to its front door.

However, the majority of shops are the reverse, and I beleive it is attributable to an industry-wide 'deficit' of training, certification, education, and testing. This, of course, costs money. And I find that very few LBS-Owners (that I have met and interacted with over the past 18years) would consider it an 'investment' as opposed to the prevalent view of 'loss-expenditure.'

Not ranting - trying to make a point - If I'm wrong, clobber me.

Also, I disagree with Serial Midget's feeling that Merwin has ANY problem with his customers - quite the contrary, I believe he's very respectful and courteous to them. I think maybe there's so much stuff going on in this thread that it's a bit confusing who is saying what to whom.