[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by Merwin5_10
How did you come to this conclusion?

I admit this is from another thread that had similar content but they are your words:

“Did you say bend over and get raped? You are right. That's exactly what happens when internet customers come in and we price match to an online source that pays 1/10 of what I do for the same product. I loose money to maintain your business because its worth more to keep you as a customer than the $50 bucks I lost on a part sale. Who gets raped? I do. When the base of my customers expect this. And if I choose to continue to price match to mail order vendors, I go out of business and RM can accuse me of being behind the times. From there, you guys feel free to call each other for info on how to fix you bikes. My techs will be a KFC filling your buckets. You want gravy with that?”

If I knew my LBS felt this was about me would make me very uncomfortable. I am far from my LBS’s best customer but I have spent over $3,000.00 on bike bits with them this year and a similar last year. Prior to that maybe $500.00 a year. I am also smart enough to know that customers like me do not show up everyday. Keep in mind that I have never purchased a built bike from them, all my $$$ are for parts and service. Expensive parts with decent margins: if the part costs them $100.00 including shipping then I pay $150.00 + tax. A fair deal for me and a decent profit for them. If my mechanic had written what you did I am pretty sure I would not go back. I like to think I am valued as a customer.

 

[Serial Midget]

Hmmm. Can't edit my last post for typos and missing words... whats up? Oh well. One more post credit.

 

[Merwin5_10]

Lookin'-

In agreement. The industry is unhealty. It rears its head in many forms, non of which are comforting.


Midget-
Although way out of context, true, they are my words. So goes the balance between crucial profits needed to stay in business and sacrificing those profits to ensure customer satisfaction. If this means I'm at war with customers, i disagree. If you were not valued as a customer, the deal would not have been cut. You would have been asked to pay full price, damned be the consequences. I believe that, very possibly misunderstood, my post does represent the frustration lbs's experince associated with deciding the right thing to do; for the customer, for the business, for the industry.

I guess I think to myself, if going into surgery, I'm not gonna barter price. If being defended in court, I'm not looking for the lowest bidder. If a guy fixes my Air Conditioner, its gonna cost me. But if I want to buy a bike or parts, its all negotiable.

That's just me. IMHO.

 

[Serial Midget]

Originally posted by Merwin5_10
...I guess I think to myself, if going into surgery, I'm not gonna barter price. If being defended in court, I'm not looking for the lowest bidder. If a guy fixes my Air Conditioner, its gonna cost me. But if I want to buy a bike or parts, its all negotiable.

If my AC was wacked I would get bids from 3 contractors and go with the one I felt most comfortable with. All things equal and I'm going with the lowest price. You must agree that the bike business is not 'surgery' or legal represenation...

I like a good deal on my little luxuries. I don't know about your shop but in my LBS it is very difficult to buy off the shelf as they cater to the mid to low range. I am not super high end but I do buy things that are not normally in stock, my purchases are based on the best I can afford at the time I order it. If I get a good deal I'll order higher quality stuff.

My last project was a complete rebuild on my Serotta road bike. All my LBS had to do was order the stuff I picked out of the catalog. Their cost was just under $1000.00, my cost including tax was around $1600.00, their mark up was $455.00 over the actual invoice, shipping was free on all orders over $500.00 so that was not an issue. Everything I purchased was priced below MSRP and competitive with catalog and internet prices. For no risk involved and a 24 hour turn around, I think that kind of margin is fine.

I cannot imagine how you would loose money on special orders, you'll know what it will take to be profitable as you negotiate the order. If you cannot meet the price your customer will not be angry, they'll be happy because you tried too - you might even make the sale anyway.

 

[Merwin5_10]

Originally posted by Serial Midget


If my AC was wacked I would get bids from 3 contractors and go with the one I felt most comfortable with. All things equal and I'm going with the lowest price. You must agree that the bike business is not 'surgery' or legal represenation...

No, its a business. Much like the Dr.'s office, or the lawyers fees for representation. BUT, since we retail things people use for fun activities, we have'nt the right to charge full price. I feel like at times customers have the conception we are out to screw them. I am probably wrong, but it feels like it simetimes.

BTW-in terms of mark up. (Honest question here, no flaming.) What is a good deal. From shop perscpective, I consider a good deal 10 -15% off retail. (Bear in mind, this in many cases is a third of my profits.) So, what is a good deal from a customer's perspective?

 

[Serial Midget]

When I buy off the shelf I get a 20% discount without asking. Not on built bikes though... not enough margin there.

When ordering from my LBS distributor catalog I am happy with their 50% mark-up but I always try to piggyback so that we can both take advantage of free shipping.

You and I both know that MSRP means squat, it is just a means to make the consumer feel good when they appear to be getting it for less...

It also depends on the final price, you can't expect much discount on a $20.00 sale... the higher the $$$ the sweeter the deal. I also feel that I must pay in cash and never by CC otherwise I am not holding up my end of the bargain. Iam always up front and honest - I don't waste my LBS's time unless I actually plan to purchase.

 

[Motionboy2]

Originally posted by Rustmouse
That's really the key to the LBS survival... you don't see the mail-order companies flogging through the forest posting arrows on trees the week before the race, you don't see a mail order company running shuttle rigs on the weekends on a break-even basis to promote mountain biking, you don't see mail order companies searching bicycle graveyards for a 70's shimano 3 speed part so they can fix your antique, you don't drop in to your mail order shop to find out about other trails in the area because yours have become stale, you don't get to test ride a mail-order frame to make sure it's gonna fit you, you don't roll into a mail-order place for a quick diagnosis of yer ride/bike/mechanical problem... and so on....

See i don't agree. I know that there are several teams that are run by mail order catalogs, there are lots of clubs that are sponcered by them and there are many events that they put on and volunteer at. You may not live near a mail order catalog so you don't get the exposure. Here in Boulder, Excel (which i work for) holds a couple races, mostly crit's because Excel is mostly a road shop. We sponcer a cat 1&2 team that is very competative and we volunteer at many of the races in the area even if we are not running it. You may or may not be able to testride a bike here but how many bike shops will take full body measurements, Make sure that the frame size is correct and explain the geometry of a bike and how different top tubes or angles will affect your specific fit. Not to mention give you a fit to the bike, making sure that every detail is taken into consideration. I know most shops that i walk into or have walked into in the past have generally said "stand over it, you should have 1 inch of clearance on a road bike and 2 inches on a mountain bike"

People in the mail order end of things want to know what is going on, they want to know as much as possible and the reason is because they are not making minimum wage. They are making good money and they love what they are doing.

Oh and if you can't come into the showroom then most mail order shops (the ones that know about cycling) will give you instructions as to how to get the measurements that are required and they will give you recomendations from that point.

Don't get me wrong LBS's are usually more personal on a regular basis but if you approach a mail order company the right way you will get personal service.

 

[RideMonkey]

On the subject of pay:

Of course as an experienced mechanic I didnt get squat for pay. To make it worse the shop made me show up 10-15 minutes prior to opening, then stay after closing until everything was locked up and done and I didn't get paid for that time.

Thats no way to motivate. We would stand around all day and talk about how much that pissed us off.

 

[Garrett]

Originally posted by RideMonkey
On the subject of pay:

Of course as an experienced mechanic I didnt get squat for pay. To make it worse the shop made me show up 10-15 minutes prior to opening, then stay after closing until everything was locked up and done and I didn't get paid for that time.

Thats no way to motivate. We would stand around all day and talk about how much that pissed us off.

omg 10-15min early

i have to show up 30min prior to opening, but my boss is really cool and working at the shop isn't bad...i can take off work to ride pretty much any time i want

as for time to do repairs and such that some of you are complaining about...yes it does suck to have to wait, but maybe some of you don't realize how quickly bikes come in during the spring and such. generally at the shop i work at bikes are in and out withing a day or two, but there are times in the spring when its a week or so turn out. personally i think a lot of you are being a bit over critical of some shops.

 

[Garrett]

Originally posted by RideMonkey
On the subject of pay:

Of course as an experienced mechanic I didnt get squat for pay. To make it worse the shop made me show up 10-15 minutes prior to opening, then stay after closing until everything was locked up and done and I didn't get paid for that time.

Thats no way to motivate. We would stand around all day and talk about how much that pissed us off.

omg 10-15min early

i have to show up 30min prior to opening, but my boss is really cool and working at the shop isn't bad...i can take off work to ride pretty much any time i want...that does suck that you didn't get paid for the extra time though, thats definetly bs

as for time to do repairs and such that some of you are complaining about...yes it does suck to have to wait, but maybe some of you don't realize how quickly bikes come in during the spring and such. generally at the shop i work at bikes are in and out withing a day or two, but there are times in the spring when its a week or so turn out. personally i think a lot of you are being a bit over critical of some shops.

 

[Garrett]

oops sorry for the double post

 

[Drunken_Ninja]

Of all the low down things that Shops do to their qualified staff:

Rip them off for their wages.
Demand that their employees be there early before the shift
Irregular hours like evenings, weekend days especially long-weekends and Boxing day.
Forget your yearly wage increases.
Hire unqualified staff for 1.5 times your salary and expect you to train them as your boss or superior.
Lose your pro-deals for months unneccesarily.
Lose your warranty returns.
Damage your finished work.
Give away your wages by not charging labour.
Give away free parts to those who complain.
Change your schedule to suit their days off and leave you behind for charity events.
Send you to work at race events for 13 night hours of the whole 24.
Tamper with your commuter bicycle. (when you were not looking)
Tamper with your good bicycle. (when you are watching)
Accuse you of stealing 60% of the product they inventory as being lost. (after giving it away themselves until inventory day)
Accuse you of Drug abuse when you are leaving the industry.
Rate your abilities below every one elses. (appeal to authority)
Undermine your integrity and sincerity.
Call you gay.
Ridicule you for the mistakes you made since you started even years after the fact.
Bore you to death with their 'sex' stories.
Ask out the female staff for you but only to **** on your chest.
Refuse references.
Innundate you with too much work.
Understaff the shop so that you have too much work.
Overstaff the shop to give to PT work when you don't need it.
Hire 3 managers per shop employee.
Hire sales staff that get paid over twice your wage in benefits and then give them free vacations or a mercededs benz for a week.
Steal the profits from the vending machine
Falsely accuse you of sexual assault.
Hire managers who believe in communication abuse.
Throw staff Christmas parties worth tens of thousands of dollars.
Give the customers better store discounts then you get.
Hire Buyers that don't appreciate your needs.
Lose orders for parts and make sure you get yelled at for the customers inconvenience.
Make sure you mop up the fecis when the toilet overflows.
Blame you for customer inconvenience.
Give away the shop tools to customers and blame employee theft.
Managers who bring the tools home and forget who has them.
Harass you for being a student or for spending money in their store.
Tell you that your opinion doesn't matter because no-one wants to believe you.
Treat shop guys worse than He-Bitches.

I could go on but I QUIT. Don't say that I didn't love that job nor would ever go back for better wages.

Ex-Shop Tech of Sporting Life Bikes and Board & Main Store.
Toronto, ON

 

[RideMonkey]

Originally posted by Garrett


omg 10-15min early

i have to show up 30min prior to opening, but my boss is really cool and working at the shop isn't bad...i can take off work to ride pretty much any time i want

as for time to do repairs and such that some of you are complaining about...yes it does suck to have to wait, but maybe some of you don't realize how quickly bikes come in during the spring and such. generally at the shop i work at bikes are in and out withing a day or two, but there are times in the spring when its a week or so turn out. personally i think a lot of you are being a bit over critical of some shops.

Lets say that every day I end up working a non-payed 30 mins between opening and closing. In a 23 day work month thats 11.5 hours. When you are making 8 bucks and hour you could sure use that extra 100 bucks!

 

[Garrett]

since you didn't notice in my second post..i did say that that is bs...it really does add up

i guess i'm just lucky with the shop i work at...i wouldn't mind a raise though...i haven't had one in like a year

 

[Merwin5_10]

Originally posted by Drunken_Ninja
Of all the low down things that Shops do to their qualified staff:

Rip them off for their wages.
Demand that their employees be there early before the shift
Irregular hours like evenings, weekend days especially long-weekends and Boxing day.
Forget your yearly wage increases.
Hire unqualified staff for 1.5 times your salary and expect you to train them as your boss or superior.
Lose your pro-deals for months unneccesarily.
Lose your warranty returns.
Damage your finished work.
Give away your wages by not charging labour.
Give away free parts to those who complain.
Change your schedule to suit their days off and leave you behind for charity events.
Send you to work at race events for 13 night hours of the whole 24.
Tamper with your commuter bicycle. (when you were not looking)
Tamper with your good bicycle. (when you are watching)
Accuse you of stealing 60% of the product they inventory as being lost. (after giving it away themselves until inventory day)
Accuse you of Drug abuse when you are leaving the industry.
Rate your abilities below every one elses. (appeal to authority)
Undermine your integrity and sincerity.
Call you gay.
Ridicule you for the mistakes you made since you started even years after the fact.
Bore you to death with their 'sex' stories.
Ask out the female staff for you but only to **** on your chest.
Refuse references.
Innundate you with too much work.
Understaff the shop so that you have too much work.
Overstaff the shop to give to PT work when you don't need it.
Hire 3 managers per shop employee.
Hire sales staff that get paid over twice your wage in benefits and then give them free vacations or a mercededs benz for a week.
Steal the profits from the vending machine
Falsely accuse you of sexual assault.
Hire managers who believe in communication abuse.
Throw staff Christmas parties worth tens of thousands of dollars.
Give the customers better store discounts then you get.
Hire Buyers that don't appreciate your needs.
Lose orders for parts and make sure you get yelled at for the customers inconvenience.
Make sure you mop up the fecis when the toilet overflows.
Blame you for customer inconvenience.
Give away the shop tools to customers and blame employee theft.
Managers who bring the tools home and forget who has them.
Harass you for being a student or for spending money in their store.
Tell you that your opinion doesn't matter because no-one wants to believe you.
Treat shop guys worse than He-Bitches.

I could go on but I QUIT. Don't say that I didn't love that job nor would ever go back for better wages.

Ex-Shop Tech of Sporting Life Bikes and Board & Main Store.
Toronto, ON

Go to work for Kathie Lee. She has better conditions in her Chinesse sweat shops.

 

[Drunken_Ninja]

Of all the low down things that customers do:

Use vegetable oil on their chain so that it congeals and becomes sludge.
Overflow the toilets.
Free toilet paper.
Desire pine-fresh bathrooms.
Break stuff unneccesarily by doing what they are not supposed to.
Cry poverty.
Beg for free parts.
Ask for parts off of new bicycles.
Demand free services.
Bring their entire family's bicycles in and refuse to use the air compressor outside.
Keep bicycles more than 3 years.
Collect antique bicycles and expect you to restore them every month for free.
Wear obsolete safety equipment or none at all.
Disassemble forks and forget how to put them together just to hand you all the pieces.
Refuse to replace broken equipment.
Demand free bicycles from manufacturers after 14 years of riding and cracking the seat-tube collar.
Get over-weight and destroy race frames and expect your shop to replace the frame 50/50 with the manufacturer.
Free service when extra problems arise.
Ignore their brake-pads when they have worn down to the steel and expect free replacements.
Expect a rim warranty after forgetting to true their wheels and breaking spokes.
Expect half off everything.
Don't want to pay for anything.
Ask out the female staff.
Yell at the shop staff and tell them they are not worthy of bearing the Rocky Mountain Bicycles name for no apparent reason.
Free parts and service at charity races.
Free trail maintenance and structures.
Ride nights with the store employees once a week.
Upside down oversized handlebars and stems.
Reimbursement for old Porche car tires because the business before yours was there owed them under waranty.
Steal RM7's with BB guns.
Steal 1.3 million dollars worth of product a year and expect you not to notice.
Expect their needs to be fulfilled in 3 minutes, regardless of the problem.
Expect to go ahead of the line-ups.
Think that cotton is better than cyclewear.
Believe that hydration is stupid.
Ride at night without lights because that would cost extra.
Think that dirty reflectors will add protection.
Ride for 150 miles without pumps, spare tubes, levers and patch kits.
Ride bicycles until they won't funtion instead of regular maintenance.
Try on cyclewear without any underpants on only to return them.
Consider your shop to be storage in the off-season.
Park there bicycles there for free tune-ups by manufacturing stories to keep their bicycle near the trail when they need it.
Pity shop staff.
Expect pity or compassion.
WHINE!
Wonder why their cranks fall off.
Don't think for themselves.
Ride bikes with lose stemsets.
Misuse equipment for the wrong purpose.
Cry when their stuff gets lost.
Leave stupid things on their bikes when they go for tune-ups and forget what happened to it.
Refuse to replace tires when they are about to blow-out.
Wear chains and cassettes unil their knees won't work anymore.
Won't register a wobble in the bike or pedal arms.
Use one frayed brake cable on the rear of the bike because a front brake would mean going over the handlebars.
Ask for cantilever equipment.
Ask for things over 3 years old.
Wonder why their pie plates get dirty.
Wonder why their pie plates are so big and move up and down when they pedal.
Think rust is a sign of respect.
Think singlespeed is for heros.
Lets forks cease up before wondering if they are still serviceable.
Order Cannondale parts midseason and expect their prompt return within a month.
Mangle disc brakes and expect you to true their rotors daily complaining that you didn't get it right the first time.
Ride bent levers instead of using a vice.
Expect a second quick release for cheap or allenkey replacement bolts to make their product more user friendly.
Ride bikes over 30lbs and wonder why sales-people expect that they want to replace their bike instead of upgrading it.
Break the standard equipment and expect rare euro-parts to be easily found to exceed their ability to break equipment.
Demand next years product without offering any specs to build it.
Expect that all bikes can be compared to Specialized at pricepoint.
'Broken' air shocks are the fault of the manufacturer and that the shop should keep their busted bike for 3 weeks in time for a replacement.
Free explanation to the instruction manual.
Throw away the manuals with good reason.
Bitch and moan when it happens 'to them'.

I could go on, though I already QUIT. I needed more wages so I took a vacation. Ex-Shop Mechanic/Assembler/Ski Tech/Racquet Tech/Snowboard Tech/Inline-Skate Tech.

SportingLife Bikes & Boards and Main Store. I think I miss being there for bicyclists the most!

 

[kaj]

When I bought my Klein per mail order back in 96, I went to *all* the local shops where I live (10'ish shops), and talked to them about it.
They could offer me the not-so-nice Pulse Comp with LX gear for the same price that I could get a top-of-the-line Attitude with full XT, better fork, top notch pedals and all.
When confronted with that, they also went the way of "100 % of nothing is better". I knew that they prolly couldn't match the MO offer, but at least they could work with me a little - but no.
So after I had a test ride and decided the right frame size, I went home and ordered my bike from Germany. Saved about 40% off the LBS' price...
5 days later the UPS guy delivered it at my doorstep and to my surprise everything was adjusted and trued to perfection.
Brakes, wheels and shifters worked absolutely flawlessly for months - which is a lot better than the tuneups said LBS does.
A really positive surprise for me, since it is so easy to just ship the bike away without doing preparation on it, knowing that a customer that is 1000 miles away probably wont come whimpering back if his wheels aren't perfectly true or the brakes don't work 100%.

So I guess that makes me a ****ty customer in the eyes of the LBS dudes, but I got the most of my money and I got *exactly* the bike that I had been drooling over since the early 90'ies.

I just couldn't live with the feeling that I was getting creamed if I have had to pay >50% more for the same piece of hardware.

The story repeats again, as I have been shopping for a Kona Stinky lately. I checked the Kona website and the prices online, and then went to talk to the LBS dude (another LBS), who without blinking, told me their prices that were up to 45% higher than MSRP... And the reason?
"We just don't sell enough of those bikes, so we have to keep the prices that high."

I wonder why...

Anyway, in my area even most of the cool bikeshops don't have the neat bikes in stock, so you can't even get that test ride or feel the bike up, before you smack your dough on the counter.
So where is the advantage of having a LBS in the matter of nice expensive parts and bikes?

I buy all of my parts such as wheels, disc brakes, stems a.s.o. at another one of the LBS's, because of their great prices, great service and great competence but guess what? They are also one of the largest mail order bike shops in the country...
I could save a few bucks going online, but not nearly enough to make it worth while, plus these guys usually take the time to chit chat and guide me when I'm buying stuff.

So I guess it comes down to the price after all - if the saving is big enough, I will not hesitate to buy from a well known and respected online dealer - no matter how nice and friendly the LBS folks are.

I'm not sure if i have a point or really contributed to the debate. This was probably also just a rant... Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Motionboy2]

Originally posted by Garrett


as for time to do repairs and such that some of you are complaining about...yes it does suck to have to wait, but maybe some of you don't realize how quickly bikes come in during the spring and such. generally at the shop i work at bikes are in and out withing a day or two, but there are times in the spring when its a week or so turn out. personally i think a lot of you are being a bit over critical of some shops.

I think the main complaint is scheduling. Most people are upset that their bike will not be done for a week and that the bike shop will have the bike for that whole time. It is best to schedule times for repairs for a day. So if the bike is due Tuesday then have them drop it off Monday night and it will be done by 5 the following day. That leaves the mechanic plenty of time for the repair (unless it needs parts that the shop doesn't have) and the customer is inconvienienced for the least amount of time possible. The goal is to keep the customer on the bike as much as possible. Every shop gets backed up but that doesn't meen that the customer should be away from their bike for 2 weeks.

Customers have a responcability to here. Think ahead! If you know the race is in two weeks call up and get a time in advance to drop the bike off for a race tune. Its not hard.

 

[Merwin5_10]

Here, here!

Bike shops do have an accoutability to their customers for repairs. I agree. BUT, when people come in at 3:00 pm on Friday saying they have a race tomorrow and need to have their bike fixed by 5:00 pm today "or else," we are put into a really tough situation.

What are we supposed to say? Plan better? My shop denies service all together if we know there flat "ain't" a way we can get it done in time. I'd rather frustrate a customer and have them drop the bike off after the race that to break the news an hour before the race that it isn't done.

Customers can help expedite repairs by having a realistic expectation of repairs. This includes a knowledge and history with a shop. If you know, based on experience that a shop carries a limited number of parts (and there isn't another shop available that you trust) don' t walk in two days before the race and expect your bike to be fixed, especially if you need to order parts.

My advice is to call ahead and speak directly to the mechanic. Plead your case. If he has any service menatlity about him, and if its at all possible, he'll move you forward. Just don't get pissed if he explains it just can't be done. At least he's being honest.

As for shops that refuse appointments...
We take appointments all the time. We even allow each tech to schedule repairs for "their" customers. We work this into daily repair order and it causes no problems. Our average turnaround time is 24 hours. We are open 7 days a week. M-Sat until 9:00 pm. We are open on Sunday 12-6. If we get swamped with repairs over the weekend, barring special cases and orders, you have your bike back by Wednesday. (Warranties are an exception, but out of our hands. You'll need to yell at the manufactuer on this one.) This should be done in every shop. This is a perfect example of an operational practice that customers can push the issue on with shop owners. In this case speak to the service manager or owner directly. Argue (professionally and politely) with him. Techs that don't take appointments (IMHO) are afraid to commit. It might cut into their personal ride time. Convince the owner it will increase his service business and money, decrease turnaround thereby increasing customer satisfaction, he'll do it!

 

[hans2]

Before I came to school, my LBS was a mom & pop shop. I was probably their main customer, and even though they dealt with mostly lower end stuff, I'd order all my higher parts & wait. I bought my bike elsewhere, cuz its not like he could just order one bike. When they went out of business, I think they gave my folks some tools & such, and they invited my father over for dinner. I was away at uni. That's a real bond.

I've been shopping at my LBS at school for a few years, but I'm still an outsider. Bah. I'm on my 9th month of not finding a job, and just made my first mail order in a few years because I could get them at half price.

 

[Flyin' Polack]

Here we go again...
I taco'ed my front rim.
None of the shops around me got sh*t.
"We could order one."
So can I!
Now I gotta order it & wait.
again...

 

[Motionboy2]

Originally posted by seanaza
Here we go again...
I taco'ed my front rim.
None of the shops around me got sh*t.
"We could order one."
So can I!
Now I gotta order it & wait.
again...

Small Shops don't have the budget to keep everything in stock...Unfortunatly. It would be cool if they did but there are so many parts and pieces out there that if they did venture to buy a lot, most likly the people that come in would want some random part that the shop doesn't have in stock.

When i was buyer i rode as much as possible with my customers and if they mentioned that they were thinking about some new tires and those Gazzi 2.6's look cool. Guess what showed up in the shop in a week, just before their old tires wore out. Impulse drives people to spend and it is the shops responcability to listen to the customers. Ride with them, and care what they think and what they want/need.

 

[TickTock]

Great thread.

Sometimes, I think its good to buys tuff at the lbs. Small stuff that they get good price margin on like tubes, lil screws and parts etc, but theres this big shop, and i mean BIG two floors type shop near me. I was having a wheelset built. Chris King iso disc hubs laced to mavic 317's and i wanted certain spokes, nipples, the whole jazz. I call them and get a price quote for the cost. 670$. Give me a friggin break. I waited an extra week and got em from jenson for a little over 450$ built and shipped. Now say what you want about "yadda yadda, they will back up the wheel and its better built etc" but for 220 dollars less, I will deal with having to re-tension and true my own wheels. How much time did it take for me to learn how to do it myself? maybe a half hour with a good book and a buddy.

There are times when i am more than happy to pay the extra ten bucks for my lbs if they gave me the info on a part or parts...but sometimes when its hundreds of dollars we are talking about, then its foolish.

I think maybe the change should come from the companies that work with the lbs to try to even out the prices THEY pay. Other times it seems the shop is trying to get an equal price margin on expensive stuff as it is on cheap stuff.

Its nice though, if i walk into my shop with a frame in one hand and a headset in the other, they will just take it, press it and i can hand em five or ten bucks and thats that. A more snobby elitist place near me charges 65$ to press a headset "in case it has to be reamed and faced" but I have watched them just press the set right in wihout doing either. Thats absurd. For ten bucks ill let em do it, otherwise i am getting the rubber mallet and a block of wood out and doing it the old fashioned way.

Wrenching on bikes has never been that hard for me, I think if peple got to know their bikes and learned how to true wheels, adjust brakes, fix their drivetrain etc, they'd save a lot of money on repairs. Theres very few things that the average guy cant do with a minimum of tools. Sure when you really screw something up you take it to the lbs and see what they think, but some people take their bike to the lbs to fix a flat.

 

[Merwin5_10]

One more point to throw into the mix...

MAny vendors have price agreements with their retailers. These are terms of their contracts stating they will honor full retail margin on CERTAIN items (mostly High ticket items, like built bikes, frame sets, forks, etc.) If a retailer is found not honoring these agreements, they risk loosing that line.

Now, two things on this.

1. I am not personally aware of any such agreements between Manufacturers and wholesalers, OEM distrubutors or other "middlemen." This means they have full control over their pricing without jeapardizing their ability to sell the line.

2. CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THIS IS NOT PRICE FIXING! Last time I checked, price fixing/price gouging was illegal in the U.S. It would seem to me that certain companies have found a loophole in trade law allowing them to perserve the "Book" value of their product.

 

[TickTock]

I dunno but the prices are all way off. Crank brothers just offered to let my club buy eggbeaters from them at 35 bucks a pop. I guess they want their pedals all over the races for PR.

On the same note, not I heard web retail places are not "allowed" to list eggbeaters for under 99$. I should buy 50 pairs at 35 dollars each and make some money on ebay! LOL

 

[Merwin5_10]

Yoy could do it.

I'll hate you for it, but you'd make a mint.

 

[Motionboy2]

Originally posted by Merwin5_10
2. CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THIS IS NOT PRICE FIXING! Last time I checked, price fixing/price gouging was illegal in the U.S. It would seem to me that certain companies have found a loophole in trade law allowing them to perserve the "Book" value of their product.

The companies that "fix" their prices, do it desretely. They say that you should maintain this particular price so that it will keep the value of the product. Now how do they get around it? THey don't really cut you off or anything they just make your shop less and less of a priority. Eventually orders will get missed. Your warranties will take FOREVER and your overall relationship with the company will suffer. You can get around all this if you play the right game, but your warranty service will suffer as well as the ability to get things in a timely fashion. (in otherwords you need to order a LOT and not always from the manufacturer, sometimes overseas is better)

 

[splat]

Then you wonder why we sometime Just have to Go Mail Order!

Today , went into a local bike shop, told him I need a 135 MM rear wheel skewr. Looked at me an said " Huh ?, For what ? " I told him and 8 Speed hub. he responded , "they don't make an 8 speed hub! " I turned and looked at the nearby Mt bikes and there on a full suspention I was able to show him one! His response "son of a gun when did they start doing that! " Gave me the warm and fuzzies about dealing with him.

 

[Merwin5_10]

Ok, that is rediculous! But that's what I'm talking about. That shp should either get rid of that employee (hopefully you'll contact the manager/owner and let him know about your experience) or close.

Sorry, to hear about that.

 

[splat]

That was The owner!

 

[Merwin5_10]

Good God! How's he staying in business? Maybe you should drop him an annonymous e-mail telling him he'd do better if he'd stop selling bikes and parts and started selling used underwear.

 

[Merwin5_10]

here

 

[ftwfred]

so it took me awhile to wade thru this entire thread, and then a little while longer for my emotions to come off high simmer...

i think all points expressed here have been valid, and the debate will continue to rage regardless. i am speaking from the viewpoint of the lbs owner - my shop is in asheville, nc. we have at six bike shops in a town of under 100,000, so competition is fierce, and mine is one of the smaller 3.

i employ 1 person now, 2 in the summertime. i pay them both more than i salary myself. i drive a 1989 taurus SHO which i just picked up in a barter deal w/ a customer who m/o'ed his frame, then needed an ultegra kit and a quality build. so the argument of the apathetic, money-grubbing shop owner doesn't wash with me. i struggle to pay my mortgage, but owning's cheaper than renting in the long run.

my employee gets paid to lead shop rides twice a week. people who work in shops, in my experience, do so not for love nor professionalism - they do so to get cheap bike parts. i always did. if i gave a rats ass about moving up in the world, i would go where the money is and become a frigging real estate agent or securities broker. i ride bikes because i love riding bikes - all kinda bikes. i own a shop because i love working on bikes and i love bike people, who are without exception strange and hard to love sometimes. the old joke about how do you become a millionaire in the bike biz - "start with 2 million" comes to mind.

overhead was mentioned, which some of y'all don't seem to understand. "liability" is not per Webster's, it is accountant-speak for something i must spend money on. businesses have two monetary components: assets - stuff i have and can be paid for, and liabilities - stuff i must pay for. payroll is a liability. if you have the immediate thought that you are looked down upon because the term for payroll expenses is "liability," then you need some self-esteem counseling. did you even know that for every dollar you pay uncle sam in taxes, the business must match it? did you even know that monthly the business must also pay both state and federal unemployment tax on every worker, JUST IN CASE you end up unemployed? i must also pay city/county/state priviledge taxes to even open my doors, not to mention liability insurance, business telephone service, the lights/heat/water bill? all these LIABILITIES are what take away the measly 30% gross profit that i try to average by selling stuff at retail.

my business made a NET profit last year of about 1.5 percent, and i was STOKED. my gross sales were around $400,000, so that ends up being...a whopping $6000!!! brand new SUV indeed! beverly hills here i f**king come! for a year's worth of 50+ hour weeks, installing m/o forks on the spot for the ungrateful masses.

i guess i'm just disheartened by the sentiment. if it weren't for the ibd, most of you slobs wouldn't even have been introduced to cycling. you would still be dues-paying members of bally's, enjoying the health-club atmosphere with your fake tans and diet coke addictions.

except now you've found a sport where you can take pride in your physical fitness and joy in the release of endorphins that comes from cleaning that gnarly climb or winning that sprint, but somehow its ok to turn your back on the folks that got you started in favor of the "best deal." i've become convinced there's no such thing as loyalty in this world. i mean look at how quickly GW turned on Osama bin Laden when the **** hit the fan. loyalty has been replaced by greed. drive up in your brand new Tahoe, haul your m/o Ellsworth out of the back and ask me if i can warranty your pos hayes brakes with a lever out of stock on a friday afternoon because you just gotta ride tomorrow.

-and i do it, because i want to win you over as a customer.
-and then i never see you - until the next time you need a favor.

just for the record, i do stock hayes brake line, i can build a wheel while you wait, out of a mavic 321 or x317 or WTB dual duty, even have spokes on hand to get you that 24" rear wheel TODAY, or if you like, you can pick up the new set of atomic aircorps. i also have pads for your hopes, tubeless tires, and spare 8" rotors. manitou shermans, azonic and yeti framesets, maxxis dh tires, eggbeater pedals (but not for $35), even the new time "z"s.

yesterday, guy i've never seen comes in wanting to special order a 2003 z.1 eta, so i say "sure, let me look up the price on that..." but before i even can get my hand on the price list, he asks, "can you come off of retail any...?"

-i must confess, i took the 100% of nothing on that no-sale.

jackass. don't come in asking me to special order a current-year fork for you, then ask me to swing a deal just 'cause you deign (yeah?- LOOK IT UP) to bless me with your POTENTIAL business. you call ME a cock? what about your own arrogance? i'll get this fork for you in THREE days, then install it properly, facing your headtube and making sure your brakes are properly set-up so you don't die or suffer premature m/o chris king headset failure, for NO EXTRA CHARGE, and you want me to cut you a deal right of the bat because you're GIVING ME THE CHANCE TO MAKE A SALE?!?!? F**K YOU!!!

folks, it's just like anything else. if you take the time to build a relationship with me and treat me with the smallest measure of respect, then i will do likewise for you. my best customers get 15% off retail without asking and occasional freebies, as well as the very rare chance to score a deep discount on something i can pro-deal without overstepping my own moral code. these people value their relationship with me, because i treat them well, and will take the time to fix their bikes and their screw-ups, while showing them how to do it right the next time. they keep coming back, because i know the value of a good customer, and i will treat them well.

if i compromise my own needs to meet yours, then the next time i see you, we both feel uncomfortable - you because you know you "owe" me an unknown something, and me because i feel i'm obligated to compromise again. it leads to the deterioration of our relationship, and then we both lose out. you because you feel undeserving of personal, caring service, me because i need that 30% of your money to pay my rent and be here for you the next time you NEED something so you can ride RIGHT NOW.

</rant>:angry:

 

[Motionboy2]

Wow! I would have to say I would probably be pretty pissed too if i were in your shoes. I have in the past been in the lbs situation and i have dealt with similar situations. It was always a pain when people would try to make me come down on prices, because they would quote prices that were my cost! I think there are some shops out there that give a bad rap to others. However for the most part shops are trying to stay alive. You need to make 34 or 36% in order to keep a shop alive and with the margins that the industry gives you it is hard to get near that! It always boggles me when i think of the margins on Ski and Snowboard stuff vs Bike stuff. You can't even compare.
When I ran an LBS I priced everything as low as I could and there were NO DEALS. Bike sales got a water bottle and cage and regulars would get deals on some stuff, but that is all.

 

[D_D]

Most of the bike shops near me need to catch up with the rest of the shops.
Bike shops are about the only ones left that have a little on display and a lot hidden away that you have to ask for.
This doesn't work for anybody except the people who need advice. I went in for a crank puller and they are behind the counter so it takes me 5 mins just to buy it and there are only 2 other people in the shop.

Swap the shop around put the cash register near the door so you can stop thieving and put nearly everything else on display so the customer can see it. You could use glass cases for expensive/delicate stuff.

If they don't start to catch up the only bike shops are going to be in halfords where they may have poor stock and bad prices but at least they don't run the shop like a 1950's corner shop.

If they don't make any money on bikes why do they fill 95% of the floor space with bikes and hide the profitable stuff away?

 

[Motionboy2]

Originally posted by D_D
If they don't make any money on bikes why do they fill 95% of the floor space with bikes and hide the profitable stuff away?

Ohh You make a good point...but unfortunatly there isn't much mark up on that stuff either. But in reality it would be great to have all of or as much of the tools and small parts on display. Everything that the customer can see makes it more likley for them to buy.

 

[MojoJojo]

I spend an equal amount in both areas annually. I recieved my yearend statement from my cc comp and realized that I spent twice the amount in my LBS as opposed to mail order with little return in investment. We all know that there is a 40 to 60 percent markup on merchandise in the LBS and that's business. I don't mean I'm obligated to spend my money there.

 

[roel_koel]

sorry kinda of late to this debate..

here in London, England we don't have a huge number of places to ride off-road, we have trails in hampstead Heath, Epping Forest, Harrow, etc. and a new dirt jump park being built in Mile End (East London)

what this all means, is that despite there being quite alot of hardcore DH and jumpers in London, the shop cater 99% for commuting and hybrid "comfort bikes" markets...not hardcore riders. some of the shops have limited number of downhill and jump parts but 4/5ths of them don't have the parts.

there is a huge debate raging about this in the UK at the moment as our mail order companies are doing lots of damage to LBS - a LBS called "Dirt and Dreams" recently went bust here in London with loss of 2 stores.

BUT, with the cr_ppy service and high prices, and lack of suitable parts, do I have any alternative but to go mail-order? My favourite shop for hardcore parts is Wades Cycles, they specialise in this stuff and you can see their adverts in Dirt magazine. they never fail to help out, sometimes even taking parts like mech hangers off display bikes to help out a buddy who is racing.

My LBS have nothing but excuses and lies whenever I want to spend my $$$..don't they want my money? Last time - a mech hanger for my Big Hit frame, 2 weeks of waiting around for them to ship it between their various stores, then it got lost, then it wasn't the right one, etc. etc.

or times when I have bought parts like a 3-piece cromoly jump crank and the bolts and bearing lockring were missing, the box was open and I was told the parts had been used by staff and not replaced. and then I buy a Shimano XT disc brake and there are parts missing from the box.

I raced on Sunday, the QR20PRO axle plate on my 2003 Super T fork fell off during the drive home. I called Wades on Monday, they got his $15 part and it was here at my home by today (thursday). If I had gone through my LBS I would have waited a week as they only order 1 day per week, then the usual 2-3 weeks delay for the part to come in, they never ring either so I would have to call every day...with cr_ppy service like this, it's no wonder I go to Wades.

I don't really care about servicing..I just need somewhere to get my parts without waiting 2-3 weeks (thats lots riding time) and being charged 20% more than retail prices because its a London store.

"Take the power back I say! Learn to work on your own rig. It is both economical, rewarding, and safer"

this guy has it right, I have spent $300 on tools and have saved so much money this year, the only work I can't do is my rear shock (Fox Vanilla) but I can fix my Super T forks, bleed my discs, do everything else, and I help fix my buddies bikes - my buddy went to my LBS last year and they charged $450 to service his DH bike, they totally killed that bike, the brakes weren't bled right, the forks started leaking, the weirdest thing they didn't have the right chaindisc so their mechanic got out an angle grinder and ground down the teeth on a bmx chaindisc to fit the thinner mtb chain..the 1st time he used it the teeth snapped off.

he ended up involving trading standards officers and got most of his $$$ back..with problems like this we ignore our LBS and go mail-order..or get on the train for 2 hours and go to Wades cycles.

 

[erastusboy]

I used to hate the LBS were I am from, but now i try to make it in there at least once a week. They dont really have that much (or any) good stuff for me to look at but the people are really funny and know the answer to any ?'s i give then (plus hook me up/let me look through the used parts bin). Also 2 or 3 of my friends work there and since the managers know me they let me chill with my friends...anyway the point is that what bike shops need is not the latest and greatest crap but people who can help you out and are cool enough to sit around and talk about something other than bikes. So maybe i dont have any money to spend what i do come up with i usually spend there.

By the way i was told by the manager that when they hook me up with wholesale and such they actually lose money so they dont care were my parts come from. i dont know if that is true everywhere but thats what they tell me

 

[monkeywench]

Time for some praise for my local LBS. Cyclesmith has been around since the mid '80's:
The staff is comprised of cyclists who participate in all aspects of the sport: MTB (XC and DH), road, touring,triathlon.
They organize hugely successful events: 8 Hours of Gore, MTB and road races.
Club Cyclesmith holds thrice weekly rides for riders of all abilities.
99% of the staff commute by bicycle all year round (if you've seen Hfx. in winter, that's an admirable fact).
The staff are extremely knowlegeable, passionate and the turnover is very low. Many of the staff members are now in their 30's (have formal education), and still work there because they want to.
Four of their senior mechanics took specialized training at Barnett's and UBI. A fifth will be going to Barnett's later this year.
The staff are well paid compared to other shops and receive profit sharing.
I could go on.
Like any shop they are not perfect but their longevity, customer loyalty, and ability to survive in a market as difficult as Maritime Canada speaks volumes.
Just wanted to let you monkeys know about a good LBS if you're ever up this way.

p.s. I do not now, nor have I ever worked for Cyclesmith