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A quick thought about Iraq & Presidential Candidates:

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,183
1
TN
Currently, I think the war in Iraq has to be the biggest issue of the upcoming election and current US politics, yet I cant seem to identify a candidate who views this conflict or its resolution in a reasonable manner.

Here's how I see it:

Obviously, we went in under false pretenses, were underprepared and things got out of hand. We completely miscalculated just about everything from spending to manpower, to public support you name it. It's more or less a disaster.

However, the fact remains that the country is in pretty piss poor shape and IMO, we have a moral obligation to stay there and finish the job of restoring some semblance of order before we withdraw. Far too many have died, too much has been destroyed to leave these people in shambles. We have to stay and fix it.

Im against withdraw deadlines, troop drawdowns etc. What I am for is opening up all the contracting to international bidding, turning over military control to NATO, UN, whoever will take it and PLEADING for help. We need to fix what we broke and just suck up the costs...we dont need to worry about the profits of war anymore. Just get the thing done.

Any candidates got something similar in mind?
 

RenegadeRick

98th percentile on my SAT & all I got was this tin
However, the fact remains that the country is in pretty piss poor shape and IMO, we have a moral obligation to stay there and finish the job of restoring some semblance of order before we withdraw. Far too many have died, too much has been destroyed to leave these people in shambles. We have to stay and fix it.

Im against withdraw deadlines, troop drawdowns etc. What I am for is opening up all the contracting to international bidding, turning over military control to NATO, UN, whoever will take it and PLEADING for help. We need to fix what we broke and just suck up the costs...we dont need to worry about the profits of war anymore. Just get the thing done.

Any candidates got something similar in mind?
Since the US has done such a great job funking Iraq up, what makes you think we can fix it? That makes about as much sense as giving even more responsibility for our safety to the folks that let 9-11 happen :poster_oops:.

I like your ideas of giving authority over this mess to the UN, or quite frankly, ANYONE else. I just don't think the US can end the violence over there without turning the place into a glass parking lot. Believe me, if the multinational oil conglomerates had drill bits that could chew through that stuff to get through the oil, the US probably would have done that a loooooooong time ago.

I think the responsible and compassionate thing would be to get the funk out of Iraq. This might give them a chance to rebuild their nation or maybe to split into separate nations... whatever.

On your question of is there a candidate who wants to do what you are suggesting, I think the answer is no.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,183
1
TN
What would be reasonable or compassionate about leaving a power vacuum that would undoubtedly result in more violence, attacks, potential genocide and instability in the region? Up and leaving would be the LEAST responsible option.
 

firemandivi

They drank my Tooters
Sep 7, 2006
784
0
a state called denial
why not just nuke the whole area, turn the entire middle east into glass.

If the politicians in Iraq cannot take control of their own country I say to bad, we've given them more than ample time. Leave just a few soldiers there to train their own people and get the majority of our men & women out.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,183
1
TN
Why not nuke a region and kill millions of people? Because that's fvcking sick, wrong, racist, unnecessary and unrealistic to name a few of the reasons. I shouldnt even dignify that with a response.

If the politicians in Iraq cant get control, we should help them until they do. They didnt break things. WE DID.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
36,899
3,716
Sleazattle
Why not nuke a region and kill millions of people? Because that's fvcking sick, wrong, racist, unnecessary and unrealistic to name a few of the reasons. I shouldnt even dignify that with a response.

If the politicians in Iraq cant get control, we should help them until they do. They didnt break things. WE DID.

Unfortunately probably the only reason why we haven't isn't because of moral reasons but because it would make gas expensive.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,183
1
TN
Okay, obviously the part about turning over military control to a foreign body is a bit of a pipe dream, but what sucks about this upcoming election is that NO ONE wants to do the right things for the right reasons.
I simply cannot support a democrat who wants to skip out on these people whose lives we destroyed.
Yet, I cannot bring myself to support some republican who wants to "stay the course" but will most likely lead us only deeper into the quagmire while further ruining our economy.
WTF?
 

DirtyDog

Gang probed by the Golden Banana
Aug 2, 2005
6,599
0
What would be reasonable or compassionate about leaving a power vacuum that would undoubtedly result in more violence, attacks, potential genocide and instability in the region? Up and leaving would be the LEAST responsible option.
How much power do you think we have over there now?
 

firemandivi

They drank my Tooters
Sep 7, 2006
784
0
a state called denial
Why not nuke a region and kill millions of people? Because that's fvcking sick, wrong, racist, unnecessary and unrealistic to name a few of the reasons. I shouldnt even dignify that with a response.

If the politicians in Iraq cant get control, we should help them until they do. They didnt break things. WE DID.
So we should keep over 100,000 soldiers in Iraq until their government can handle everything? Why would they ever accomplish anything if they know that the US will always be there to bail them out of trouble. They need to be able to stand on their own, we have to tell them that we will slowly start to withdraw our troops no matter how bad the turmoil is. I bet that if we start removing troops the Iraqi government would start doing its job. If not, I'm willing to pay more for gas.
 

DirtyDog

Gang probed by the Golden Banana
Aug 2, 2005
6,599
0
I simply cannot support a democrat who wants to skip out on these people whose lives we destroyed.
I think you overestimate our ability to do anything positive over there. Yes we fukced it up, but do you really think ongoing military presence is going to change anything?
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,183
1
TN
How much power do you think we have over there now?
Enough that a coup sponsored by friendly neighborhood Iran hasnt replaced the semi-effective lawmaking body we've put in place just yet. What do you think happens when we leave?
 

firemandivi

They drank my Tooters
Sep 7, 2006
784
0
a state called denial
I simply cannot support a democrat who wants to skip out on these people whose lives we destroyed.
Yet, I cannot bring myself to support some republican who wants to "stay the course" but will most likely lead us only deeper into the quagmire while further ruining our economy.
WTF?
I think most of the country would agree with that statement. For me, I'm voting only if Hillary wins the Democrat nomination. I just couldn't live with myself if she was to win and I didn't vote against her.
 

DirtyDog

Gang probed by the Golden Banana
Aug 2, 2005
6,599
0
Enough that a coup sponsored by friendly neighborhood Iran hasnt replaced the semi-effective lawmaking body we've put in place just yet. What do you think happens when we leave?
I think a coup by Iran would improve the lives of the Iraqis. Anything would be better than current circumstances.
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,033
1
Denver
Derailed out of the box.

I thought BS wanted to know which candidate had some kind of plan to what BS thought would be a good solution?

(I don't have that answer, just trying to clarify the thread?)
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,183
1
TN
I think a coup by Iran would improve the lives of the Iraqis. Anything would be better than current circumstances.
You dont think an international coalition could similarly help? Iran is a loose cannon regardless of your personal politics. Holocaust denial, human rights violations, etc. I know people from iran (durka durka) it aint all gravy.
 

DirtyDog

Gang probed by the Golden Banana
Aug 2, 2005
6,599
0
You dont think an international coalition could similarly help? Iran is a loose cannon regardless of your personal politics. Holocaust denial, human rights violations, etc. I know people from iran (durka durka) it aint all gravy.
Yes I think an international coalition could help - but it would need to be massive and I don't think it can be brought together.

I don't like Iran. However, I didn't like Saddam either, and it turns out that it takes a ruthless dictator to keep that hornets nest under control. I think an Arab nation would do what needs to be done. We don't know what the hell we are dealing with over there. Too many cultural differences.
 

firemandivi

They drank my Tooters
Sep 7, 2006
784
0
a state called denial
You dont think an international coalition could similarly help? Iran is a loose cannon regardless of your personal politics. Holocaust denial, human rights violations, etc. I know people from iran (durka durka) it aint all gravy.
The international coalition hasn't had much success to date has it?

what does "durka durka" mean anyway?
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,183
1
TN
The international coalition hasn't had much success to date has it?

what does "durka durka" mean anyway?
I mean an actual coalition looking to make peace instead of one looking to profit from war.

Edit: Durka Durka means Im fluent in Iraki Terrist.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,183
1
TN
Yes I think an international coalition could help - but it would need to be massive and I don't think it can be brought together.

I don't like Iran. However, I didn't like Saddam either, and it turns out that it takes a ruthless dictator to keep that hornets nest under control. I think an Arab nation would do what needs to be done. We don't know what the hell we are dealing with over there. Too many cultural differences.
Well Iran isnt even an Arab nation, it's persian so until you understand what the cultural differences even are, I probably wouldnt be suggesting any if I were you.
 

DirtyDog

Gang probed by the Golden Banana
Aug 2, 2005
6,599
0
Well Iran isnt even an Arab nation, it's persian so until you understand what the cultural differences even are, I probably wouldnt be suggesting any if I were you.
LOL, you know what I mean. They share a lot more cultural traits with Iraq than we do. Obviously.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,183
1
TN
LOL, you know what I mean. They share a lot more cultural traits with Iraq than we do. Obviously.

There are three very distinct faiths within Iraq, what do you think happens to different faiths under Iranian control? Are you willing to live with those consequences when we could've changed things for the better?

I mean obviously you are, as are alot of others, but doing what's right isnt doing what's easy.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,183
1
TN
I disagree that it's not possible. Difficult, expensive, time consuming? Yes.
Impossible. No.
The right thing to do from a humanitarian perspective? Absolutely.
 

RenegadeRick

98th percentile on my SAT & all I got was this tin
Why would they ever accomplish anything if they know that the US will always be there to bail them out of trouble. They need to be able to stand on their own, we have to tell them that we will slowly start to withdraw our troops no matter how bad the turmoil is.
This is the message of non-enabling taught in self-help groups around the world. Sometimes the best way to help is to stop helping.
 

RenegadeRick

98th percentile on my SAT & all I got was this tin
I disagree that it's not possible. Difficult, expensive, time consuming? Yes.
Impossible. No.
The right thing to do from a humanitarian perspective? Absolutely.
What do you expect to be different by us staying over there?
What would you suggest we do differently to make things different?

Doing the same thing and expecting different results is insanity.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,815
8
looking for classic NE singletrack
Yes I think an international coalition could help - but it would need to be massive and I don't think it can be brought together.
honestly, our *only* hope of getting together a real international coalition is that we get a democrat in office who can go around to world leaders saying basically "look, my predecessor f**ked up, he took us to war unnecessarily. he'll go down in history as one of the worst presidents ever, but that doesn't change the facts on the ground. Iraq needs help, from everyone. We've helped out every country in the world at some point in the last 200 years, from our allies in WWII to those who we defeated and rebuilt in the aftermath. So, to China, S. Korea, Japan, Indonesia, Russia, France, Germany, England, India, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Poland, etc, we need your help and are asking for it now." That might get us somewhere. It would be VERY hard for a repub to walk into the Oval Office and then try to ask for help after walking lock-step with Bush during the election cycle going on and on about how Bush was right to go into Iraq, Saddam was a bad man, the WMD got moved to Syria, whatever.

I think we should split Iraq into 3 pieces, give each new country the means to defend itself against its neighbors, ask them to play nice with the other former bits of Iraq, and get teh F out. :lighten:
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,183
1
TN
Forget about WMD's was it right to remove Saddam from power because of the genocide he was doing against the Kurds?
Right or wrong, leaving the situation as it is right now is equally reprehensible to any of Saddam's action IMO.
 

RenegadeRick

98th percentile on my SAT & all I got was this tin
Do you know how to read?
Um, yeah. And I didn't see anything in your posts about doing anything other than sticking around until order is achieved. That is what we are doing now. I am asking what you think we should do different.

Even if we were able to use force to gain order, what do you think will happen when that force is removed?
 

firemandivi

They drank my Tooters
Sep 7, 2006
784
0
a state called denial
Right or wrong, leaving the situation as it is right now is equally reprehensible to any of Saddam's action IMO.
I honestly don't know what we can do to fix the situation. Obviously what we've been trying isn't working too well. The one thing I believe would really help the situation is educating people of Islam faith that all people are the same. There are countries out there educating their young that Jewish people come from pigs and that Americans want to kill them. If you really want to help you have to change the way people view the world. In reality its all but impossible.
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,183
1
TN
I honestly don't know what we can do to fix the situation. Obviously what we've been trying isn't working too well. The one thing I believe would really help the situation is educating people of Islam faith that all people are the same. There are countries out there educating their young that Jewish people come from pigs and that Americans want to kill them. If you really want to help you have to change the way people view the world. In reality its all but impossible.
It has to be more than just us involved. You think the Japanese after WWII simply forgot their culture and decided to change their entire political philosophy? How about the Germans? This kind of thing is not entirely new, but we need help, IMO, and we should ask around the world for it.
 

firemandivi

They drank my Tooters
Sep 7, 2006
784
0
a state called denial
It has to be more than just us involved. You think the Japanese after WWII simply forgot their culture and decided to change their entire political philosophy? How about the Germans? This kind of thing is not entirely new, but we need help, IMO, and we should ask around the world for it.
I'm not talking about just one country, most of the Islamic world's view on people has to change. You can't teach young people that people of a different religion are not really human beings so its ok to kill them.

Going back to my first post "NUKE'EM" didn't we nuke Japan twice.
Depending on how you look at it Germany was just one nut case. Not an entire religion.
 

RenegadeRick

98th percentile on my SAT & all I got was this tin
honestly, our *only* hope of getting together a real international coalition is that we get a democrat in office who can go around to world leaders saying basically "look, my predecessor f**ked up, he took us to war unnecessarily.
The only dems who want to do anything like this are Kucinich and Gravel. Are they even still in the race?

It would be VERY hard for a repub to walk into the Oval Office and then try to ask for help after walking lock-step with Bush during the election cycle going on and on about how Bush was right to go into Iraq, Saddam was a bad man, the WMD got moved to Syria, whatever.
There is only one Republican who has not marched in lock-step with Bush. His name is Ron Paul.

Iraq needs help, from everyone. We've helped out every country in the world at some point in the last 200 years, from our allies in WWII to those who we defeated and rebuilt in the aftermath. So, to China, S. Korea, Japan, Indonesia, Russia, France, Germany, England, India, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Poland, etc, we need your help and are asking for it now." That might get us somewhere.
This sounds like a good idea.

I think we should split Iraq into 3 pieces, give each new country the means to defend itself against its neighbors, ask them to play nice with the other former bits of Iraq, and get teh F out. :lighten:
This does too.
 

dante

Unabomber
Feb 13, 2004
8,815
8
looking for classic NE singletrack
I'm not talking about just one country, most of the Islamic world's view on people has to change. You can't teach young people that people of a different religion are not really human beings so its ok to kill them.

Going back to my first post "NUKE'EM" didn't we nuke Japan twice.
Depending on how you look at it Germany was just one nut case. Not an entire religion.
funny thing is, Saddam's Iraq was secular. it's our actions which have turned it into a theocracy... :lighten:
 

BurlyShirley

Rex Grossman Will Rise Again
Jul 4, 2002
19,183
1
TN
I'm not talking about just one country, most of the Islamic world's view on people has to change. You can't teach young people that people of a different religion are not really human beings so its ok to kill them.
You have a problem with muslims, whatever. The fact of the matter is that Iraq has been fairly peaceful before and can be again. Obviously, different steps need to be taken. Leaving the people to rot will not only empower those fundamentalist types who use terrorism as a tool to kill Christians, non muslims, etc., but it will also just plain screw over plenty of good people who didnt do a damn thing wrong.


Going back to my first post "NUKE'EM" didn't we nuke Japan twice.
Depending on how you look at it Germany was just one nut case. Not an entire religion.
Quit posting this BS please. Nobody is nuking anybody.