[bizutch]

I'd love to see this take-off and dethrone NORBA. However, I think the age groups should be reconsidered. In expert class, 30-39 isn't any slower than 19-29. Why not throw them all together? Make the cut-off at 40.


Juniors
19-39
40 and up.

Cash for pros only. Paying out to the experts isn't viable for small race promoters.

that's right...wanna get paid to race...get your semi-pro/pro license....otherwise, get a trophy or a prize. You are a spoiled, whiny complaining oinker if you race expert and think you deserve cash.

I don't say that because I'm semi-pro, I say it b/c every race I was ever in that I was expert and got paid felt stupid. The only exception is if it is a local race that the 2 classes are combined.

If you want money, you earn it. Too many experts show up and think that 3rd place expert should get paid.

 

[dhtahoe]

Ok how about the GRL (Gravity Racing League) I like Dee ba too. Man I have not seen a post that people seem to agree so much. I think we need to approach ABA. They used to own NORBA and they have done a great job with BMX. I know one of the main dudes there, and I'm calling him today. They have insurance, computer programs, a ranking system that works. They just don't have "A Crew" to do it. I will take on being the promotor for the west. I would have Mammoth and Northstar at Tahoe as the venues. People seemed VERY pleased with my races in the past. Another idea I had for the real young guys is a grom DH. Make the spt/beg course with a mid course start just for the 12 under. With companies like Specialized and Kona making some pretty good full squish 24" bikes these days it would be cool. Make it so only "approved" models of bikes can compete. Then have a stock class for the groms who's parents have a small budget. Then have a modified class that allows for the same "approved" models to be upgraded with better forks, brakes, shocks, etc. The little guys don't need a 5-6 min course. A 2-3 min one would suit them better. Then we contact the bike makers tell them what we are doing and get them to offer a grassroots program thru local shops. Grom DH will be safe, just as fun, and they will all be on evenly matched equipment. Not only would this be good marketing (little sticker on every production bike that says "Grom DH Certified"), but could push the development of Grom DH bikes industry wide. The Big Hit Grom and Stinky Jr. sell for around $1000 (about the same as a good BMX bike maybe a little more).

 

[ÆX]

I'd love to see this take-off and dethrone NORBA. However, I think the age groups should be reconsidered. In expert class, 30-39 isn't any slower than 19-29. Why not throw them all together? Make the cut-off at 40.


Juniors
19-39
40 and up.

Cash for pros only. Paying out to the experts isn't viable for small race promoters.

you are true. they are just as fast.
i was doing the break at 30 more to have a semipro - pro vet class.
there are not many 40+ semi/pro's out there.
there 53 out of 176 semipros that are 30+ at the end points of this years ncs.
in pro there are 32 out of 130, also there is a need in pro too.
they deserve a class.

now JR's that race semi or pro there are 20 out of 300. i was thinking a class for them but now i think not.

semi's deserve pay outs, but not experts. i agree

 

[ÆX]

Ok how about the GRL (Gravity Racing League) I like Dee ba too. Man I have not seen a post that people seem to agree so much. I think we need to approach ABA. They used to own NORBA and they have done a great job with BMX. I know one of the main dudes there, and I'm calling him today. They have insurance, computer programs, a ranking system that works. They just don't have "A Crew" to do it. I will take on being the promotor for the west. I would have Mammoth and Northstar at Tahoe as the venues. People seemed VERY pleased with my races in the past. Another idea I had for the real young guys is a grom DH. Make the spt/beg course with a mid course start just for the 12 under. With companies like Specialized and Kona making some pretty good full squish 24" bikes these days it would be cool. Make it so only "approved" models of bikes can compete. Then have a stock class for the groms who's parents have a small budget. Then have a modified class that allows for the same "approved" models to be upgraded with better forks, brakes, shocks, etc. The little guys don't need a 5-6 min course. A 2-3 min one would suit them better. Then we contact the bike makers tell them what we are doing and get them to offer a grassroots program thru local shops. Grom DH will be safe, just as fun, and they will all be on evenly matched equipment.

i branch of ABA would make this happen a lot faster. you are right.
they have it all set up.

i deffinatly like a approved model for the kids. there own fun short tracks. thye could not have to worry about getting plowed into by the 200+ sport guy.

 

[Motionboy2]

Well, I totally missed this thread. Very good work guys. Here are my only suggestions.

When the actual organization forms it should be formed by members that are fully committed. The first order of business should have NOTHING to do with the new series, but it should have to do with organizing how the organization is run, and how communication is set up throughout the organization.
The only reason I say this is because I feel this is the reason that a local organization fell appart. So basically a set of bi-laws that will keep the organization in check including a defining each positon in the organization to make sure everyone knows what their job is.

Otherwise, It would be cool to have a Pro series like football but cycling needs to build a foundation. Whatever superior organization that arrizes should address that and give a junior program.

 

[dhtahoe]

Alex and I are perfect... Getting older having families, but still want to see out sport grow. Just kidding Alex!!! I know I'm committed 110% to MAKING this happen. I think Alex, Mikey from Spacemonkey, and I have fired the first shot... now we just need to get the industry behind us an the rest is for MBA and Velo News to write about. I just hope NORBA doesn't sue the hell out of us for trying.

 

[Transcend]

Yo Alex and tahoe...

hit me up if you need help with setting up press communications, contacts, PR lists etc

 

[dhtahoe]

Ok you got it... wow this is awesome all the "old-school" boys pulling together to give the rest of the DH world a gift that comes from our heart. Somebody call John Tomac

 

[Transcend]

Ok a few factors i have been thinkign about:

1 - semi pro SHOULD have qualifying, well seeding runs at least. There is a big disparity here between the fastest and slowest and they go in random order..not cool.

2- 1 min intervals between ALL pro riders..not 30 seconds and then 1 minute.

3- Organization...ugh. Basically, try and at least have the course taped a decent amount of time in advance (require it).

4- Have certain course criteria which MUST be met (IE no lame ass WV style course).

5- Schedule the race when it won't be "the rainy season" in that area (see above)

6- Media/team relations...with a new series, I think this will be key. Make sure you offer incentives to get these folks to your race.

 

[profro]

I agree with the Pro/Ametuer split. If your pro (even semi), then you get paid. Otherwise you get a medal or prize, but most importantly points. I like the use of points to move up and to seed runs.

 

[ÆX]

Alex and I are perfect... Getting older having families, but still want to see out sport grow. Just kidding Alex!!! I know I'm committed 110% to MAKING this happen. I think Alex, Mikey from Spacemonkey, and I have fired the first shot... now we just need to get the industry behind us an the rest is for MBA and Velo News to write about. I just hope NORBA doesn't sue the hell out of us for trying.

i have some bandwith and could make a site to start a list of what we are trying to do. then that will give us somthing to spread around VS a thread in ridemonkey.

i am psiked. eversince '91 i have disliked norba. no reason really

dhtahoe, you are? who is mikey?

transend
Ok a few factors i have been thinkign about:

1 - semi pro SHOULD have qualifying, well seeding runs at least. There is a big disparity here between the fastest and slowest and they go in random order..not cool.

if we have a aculitive points system all riders expert and up will run slowest to fastest in order of points. first race could go off of ncs ranking.

2- 1 min intervals between ALL pro riders..not 30 seconds and then 1 minute.

and semi's. we all need mic time from the announcers. and like it

3- Organization...ugh. Basically, try and at least have the course taped a decent amount of time in advance (require it).

yes, done

4- Have certain course criteria which MUST be met (IE no lame ass WV style course).

all tracks should have an average grade of 45 deg. . . . lol this is dh and we all agree we should not have to change or gears to suit a flat track.
big bear too huh? super pedally

5- Schedule the race when it won't be "the rainy season" in that area (see above)

that is somthing that needs to be noted but i think making a series loop for making the travel easyer is the most important!

6- Media/team relations...with a new series, I think this will be key. Make sure you offer incentives to get these folks to your race.:

what kind? we will offer pits for 1/2 the priceish.

the big thing that will take guts but needs to be done imo is when norba gets there dates set, around World cups generally. what do we do then? sceduel on the World cup dates and miss any big factory teams, or make the same dates as the NCS and hit them hard and let the riders chose. if we have tv and norba doesn't we get the big teams.

 

[Motionboy2]

Schedule on NCS dates and make the riders choose, with a payout...you know where they will go. If you have TV BONUS.

I just started research into what kind of money would need to be raised from advertizing to get Network stations to cover an event, I will let you guys know when I have some info for you.

 

[buildyourown]

Cash Payout will bring the big names. Just look at the success of the US Open.

 

[Damn True]

I'd love to see this take-off and dethrone NORBA. However, I think the age groups should be reconsidered. In expert class, 30-39 isn't any slower than 19-29. Why not throw them all together? Make the cut-off at 40.


Juniors
19-39
40 and up.

For the winners in those classes perhaps. However if you look at the guys coming in 15th in the older Ex men classes you will find a huge gap between the expert riders who are still in HS and the expert riders that have kids in HS.

The classes should remain seperate.

 

[Transcend]

i have some bandwith and could make a site to start a list of what we are trying to do. then that will give us somthing to spread around VS a thread in ridemonkey.

i am psiked. eversince '91 i have disliked norba. no reason really

dhtahoe, you are? who is mikey?

transend
Ok a few factors i have been thinkign about:

1 - semi pro SHOULD have qualifying, well seeding runs at least. There is a big disparity here between the fastest and slowest and they go in random order..not cool.

if we have a aculitive points system all riders expert and up will run slowest to fastest in order of points. first race could go off of ncs ranking.

2- 1 min intervals between ALL pro riders..not 30 seconds and then 1 minute.

and semi's. we all need mic time from the announcers. and like it

3- Organization...ugh. Basically, try and at least have the course taped a decent amount of time in advance (require it).

yes, done

4- Have certain course criteria which MUST be met (IE no lame ass WV style course).

all tracks should have an average grade of 45 deg. . . . lol this is dh and we all agree we should not have to change or gears to suit a flat track.
big bear too huh? super pedally

5- Schedule the race when it won't be "the rainy season" in that area (see above)

that is somthing that needs to be noted but i think making a series loop for making the travel easyer is the most important!

6- Media/team relations...with a new series, I think this will be key. Make sure you offer incentives to get these folks to your race.:

what kind? we will offer pits for 1/2 the priceish.

the big thing that will take guts but needs to be done imo is when norba gets there dates set, around World cups generally. what do we do then? sceduel on the World cup dates and miss any big factory teams, or make the same dates as the NCS and hit them hard and let the riders chose. if we have tv and norba doesn't we get the big teams.

alex, I have a TON of unused bandwidth at Transcend, things could easily be hosted there if needed.

 

[dhtahoe]

Cash Payout will bring the big names. Just look at the success of the US Open.

That's why I love it when NORBA give us the "you don't know what it takes" excuse. I know not being taken is what it takes!!! I'm not here to make myself rich while the sport dies. I KNOW that when road cycling took a dive before "The Lance Armstrong effect" that USA Cycling was pulling money from NORBA to keep USCF going. Now that road is going huge do you think that we will see any money pulled from USCF to help us... I think not!!!

 

[Transcend]

alex and tahoe...both of you hit me up on aim or something ASAP

fraser82

 

[Transcend]

after some quick uh..market research, team managers from the major teams would tend to agree that 2 outta 3 aint bad, and it woudl win them over in a heartbeat.

Those 3 being: TV, Cash, Course.

If 2 out of 3 of those is great, you have a race they woudl attend over an NCS anyday.

 

[dhtahoe]

3 stage Pit area prices:
(not real numbers just an example)

Gold area: Large "Team" trucks. $200 per 10x10. Tech service and product sales allowed. Average cost for the huge trucks @ 20x40= $1600

Silver area: "product" vendors. $150 per 10x10. Tech service and product sales allowed. Average cost to vendors with smaller trucks @20x20=$600

Bronze area: Small "privateer" area: $100 per 10x10. ONLY team issue softgoods sales permitted(t-shirts,hats,etc.) Average cost for small privateeer teams @10x10=$100.

ANY TEAM can trade for prizes or money used toward Pro/AM purse/prizes.

 

[Transcend]

an NCS pit costs a ton.

Example - 1 team truck needs 135' x 20' . This costs $3000usd at an NCS. Do the math from there.

I like the idea of doing the different levels of pit access. I do however STRONGLY believe, that privateer team pits should be 100% free. After jersey costs, most of these guys cannot afford any other sorts of bills, and get relegated to the damn parking lot.

 

[Motionboy2]

What do you think the possiblility is that one or some of the larger event promotors in one of the regions would like to take the next step. I don't know about the experience of any of the people on this forum, but if this organization communicated directly with the larger event promoters I am sure they would have a lot of information and experience to share.
You may find that one of the promotors would want to work with the organization.

 

[dhtahoe]

Just like an ABA National. The local promotor would be "hired" to meet certain standards of the association. If they did not they would not be able to bid on another National unless they fixed certain issues. Sea Otter e-mails EVERY rider to feel out what the public thinks. That is one reason I THINK Sea Otter does soooo well every year that passes... they listen!!!

 

[Transcend]

Only the DH venus still sucks., they charge too much for parking, and pit space is astronomically expensive.

+ sides - media relations is TOP NOTCH. Organization is good (besides the practice line issues that need to be addressed, somehow).

 

[Motionboy2]

Just like an ABA National. The local promotor would be "hired" to meet certain standards of the association. If they did not they would not be able to bid on another National unless they fixed certain issues. Sea Otter e-mails EVERY rider to feel out what the public thinks. That is one reason I THINK Sea Otter does soooo well every year that passes... they listen!!!

I realize that in the future that would be the case, but right now as we are pulling all the info together, I can't think of a better person to ask than the person that puts on the events, deals with Norba and hears the rider complaints and compliments face to face.

Taking the best part of every race, putting it all together and making one perfect series would be awesome.
It would be cool to have a site that had a questionair following each race. You could use a mass email to direct people to this or even an event magazine like Mini mac's dad was saying.

 

[mgy]

What do you think the possiblility is that one or some of the larger event promotors in one of the regions would like to take the next step. I don't know about the experience of any of the people on this forum, but if this organization communicated directly with the larger event promoters I am sure they would have a lot of information and experience to share.
You may find that one of the promotors would want to work with the organization.

Did anyone see my post yesterday? Both these promotors put on big series without NORBA, call or email them. Utah series info http://www.intermountaincup.com/
Wisconsin series info http://www.wors.org/home.php , includes payout program

 

[dhtahoe]

saw it!!! Deer Valley would be awesome to bring back for sure.

 

[Transcend]

I have been doing a bunch of work on this this afternoon, believe it or not.

Here are a few more random things - Xtreme sports network, Ste Anne Duel, Grouse 4x. Look to those for some good ideas. The old ste anne Duel/Grouse 4x and 1997 bromont duel were amazing.

Xtreme sports network (cable) is repackaging stuff for their network..they were live at the ste anne world cup. Big possibility there.

 

[ÆX]

What do you think the possiblility is that one or some of the larger event promotors in one of the regions would like to take the next step. I don't know about the experience of any of the people on this forum, but if this organization communicated directly with the larger event promoters I am sure they would have a lot of information and experience to share.
You may find that one of the promotors would want to work with the organization.

"The local promotor would be "hired" to meet certain standards of the association. If they did not they would not be able to bid on another National unless they fixed certain issues."

my sedimate exactly.

most promoters might now promoting for the good of the sport.
they have bills to pay on there audi's.

geedy promoters cost "the race quality"

 

[Transcend]

The problem is, if they do not conform to the standards up front, you are still screwed and will have a ****ty race. I think the promoter has to have an organization person on handm, throughout the entire process.

 

[Motionboy2]

geedy promoters cost "the race quality"

I fully agree with this statement, but this does not have anything to do with what I am trying to get across.

I will try again. Before the organization moves forward lots of questions need to be asked and asnwered. I think talking to race promotors would be a good idea in order to gain the info that they have collected based on their experience.

I only know one race promoter, he has a full time job 9 months out of the year and still works that job part time during the race season. He also puts on one of the more respectable race series in the nation with a solid payout. I know he is not a greedy race promoter, so therefore I know there are good guys out there to talk to.

 

[TheInedibleHulk]

Xtreme sports network is a good idea. I am curious what NORBA has done in the last two years to even attempt to get TV coverage. The old OLN coverage was ok, though not great, but you would think NORBA could at least be getting something. OLN is flooded with hunting show reruns and I saw a school bus demolition derby on espn2 a while ago, in which the top speed was about 4 mph. It seems like sports networks have relegated mtn bike racing to some goofy one off status, but particularly with the fast paced action and contact of mtn-x, it could be a very exciting event if packaged correctly. TV coverage will encourage sponsors, who are currently marketing to only a small captive audience (I sometimes wonder why companies like giant and cannondale even both with mtn bike teams). As to the age group debate, they could certainly be consolidated a bit from what we have now, expert 19-25 and 25-29 is awfully redundant. Age groups as wide as originally suggested would be likely to scare some people off I think.

One thing to keep in mind, the riders here may not be able to have their cake and eat it too. I have no doubt that norba is currently mismanaged and is ignoring the needs of its riders, but it's not like the norba gurus in springs are hordeing millions of dollars. This stuff does cost money, ski resorts charge astronomically for everything, but personally I think most riders wouldn't mind paying a little more for decnt races and more than a cardboard plaque as a prize. All I mean to say is you can't please everyone.

I also think an ABA style advancement system would benefit everyone. IN my first full season in expert this year, I qualified for semi pro in my first race with two crashes. A points system would keep the classes better spread, and get rid of the sandbaggers and roadblocks.

 

[dhtahoe]

FYI a ski resort pays NORBA $50,000 to host a National!!!! And take up to 50 rooms or more for there staff that the resort provides. No they don't horde they just take. If I had $50,000 I KNOW I could put on one hell of a race!

 

[Transcend]

FYI a ski resort pays NORBA $50,000 to host a National!!!! And take up to 50 rooms or more for there staff that the resort provides. No they don't horde they just take. If I had $50,000 I KNOW I could put on one hell of a race!

You would also have MANY more viable venues, if you could bring that down to $10 000. Or get a few sponsors, a kick ass resort and DONT CHARGE THEM. DUH. Why should the resort pay a federation? No.

There are other viable ways to raise the $ without having to rape, pillage and plunder.

and inedible...NORBA doesn't horde cash int hat sense, but have you seen norba officials salaries? Have you seen the immense waste at nationals? I have a budget around here for a single race once...Even a LARGE race, done right, can be done for a minimal amount of something like $15 000 if you don't have to pay the resort for runnign the lifts. Hell at norba, they pay you!

 

[TheInedibleHulk]

Thats suprising to hear, I had always assumed NORBA dished out some cash to the resorts. I havent seen what NORBA salaries are like, but I have heard rumors that they're a tad... generous. All I know is that with all the money flying around at an NCS race, the fact that no one can scrounge a couple grand for pro purse is severly indicative of how much the rider's concerns matter to management.

 

[dhtahoe]

NORBA is still a non-profit... right!

 

[Pegboy]

A few ideas from ski racing; Classes should be junior(under eighteen), open (18+) and masters(30 or 35+). If you are "masters" age, but still have what it takes, you can race open class, your choice. Too many classes dilutes the significance of a podium spot, makes it tougher to report media wise and has to be more difficult to sort out results. Beg-expert results fall through the cracks because who wants to spend time sorting it out, and, printing space is limited. Create "Cup" events. For example, lets call the Vermont stop the Ben and Jerry's Cup. B&J's would be the title sponsor and put up the cash purse. Do actually create a cup trophy that names could be engraved on for the winners. DOesn't have to be Stanley quality, could just have a wooden base with room for tack on style brass tags. Cup events are good advertising for sponsors and having a permanent trophy is kinda cool when you can go back a few years later and see your name on it. This would be possible with fewer classes. 5 grand extra for a purse is a drop in the bucket for bigger companies and would go a long way for a purse. You guys are going to have alot of exspenses to cover and if you want to keep entry fees resonable, your pay out should not come from there. Also it time for DH'ers to look outside the industy like tahoe said. Mtb'ing is similar to skiing in thaqt there is no damn money in the sport or industry. I made a living for 5+ years from companies that had nothing to do with skiing or sports. I raced events like the Columbia Crest Cup (Wine Company) and the Huntsman Cup (chemical company). Money is out there, you just got to work for it, racing is the easy part. Good luck.

 

[dhtahoe]

The Ski race way is f'ing up our race program at N*!!!

 

[edo-chan]

I think you should fight about the name more.

Have minimal amateur classes, age-related. Also have a pro class.

If there are people out there wishing to be the best beginner in their age class ever, to hell with them. If someone wants to see where they stand relative to other people in an age range, let them see their time compared to the others in their class.

If you're a pro, you're racing for money; QFA and race. Semi-pro...pfft.

 

[Pip3r]

If there are people out there wishing to be the best beginner in their age class ever, to hell with them. If someone wants to see where they stand relative to other people in an age range, let them see their time compared to the others in their class.

id have to agree. It sounds harsh, but i personally think that would be the best way. Get rid of sport class. Keep track of how many races someone has done, and after say 4 or 5 races they have to move up to expert/advanced.
Its understandable to be a begginer (wanting to try out racing for the first time). But to have sport class riders that have been racing for a few years seems kind of pointless. If your not fast enough to compete with people of your own age then do something about it and get faster.
Getting rid of sport class will, as previously said, make results more meaningful, be easier for promotors, cost less money, allow better prizes for the people deserving them.

 

[Transcend]

some people race for fun, not to win. keep that in mind.