A quick thought about Iraq & Presidential Candidates:

Discussion in 'Politics & World News' started by BurlyShirley, Dec 21, 2007.

  1. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    Currently, I think the war in Iraq has to be the biggest issue of the upcoming election and current US politics, yet I cant seem to identify a candidate who views this conflict or its resolution in a reasonable manner.

    Here's how I see it:

    Obviously, we went in under false pretenses, were underprepared and things got out of hand. We completely miscalculated just about everything from spending to manpower, to public support you name it. It's more or less a disaster.

    However, the fact remains that the country is in pretty piss poor shape and IMO, we have a moral obligation to stay there and finish the job of restoring some semblance of order before we withdraw. Far too many have died, too much has been destroyed to leave these people in shambles. We have to stay and fix it.

    Im against withdraw deadlines, troop drawdowns etc. What I am for is opening up all the contracting to international bidding, turning over military control to NATO, UN, whoever will take it and PLEADING for help. We need to fix what we broke and just suck up the costs...we dont need to worry about the profits of war anymore. Just get the thing done.

    Any candidates got something similar in mind?
     

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  2. RenegadeRick

    RenegadeRick 98th percentile on my SAT & all I got was this tin

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    Since the US has done such a great job funking Iraq up, what makes you think we can fix it? That makes about as much sense as giving even more responsibility for our safety to the folks that let 9-11 happen :poster_oops:.

    I like your ideas of giving authority over this mess to the UN, or quite frankly, ANYONE else. I just don't think the US can end the violence over there without turning the place into a glass parking lot. Believe me, if the multinational oil conglomerates had drill bits that could chew through that stuff to get through the oil, the US probably would have done that a loooooooong time ago.

    I think the responsible and compassionate thing would be to get the funk out of Iraq. This might give them a chance to rebuild their nation or maybe to split into separate nations... whatever.

    On your question of is there a candidate who wants to do what you are suggesting, I think the answer is no.
     
  3. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    What would be reasonable or compassionate about leaving a power vacuum that would undoubtedly result in more violence, attacks, potential genocide and instability in the region? Up and leaving would be the LEAST responsible option.
     
  4. firemandivi

    firemandivi They drank my Tooters

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    why not just nuke the whole area, turn the entire middle east into glass.

    If the politicians in Iraq cannot take control of their own country I say to bad, we've given them more than ample time. Leave just a few soldiers there to train their own people and get the majority of our men & women out.
     
  5. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    Why not nuke a region and kill millions of people? Because that's fvcking sick, wrong, racist, unnecessary and unrealistic to name a few of the reasons. I shouldnt even dignify that with a response.

    If the politicians in Iraq cant get control, we should help them until they do. They didnt break things. WE DID.
     
  6. Westy

    Westy the teste

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    Unfortunately probably the only reason why we haven't isn't because of moral reasons but because it would make gas expensive.
     
  7. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    Okay, obviously the part about turning over military control to a foreign body is a bit of a pipe dream, but what sucks about this upcoming election is that NO ONE wants to do the right things for the right reasons.
    I simply cannot support a democrat who wants to skip out on these people whose lives we destroyed.
    Yet, I cannot bring myself to support some republican who wants to "stay the course" but will most likely lead us only deeper into the quagmire while further ruining our economy.
    WTF?
     
  8. DirtyDog

    DirtyDog Gang probed by the Golden Banana

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    How much power do you think we have over there now?
     
  9. firemandivi

    firemandivi They drank my Tooters

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    So we should keep over 100,000 soldiers in Iraq until their government can handle everything? Why would they ever accomplish anything if they know that the US will always be there to bail them out of trouble. They need to be able to stand on their own, we have to tell them that we will slowly start to withdraw our troops no matter how bad the turmoil is. I bet that if we start removing troops the Iraqi government would start doing its job. If not, I'm willing to pay more for gas.
     
  10. DirtyDog

    DirtyDog Gang probed by the Golden Banana

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    I think you overestimate our ability to do anything positive over there. Yes we fukced it up, but do you really think ongoing military presence is going to change anything?
     
  11. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    Enough that a coup sponsored by friendly neighborhood Iran hasnt replaced the semi-effective lawmaking body we've put in place just yet. What do you think happens when we leave?
     
  12. firemandivi

    firemandivi They drank my Tooters

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    I think most of the country would agree with that statement. For me, I'm voting only if Hillary wins the Democrat nomination. I just couldn't live with myself if she was to win and I didn't vote against her.
     
  13. DirtyDog

    DirtyDog Gang probed by the Golden Banana

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    I think a coup by Iran would improve the lives of the Iraqis. Anything would be better than current circumstances.
     
  14. LordOpie

    LordOpie MOTHER HEN

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    Derailed out of the box.

    I thought BS wanted to know which candidate had some kind of plan to what BS thought would be a good solution?

    (I don't have that answer, just trying to clarify the thread?)
     
  15. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    You dont think an international coalition could similarly help? Iran is a loose cannon regardless of your personal politics. Holocaust denial, human rights violations, etc. I know people from iran (durka durka) it aint all gravy.
     
  16. DirtyDog

    DirtyDog Gang probed by the Golden Banana

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    Yes I think an international coalition could help - but it would need to be massive and I don't think it can be brought together.

    I don't like Iran. However, I didn't like Saddam either, and it turns out that it takes a ruthless dictator to keep that hornets nest under control. I think an Arab nation would do what needs to be done. We don't know what the hell we are dealing with over there. Too many cultural differences.
     
  17. firemandivi

    firemandivi They drank my Tooters

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    The international coalition hasn't had much success to date has it?

    what does "durka durka" mean anyway?
     
  18. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    I mean an actual coalition looking to make peace instead of one looking to profit from war.

    Edit: Durka Durka means Im fluent in Iraki Terrist.
     
  19. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    Well Iran isnt even an Arab nation, it's persian so until you understand what the cultural differences even are, I probably wouldnt be suggesting any if I were you.
     
  20. DirtyDog

    DirtyDog Gang probed by the Golden Banana

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    LOL, you know what I mean. They share a lot more cultural traits with Iraq than we do. Obviously.
     
  21. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    There are three very distinct faiths within Iraq, what do you think happens to different faiths under Iranian control? Are you willing to live with those consequences when we could've changed things for the better?

    I mean obviously you are, as are alot of others, but doing what's right isnt doing what's easy.
     
  22. DirtyDog

    DirtyDog Gang probed by the Golden Banana

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    That's where we differ in opinion. Not possible.
     
  23. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    I disagree that it's not possible. Difficult, expensive, time consuming? Yes.
    Impossible. No.
    The right thing to do from a humanitarian perspective? Absolutely.
     
  24. RenegadeRick

    RenegadeRick 98th percentile on my SAT & all I got was this tin

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    This is the message of non-enabling taught in self-help groups around the world. Sometimes the best way to help is to stop helping.
     
  25. RenegadeRick

    RenegadeRick 98th percentile on my SAT & all I got was this tin

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    What do you expect to be different by us staying over there?
    What would you suggest we do differently to make things different?

    Doing the same thing and expecting different results is insanity.
     
  26. firemandivi

    firemandivi They drank my Tooters

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    So when are we going to Darfur? Is the US responsible to help every country that can't handle their own inner politics or only the ones with vast oil reserves?
     
  27. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    ...at the very least it's responsible for the ones it causes.
     
  28. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    Do you know how to read?
     
  29. firemandivi

    firemandivi They drank my Tooters

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    Forget about WMD's was it right to remove Saddam from power because of the genocide he was doing against the Kurds?
     
  30. dante

    dante Unabomber

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    honestly, our *only* hope of getting together a real international coalition is that we get a democrat in office who can go around to world leaders saying basically "look, my predecessor f**ked up, he took us to war unnecessarily. he'll go down in history as one of the worst presidents ever, but that doesn't change the facts on the ground. Iraq needs help, from everyone. We've helped out every country in the world at some point in the last 200 years, from our allies in WWII to those who we defeated and rebuilt in the aftermath. So, to China, S. Korea, Japan, Indonesia, Russia, France, Germany, England, India, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Poland, etc, we need your help and are asking for it now." That might get us somewhere. It would be VERY hard for a repub to walk into the Oval Office and then try to ask for help after walking lock-step with Bush during the election cycle going on and on about how Bush was right to go into Iraq, Saddam was a bad man, the WMD got moved to Syria, whatever.

    I think we should split Iraq into 3 pieces, give each new country the means to defend itself against its neighbors, ask them to play nice with the other former bits of Iraq, and get teh F out. :lighten:
     
  31. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    Right or wrong, leaving the situation as it is right now is equally reprehensible to any of Saddam's action IMO.
     
  32. RenegadeRick

    RenegadeRick 98th percentile on my SAT & all I got was this tin

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    Um, yeah. And I didn't see anything in your posts about doing anything other than sticking around until order is achieved. That is what we are doing now. I am asking what you think we should do different.

    Even if we were able to use force to gain order, what do you think will happen when that force is removed?
     
  33. firemandivi

    firemandivi They drank my Tooters

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    I honestly don't know what we can do to fix the situation. Obviously what we've been trying isn't working too well. The one thing I believe would really help the situation is educating people of Islam faith that all people are the same. There are countries out there educating their young that Jewish people come from pigs and that Americans want to kill them. If you really want to help you have to change the way people view the world. In reality its all but impossible.
     
  34. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    So apparently you cant read then.
     
  35. firemandivi

    firemandivi They drank my Tooters

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  36. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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    It has to be more than just us involved. You think the Japanese after WWII simply forgot their culture and decided to change their entire political philosophy? How about the Germans? This kind of thing is not entirely new, but we need help, IMO, and we should ask around the world for it.
     
  37. firemandivi

    firemandivi They drank my Tooters

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    I'm not talking about just one country, most of the Islamic world's view on people has to change. You can't teach young people that people of a different religion are not really human beings so its ok to kill them.

    Going back to my first post "NUKE'EM" didn't we nuke Japan twice.
    Depending on how you look at it Germany was just one nut case. Not an entire religion.
     
  38. RenegadeRick

    RenegadeRick 98th percentile on my SAT & all I got was this tin

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    The only dems who want to do anything like this are Kucinich and Gravel. Are they even still in the race?

    There is only one Republican who has not marched in lock-step with Bush. His name is Ron Paul.

    This sounds like a good idea.

    This does too.
     
  39. dante

    dante Unabomber

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    funny thing is, Saddam's Iraq was secular. it's our actions which have turned it into a theocracy... :lighten:
     
  40. BurlyShirley

    BurlyShirley Rex Grossman Will Rise Again

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