a new, dh only! association. DBAA lets hear some ideas

trailhacker · Sep 4, 2004

We put on four races last year and I remember a few guys telling us that we should be paying out %100 to the pros. I thought about it for a second and said "ok, you all need to give me back 1/2 of your prize money?"
Also, when we race down at Mt. Hood (Ski Bowl) they pay out to the fastest riders and although I think thats cool from a non-pro perspective, whats the motivation to be a pro if anybody gets paid? As a pro, you've earned a right to be a pro and to get paid accordingly. If your not a pro but would have won $ if you were then its time to put in for your upgrade.
The payout thing would work if you could get over 150 participants or more, or the promoter makes nothing. If the promoter makes nothing, who puts on the races?
On that note, with over 500 participants at any given national, and they can't throw down at least a few hundred $ to the winners.......

Heath Sherratt · Sep 4, 2004

More specific age groups, outside sponsors for bigger purses, media, television access on local stations, plan for a year ahead and give diagrams of courses and details for races.

downhillzeypher · Sep 4, 2004

How 'bout more flexible age groups? Like say there is a crappy/huge turnout so the age group will get resized appropriately.

dhtahoe · Sep 4, 2004

Morgan you are on to something here. How do we get UCI to recognize this??? 2 west coast races, 2 in Colorado, and 2 on the east coast. Alternate the finals between the three areas each year. Also have an east/west shootout like they do in moto. Low pit prices. A pit area for the major teams, another for the privateer teams and riders. Pro entry would be higher ($20-$30) that becomes the pro purse(all of it). The more pro's the higher the purse. If you got 64 pro's that's about $1300-2000 for a pro purse. That's $1300-2000 more than it is now. Basicly we pay for our own purse, and then other sponsor money goes into the AM progarm. I think everyone would make out this way. This is how I did my local series in Tahoe, and everyone loved it. Let the XC guys write their own ticket so we're not fighting over who gets money. We can stick to ski resort venues and the XC guys can do more in urban areas.

MMike · Sep 4, 2004

You guys are hilarious...

dhtahoe · Sep 4, 2004

MMike said:
You guys are hilarious...

NO were serious. If your cool with the way things are run then keep going to those NORBA races. By the way do you even race Nationals??? Don't derail this thread. If you have no input find a different thread.

neversummersnow · Sep 4, 2004

I like this...I relate it to how skateboarding had the same thing happen mid-nintees. Their sanctioning bodies sucked, so the riders took matters into their own hands...now look where its at!

bizutch · Sep 4, 2004

Heard of MADHRA. It started out as a way to organize all the DH/DS people in our area to show unity b/c resorts weren't interested in having races for us. It gave everybody a voice, a point series exclusive to members with good ending prizes, members organized trail days to build, mark and tear down courses. Last year we had 110 DH riders at Wolf...that's unheard of in the Southeast Appalachian Mountains.

The only problem was organizing the officers at the core to provide all the services of the club when it got HUGE instantly. I stood alone with my SEI teammates, a couple bros from Ridemonkey and one or two others. It was hard to organize. Our biggest problen was that we got big fast. Instead of being a 15-20 person club that expanded over a gradual period of time...we got too big in no time. It's fizzled since my daughter was born and she has swallowed my spare time.

What I'm trying to say is that what you propose is VERY doable...but if you wanna go National, try local and then regional. It might take you a few years, but it is totally accomplishable....just pace yourself I guess. :thumb:

neversummersnow · Sep 4, 2004

Look, if we start to really get serious and want to try this out, I'm willing to volunteer more than a little bit of my time...

Alex, lets talk.

Transcend · Sep 4, 2004

neversummersnow said:
Look, if we start to really get serious and want to try this out, I'm willing to volunteer more than a little bit of my time...

Alex, lets talk.

count me in. :thumb:

MMike · Sep 5, 2004

I have raced one (1) NORBA national ever. Crystal in 2000. It was my first race ever.

And I think you should fight for DH sovereignty. Maybe you could hold a referendum? I know the perfect leader for your cause. Email him at JParizeau@partiquebecois.qc.ca

He loves this kind of stuff....

(derailing over)

Pip3r · Sep 5, 2004

Just look at the US Open, theyve already got their **** together and have only done it twice!

heikkihall · Sep 5, 2004

bcd said:
i could do 1 in angel fire or los alamos. who do we have out west for liek north* or other? who is back east who has some control? bizitch?

I could probably get a race going in Lake Placid (Whiteface )

neversummersnow · Sep 5, 2004

Alex,

I think first thing that needs to be figured out is how much it costs to promote an event.

IE
Logistics (insurance, mountain fees, etc)
THEN
We can decide for a direction...I'll post more later, right now I need to go get some sleep for tommorows MSC race...haha

2young2ride · Sep 5, 2004

Glad to see this thread, after driving most of the summer with my son to NORBA nationals I came to the same idea after Durango. NORBA is ripe to be demolished by a new sanctioning association.

The prime thing is to remember your existing promoters. There seems to be several well established promoters around the country right now. I would recommend getting a draft rules book together and send it to several of them and see if they would be interested. If you don't have promoters you don't have a sanctioning association.

I have quite a few comments and would be happy to help out any way I can. I have experience in both the BMX associations and was shocked at the flacid way NORBA manages its racing. Many of my comments are based on my BMX experience in volunteering at tracks and I think it is good to base any new sanctioning agency on a functioning model.

Classes:

I think classes should be broken into two main groups: amateur and professional. Amatuer classes would include the existing beginner, sport (intermediate), and expert classes. Pro classes would include the existing semi-pro and pro classes.

I disagree on you payout method because I know most promoters would reject it. Remember promoters are doing this for money and they don't want a sanctioning agency cutting too deep into their profits. With this in mind, I agree that the pro class should have a 100% payout. Semi-Pro class should have 50% payout. All amateur classes have no payout. Honestly, if you are in mtn biking to make money, you should be racing in a professional category. I do think that the age limit for professional classes should be lowered to 15/16 years old. I've seen 15/16 year olds tear up the BMX pro classes and their is no reason they can't in mtn biking.

As for the age classes, I think 19 and over should be broken into 5 year groups until 35-40, then into 10 year groups. As for the 18 and under, these should be broken into 2 or 4 year age groups. For all age classes there should be a minimum number of riders to form a class (say 6-8), otherwise they will be merged into another age group to form a class.

Though I saw one of you later posts refers to a semi-pro/pro event only, I think those are fine, but remember where your money is. It is primarily in the 18 and under classes. These classes have far more access to cash than any other class. NORBA is very unfriendly to younger classes. Honestly, anyone under the age of 15 is pretty much screwed. I know this because my son just turned 13. The one benefit he has is that his 5 years of BMX experience has given him enough skill to overcome physical deficiencies competing against riders older than him. Remember you want to bring riders into the sport and retain them. Why would any parent want to deal with their 10 year old child who just got their ass handed to them racing against a 17 year old?

To give you an idea of the number of riders potentially out there. The last BMX national my son competed in was in Reno, NV. His class of 11 year old experts had 47 riders. The entire event had 382 motos with over 4000 riders. At Durango, he had 6 riders in Jr Sport 18 and under in MX. Mtn biking is the fastest growing bicycling sport. Why is it not reflected in the numbers of riders? NORBA does not promote riding in the younger classes.

Points and Advancement:

One of the best things from BMX is the state/district, regional, and national rankings. This should be done for all classes. In addition, you number plate denotes your previous years ranking. This is important for the amateur classes. It is something to work towards during the season. A rider ranked #2 in the state would ride with a #2 plate the following season. There would be a #1 plate for regional champions, and the top 10-20 rider would be ranked nationally. In the ABA, the standard plate is white with black numbers. This would be the state plate, regional plates are red with white numbers. National plates are black with white numbers. It is a quick way to assess your competition also.

I think advancement should be similar to the existing method. Based on the number of finishes. If you were to go to an end of season method, you would need to have rankings based on a state or regional classification. You would also need to determine a percentage rather than a set number. This will reflect rider count variations between states or regions.

Other Items:

Marketing/PR: NORBA does a sh*tty job of marketing. You need to marketing not only to get sponsors, but also to get word out about races.

Magazine: One of the biggest things missing in NORBA is a monthly magazine. This provides race coverage, rider ranking, tech tips, etc. This is a critical item. Actually, I've been thinking of doing a e-zine just for the Mtn States Cup next year. This is an additional place for national sponsors to place advertisements in addition to other advertising. The advertising covers the cost of printing and shipping and usually makes a profit. People like to see their name in print and hope to see a picture of them in the magazine. This is the main benefit to a membership in a sanctioning association.

Software: Both ABA and NBL provide a computer program to assist in the registration and running of races. NORBA does not provide such a program. This makes a promoters life so much easier. I plan on writing such a program for mtn biking over the winter. I would prefer not to write it for NORBA. If you are serious I will write the program for the DBAA.

I am willing to help out anyway I can with helping form a competing sanctioning agency. But if you are serious, we need to get on this now. The main thing is to get at least a draft rulebook put together and out to promoters and see if they will go for it.

-Tom
Minnie Mac's Dad

BMXman · Sep 6, 2004

now that was a quality post :thumb:

DHCorky · Sep 6, 2004

I have have to agree with everything 2young2ride said. If we can bring younger racers into the sport it will instantly make the sport grow. Right now DH seems to be for people 16 and over. How many current DH racers have kids that are approaching the age they can handle a bike offroad? Instead of heading to the BMX track with jr. they could go and ride DH together. Granted for the younger kids we might have to make a different course but it will bring in more people. It would be a course that could be ridden on 20" or 24" wheeled bikes.

The number plate idea is great! I do not understand why this has not been used in mountain bikes. For some reason we have always poked fun at people that leave number plates on there bikes. If the number plate means something some people will leave them on there bikes. All this is going to do is cause people to ask questions about the number plate. This is free advertising for the race series.

I think a new santioning body is more than over due for DH. We just need to take time and think everything through. It will not take much to push NORBA aside, as long as things are done right.

jhusktrials · Sep 6, 2004

This all sounds really good you guys. All I have to say is be prepared to commit yourself to this rather than riding. I know it sounds crazy... but myself and 9 riders in Colorado tried to start an association for DH. Well, 6 quit within a month and another 2 gave up after a little while longer. All that was left was myself and 1 other person. Needless to say it no longer exists.

Good luck, you guys. I really would like to see this work for you all. I just want to warn you, it will be hard.

J

Pip3r · Sep 6, 2004

doesnt norba own the right to have their series be the official 'national series' and qualify people for world cup events?
What about getting a group of organized people to approach the ABA or NBL about doing a series, i know there has been some talk of how cool that would be.

UiUiUiUi · Sep 6, 2004

ok i am not living in the us and all this is just my opinion...

try to keep the events together for pros and non pros.
you will have more people at a single event which means more paying customers.
try to have all classes race one course and build in (maybe mandatory) detours around the really difficult sections for the the "lower skill" classes.

that way you only need one track for all people.

jhusktrials · Sep 6, 2004

One more thing, I know this sounds funny but DBAA is kind of hard to say. If your name has to be pronunced letter by letter it should only be three letters (UCI, ABA, NBL). Anymore than three letters you should make it a word like NORBA, or nbr FAFSA, and MADD. It would make you appear more proffesional. Names like NSMBA work, but write a paragraph with DBAA in it six times and see how much it slows the flow of your reading.

Just my two cents.

Also, what 2young2ride said is great. We should promote this sport to the children. I was a BMX'r and most 20" riders despise 26". There is a lot of talent in BMX, that is obvious considering all of the dominant mtn-x riders who raced BMX. Plus if kids are racing 26" when they are younger they will get in to 26" urban and street rather than 20". Than a 26" street comp will not be like watching 20" amateur hour at the local skatepark.

bibs · Sep 6, 2004

you are on to some thing, I would love to see dh races have points like BMX...you earn your way up, they do it that way in BC. If I can help let me know. :thumb:

mountaingoat · Sep 6, 2004

We here at RCFP are in.. We only do DH racing here.. www.roughriderracing.org .. I would by into that.. I promote some racing here and I am willing to help as well.. We have some awesome trails.. If we do get something going I am sure there would be alot o people buy into that.. I think Exp and pro should get paid or get swag .. I spend lotsa money at NORBA races and all you get is a medal or plaque.. Thats crap.. People should get shwag or money , period.. Might try and get a slalom or mtn-x series o races goin as well.. Slalom would be easier for now, to get some courses goin.. It dont take much for a dual course.. We are in.. I am sure Cloud and Los Alamos might be in as well. . Who knows.. :evil:
Howz bout DRAC , Downhill Racing Assoc. Circuit .. Whatever it be I will be there.. Let me know.. :evil: I think we should do Beg., Sport , Expert. and do something seperate for semi/pro and pro riders.. It will give people the chance to ride w/ hard riders and learn to ride better by watching.. peace

jamie

2young2ride · Sep 6, 2004

bcd said:
i see where you are coming from. your sons from bmx where it rider ages are 180 from dh. most are under 20 most in dh are over 20. i can't the see jrs dh being as big in dh as BMX. the track locations and availibility troughout the year if 1/2 of BMX. not being pesimistic just realistic.

From what I've seen in the Mtn States Cup series and NORBA nationals, the Junior classes are a significant portion of the riders, about a third. Yes, many of the classes are still dominated by the older classes but here is what I've found:

NORBA NCS Sport and Beginner classes under 18
Dual Slalom: Jr Sport had 6-8 riders with an average of 7
Jr Beginner had 16-16 riders with an average 16
Mtn Cross: Jr Sport had 2-31 riders with an average of 7
Jr Beginner had 6-24 with an average of 12
Downhill: Jr Sport had 10-31 riders with an average of 22
Jr Beginner had 18-69 riders with an average of 42

Mtn States Cup Sport and Beginner classes under 18
Mtn Cross: Jr. Sport had 14-16 riders with an average of 15
Jr. Beginner had 12-26 riders with an average of 21
Downhill: Jr. Sport had 22-36 riders with an average of 26
Jr. Beginner had 22-46 riders with an average of 35

A good indicator of the potential is Sea Otter. 222 (non JX) under 18 entries in downhill, 48 in dual slalom, and 52 in mtn cross.

These rider classes are substantial considering NORBA's almost disregard of the under 18 riders. Marketing at these classes ensures the future of the sport. This is not to say to dismiss the older age classes. But you need to keep in mind attrition due to age and injury. I know many of the riders my age are glad the season is over so they can heal over the winter months.

BTW, I think that downhill start times should be based on current rankings. So a rider ranked #1 goes first, a rider ranked #22 goes well after the faster rider. Less passing. No need for qualifying.

-Tom

mountaingoat · Sep 6, 2004

I think it would have to start by doing this region and see what kind o response is made.. It is growing.. We need cheeper racing.. The promoter needs to get paid as well .. It is hard promoting a race .. We hope to start the series around here in the southwest mountain areas, and then go bigger.. We have some o the best courses anywhere.. :evil:

T-Pirate · Sep 6, 2004

NADA

North American Downhill Association

You guys have the right idea.

Bicyclist · Sep 6, 2004

I agree with the start time idea, especially in the Jr. classes. In the Jr. classes I race in, there are often 1:00 gaps between times. Cutting down on passing would make racing way less intimidating, too. More younger riders would be inclined to try it.

It's time that there is another sanctioning body other than NORBA. The way they organize races isn't very well-thought out, and there is a huge room for improvement.

mgy · Sep 7, 2004

You guys are definitely on to something here. NORBA totally screws the non pro racers. The expert class has no basis for the start order and there are two minute time differences from 1st to last. A points system (done like ski racing, not total points, which rewards the kids that go to every race known to man but an average of 3 best finishes with some weighting or handicap system based on the quality of racers) for up grading and start order would really help.

Tom, the ezine is a great idea people love to see there name in print (or on the web) and to be rewarded for there hard work. It would also be the perfect place to advertise for coaches, race promoters and anyone whose target market is mtb racers.

Has anyone talked to Eric Jean or any other promoters about this. I think one of the main reasons they stick with Norba is cheap insurance. Why haven't many promoters gone away from Norba? I think the Wisconsin series and the Utah XC series are not Norba. Why don't one of you contact them about what they are doing and what they feel the benefit of not going with Norba is.

mgy · Sep 7, 2004

Utah series info http://www.intermountaincup.com/ Wisconsin series info http://www.wors.org/home.php , includes payout program

buildyourown · Sep 7, 2004

I'd love to see this take-off and dethrone NORBA. However, I think the age groups should be reconsidered. In expert class, 30-39 isn't any slower than 19-29. Why not throw them all together? Make the cut-off at 40.

Juniors
19-39
40 and up.

Cash for pros only. Paying out to the experts isn't viable for small race promoters.

a new, dh only! association. DBAA lets hear some ideas

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I LOVE NORBA!!!!

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I wish I was Canadian

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RESPECT!

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