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A Serious conversation about offseason workouts

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by acair422, Oct 21, 2013.

  1. acair422

    acair422 Monkey

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    I'd like to get started a serious thread about how people prepare in the offseason. And yes I already know I should increase my jerking off (both righty and lefty) as well as the usual "ride more". This is not exactly the advice I'm hoping for here. For those who ride stationary bikes/road bikes for fitness, any programs you abide by? Anyone out their lifting weights and noticing positive results in their riding? Come on I can't be the only one out there looking to get a bit faster this winter...
     

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  2. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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    EPO, HGH, methamphetamines.

    spend some time on the trainer, but check out other activities. rock climbing is a great off season work out.
     
  3. supercow

    supercow Monkey

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    #3 -   Oct 21, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2013
  4. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    Lifting weights is not the way to go. You need muscular endurance, not strength. Remember both Graves and Sick Mick lost weight during their DH training programs. Gee is also pretty lean and he is probably the fittest rider right now. The only reason why would you want more muscle is if you are 150lbs and you get injured left and right because of that.

    Functional training with a big focus on core strength and legs plus some balance (upside down bosu ball squats are nice, same for one legged squats with a kettleball) and coordination stuff added. The stuff James Wilson posts on PB is pretty usefull if you don't know where to start. If you want to train with someone start in a crossfit gym ( a real one where people train for crossfit events not a one for stay at home moms). It may concentrate more on the arms than you need but it will teach you the proper technique for a lot of useful training and it will give you a ton of endurance.

    Instead of stationary bike I'd suggest a rowing machine and just do intervals on it. 30s full on/30s cool down for 20min at the begining and increase from there.
     
    #4 -   Oct 21, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2013
  5. FlipFantasia

    FlipFantasia Turbo Monkey

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    this>kettlebells

     
  6. djjohnr

    djjohnr Turbo Monkey

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    YUP :thumb:

     
  7. gemini2k

    gemini2k Turbo Monkey

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    Ride a stationary bike + olympic lifts. Fitness is no secret.
     
  8. acair422

    acair422 Monkey

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    I dont' have the funds to ski (unfortunately) and I cannot do crossfit as losing weight for me isn't an option (at 5'10 and 140lbs) so yes my diet needs work but in reality what I need to do this winter is add about 10-15lbs and a lot of overall strength to help with moving the bike through the rough stuff and gain endurance (given that race runs out here are 7min+)
     
  9. CBJ

    CBJ Turbo Monkey

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    Drink a lot of beer can help with the weight gain.
     
  10. marshalolson

    marshalolson Turbo Monkey

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    eat a lot of protein for every meal (ex: eggs for breakfast, almonds mid-am, chicken with lunch, cashews in the afternoon, and pork with dinner) and either go running or ride a road bike.
     
  11. wiscodh

    wiscodh Monkey

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    eat big to get big. Just keep it clean eating.

    I do the dorkfit thing 3-4 times a week. It is fun and i cannot do the stationary bike at all. It gets super culty, I am just there to improve my overall fitness and i know 24hour fitness isnt for me.

    Anyways, great things about the Olympic lifts and lifting in general are hip explosion (cornering) , core strength( obviously everything), leg strength (need i say more), and stability. The arm and back strenght have been nice because i have been able to muscle out of some hairball situations that would have seen me eat **** i am sure of it.
     
  12. wiscodh

    wiscodh Monkey

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    heaven on a splitboard!
     
  13. captainspauldin

    captainspauldin intrigued by a pole

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    If you're looking to gain muscle and workout at night/at the end of the day, carb backloading might be something for you to look into(to supplement your workouts): http://www.carbbackloading.com/ Yes, you can buy the book to get the details, but it's not rocket science.
     
  14. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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    HGH it is then!

    :panic:
     
  15. slyfink

    slyfink Turbo Monkey

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    I don't think crossfit will have you losing weight. quite the contrary, you'll be putting on muscle. Those olympic lifts will also really help with the arm pump thing too.
     
  16. atrokz

    atrokz Turbo Monkey

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    What other sport requires intense aerobic-alactic activity for 5 minutes?

    Go look at training programs for fighters and you'll see great workouts that will translate to DH cycling perfectly with a few tweaks (you may or may not see a benefit in the neck workouts, for instance). BJJ and MT training kept me at my fittest and worked great for speed and strength, both of which count in DH. Then there's the flexibility work, TONS of core work, etc will all really help you move faster and more controlled on your bike, while increasing stamina at those outputs. Just spinning on a bike is just a minor % of what really works for DH. Remember it may be pedaling, but you really need the rest of your body to work the bike as well.

    Flip, stop rubbing that in our faces, it's enough to see your epic rides on FB. Sheesh.
     
    #16 -   Oct 21, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2013
  17. supercow

    supercow Monkey

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    HAHA, you think those guys don't lift lift lift?!!
    Just because you pick heavy sh!t up, put it down and rinse/repeat doesn't mean you will get massive.
     
    #17 -   Oct 21, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2013
  18. kazlx

    kazlx Patches O'Houlihan

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    Lifting definitely makes you a better rider. You aren't going to magically just get huge lifting weights and you don't have to go just for mass. Deadlifts, squats, core exercises and plenty of other routines can add plenty to your riding. I feel 100X better on the bike when I am lifting regularly. Other activities like climbing can help.

    I agree with Supercow...if you think pro athletes aren't lifting....

    Just because you lose weight doesn't mean you aren't gaining muscle mass....
     
  19. Raingauge

    Raingauge Monkey

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    I've gained 20lbs of muscle in 8 months of crossfit. If you want to gain; eat a lot and don't try and smash times when you're there. Go heavier and get a slow time or not finish. I'm in the same boat as you; I'm 5'10" and weigh 160lbs. I'm way stronger than I was last winter because of all the lifting. Find a gym that is very picky about technique on your Olympic lifts.
     
  20. ebarker9

    ebarker9 Monkey

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    Gaining weight for someone who is 5'10 and 140lb is about eating, eating, and more eating. I'm roughly the same size and the only way I can put on muscle when I'm working out is by eating anything and everything. Forget about trying to eat clean...obviously don't throw all nutritional guidelines out the window, but quantity of calories greatly trumps everything else.
     
  21. intensified

    intensified Monkey

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    you could do a xfit kinda thing on your own or the "work outs of the day" at a reg. gym.
    tons of info on the web and wods are announced daily on web sites. great for the core etc.

    i keep a jump rope around and at home do some box jumps,push ups/pull ups. at the gym i have a lot more options and its a cheaper gym.
     
  22. wiscodh

    wiscodh Monkey

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    disagree......eating clean involves real food, not mcd's ect.
     
  23. kazlx

    kazlx Patches O'Houlihan

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    Agree 100%. Being skinny doesn't necessarily mean you are healthy. Eating a ton of crap food isn't the way to you want to put on weight.
     
  24. 0110-M-P

    0110-M-P Monkey

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    Couldn't disagree more
     
  25. OGRipper

    OGRipper Turbo Monkey

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    There is some truth to this if you are talking purely about putting on weight. But "empty calories" are a real thing, and you can better results by eating food with higher nutritional content.

    And of course your overall health will suffer - particularly long term - if you focus on calories and not the quality or nutritional value of your food. Relying on calories alone is kind of like relying on your weight as a measure of fitness - it has some value, but doesn't begin to tell the whole story.
     
  26. William42

    William42 fork ways

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    You can absolutely gain a ton of weight by eating mcd's. Anybody who says otherwise is willfully ignorant. However, turning into a balloon animal probably an ideal fitness goal.
     
  27. acair422

    acair422 Monkey

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    I know I need to eat more and some of what I'm struggling with is what to eat. It would be nice if I could just crush chicken, pork, steak all day every day but financially that's not possible at the moment. I've heard whole grain pasta is a great source of quality calories. Atrokz, what's BJJ and MT training? I know pedaling isn't everything but I know that I need to be logging some time on the bike. I have did crossfit for about a month (while I was living at home and eating like a champ) and found myself losing weight. I understand the princples of it make a ton of sense in relation to DH (hard work for shorter intervals). I'm also looking for someone to possibly divulge a routine/program of sorts. I know the squats, deadlifts, etc are core exercises but there is a method to all of it
     
  28. ebarker9

    ebarker9 Monkey

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    Yes. My main point was that the majority of advice for people looking to gain muscle mass is for people who are at least an average build and looking to shed fat as much as they're trying to put on muscle. For true ectomorphs it can be almost impossible to gain any significant amount of weight by following these guidelines. However, I should have worded my response more carefully...I would not advocate that anyone sacrifice his or her health for the sake of "bulking up". But, if you're 5'10 140lb you're going to need a significant calorie surplus in order to gain and, practically speaking, it's going to be very challenging to eat enough avocados, hard boiled eggs, chicken breast, brown rice, cottage cheese etc that are generally recommended to get those calories. Even Olympic athletes eat some "unclean" food when they're training (reference Michael Phelps)...I'm not suggesting that anyone eat a fast food based diet, but an occasional milk shake, giant burrito, fried egg sandwich etc will help you get those extra calories each day.
     
  29. weedkilla

    weedkilla Monkey

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    140lbs is a pretty similar weight to Nico Vouilloz. Perhaps stop looking at the numbers and concentrate on eating well and training your weaknesses?

    The hardest thing on a budget is getting enough protein. But ensuring that you have a protein/oils based breakfast helps. Reduce the blood sugar swings let's the body build muscle.
    I can't be bothered cooking breakfast, but I have cheese, salami and olives for breakfast and it changes my body shape quickly. Same for anyone I've known who starts eating eggs, etc for breakfast and drops the carbs.
    Guts gets smaller, muscles get bigger.

    I can't help much on the working out thing as its not something I do, but I have a physical job and just work harder and call that a workout. Or if I have too many easy/office/in a tractor days I go trail building.
    Swing a chainsaw/mattock/shovel and yell "CORE STRENGTH, RAAAAARRRRRGGGHHH" as often as you can.
    Sometimes I mix it up and yell protein, or amino acid or even kettle bells.
     
  30. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    Crossfit will not make you loose weight. You will gain it, just slower than normal but if you want to gain weight you will loose some overal cardio fitness. Just lift weights and do some cardio not to become a total bum. Eat more than you think you should.
     
  31. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    I know it doesn't mean you will get huge. Also yes they lift but if you read what the top trainers of DH pros write you would know a lot of them go away from classic lifting weights towards functional training. Yes it involves squats, deadlifts etc but it's not a typical strenght training and if you do that you will loose time. Yes some people have effects in those but for the most part they were already quite fit. Read a bit what top snowboarders or what Eli Tomac does since that's more available. It's SOME lifting but not what most people think.

    I know it doesn't mean you will get huge. Also yes they lift but if you read what the top trainers of DH pros write you would know a lot of them go away from classic lifting weights towards functional training. Yes it involves squats, deadlifts etc but it's not a typical strenght training and if you do that you will loose time. Yes some people have effects in those but for the most part they were already quite fit. Read a bit what top snowboarders or what Eli Tomac does since that's more available. It's SOME lifting but not what most people think.



    PS. Atrokz is very right. MMA and BJJ are great workout examples.
     
    #31 -   Oct 22, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  32. supercow

    supercow Monkey

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    That's an awful lot of concessions / caveats there Norbar, so I'll just take it that we are making similar points, in different ways.

    The vast majority of us in here, are not as fast as we'd like to think, nor are the majority in here professional athletes, and have to deal with daily drudgery that are our jobs / lives.

    The fact is that "off season training" for the majority of us just means that you get yourself in a reasonable to good condition - but we will never really need to push our fitness and bodies to the limit, like Gee / Minaar etc. I will wager a bet that no one in here will "lose time" because they did some "classic lifting" during the off-season.

    This in turn means that a good mix of eating well, eating lots, sleeping well, sleeping lots, lifting heavy sh!t and mix it up with some interesting cardio-esque training (i.e: Kettlebells, Crossfit, a bit of crosstrainer etc) will do wonders for most of us.
     
    #32 -   Oct 22, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  33. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    Yes and no. Simple lifting heavy sh!t is better than nothing but it builds strength more than endurance and we need endurance. Strength is only needed when you are really small. Also you don't have to be racing on the top level to benefit from a high level of fitness. A friend worked on his fitness over the winter and he jumped 30-40 places just thanks to that (since when we do stops we ride similar pace). You can also ride A LOT more and that benefits EVERY rider. I don't remember the last time I thought "gosh I wish I was stronger" and I'm only a bit over 160lb at 5'10'' while every year no matter how fit I am I wish I had better muscular endurance either in my arms, back or legs.
     
  34. slyfink

    slyfink Turbo Monkey

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    You say you did x-fit for a month, and then you say you're unsure on method of squats and deadlifts etc. That leads me to believe you went to a crap x-fit place. If they weren't teaching you technique, then you should go there and get your money back.

    Also, I think Norbar is doing you a disservice by opposing endurance and strength training. They are part of the complete package. From what I gather, they are different elements of the "fitness house" with (functional) strength being the foundation, upon which you build your endurance. At the beginning of the offseason you build your strength, and then as your season gets closer, then you work on endurance.

    That said, depending on where you live and what your off-season activities are, you may not actually need to work on "base miles" as your season gets closer. I have roadie/cyclocross friends and asked them about base miles one year. Here, we have one of the best places to xc ski in North America. Most of us ski in the winter and it really helps keep our base fitness going. Most pros need an offseason to let their bodies rest and repair after a long season of racing. They completely stop riding their bikes, totally cold turkey for 2-3-4 months. They wind up losing their base fitness and need to get it back. Lots of recreational riders don't do that and therefore their base endurance is pretty constant. It is my opinion that as a result, strength training is what will benefit most recreational cyclists.

    Anyways, there's a number of mtb-specific training programs out there. Bike James is a good start/great resource. And then there's Lee Likes Bikes with his "Pump up the Base" and "Prepare to Pin It" books.
     
    #34 -   Oct 22, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  35. Pegboy

    Pegboy Turbo Monkey

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    My advice would be to find a very knowledgeable trainer/strength and conditioning coach and have them set up a program for you. It may cost some money but you only really need a few hours to be taught proper technique and variety of exercises. There is some real BS advice being tossed around in here so seek out someone who knows what they are talking about.

    Strength will always be an advantage. Period. I also believe, that in this type of sport, the strength to body weight ratio is a big deal. The stronger your muscles are, the longer it will take to fatigue them which means greater endurance. There is a difference between Iron Man endurance and endurance for "sprint" events like DH MTB and or DH Skiing..both of which benefit from similar training routines.
     
  36. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    I'm not opposing them. I may not have been precise enough. By strength training I mean what most people mean by it. Go 3 times to the gym and do the same training guys who want to get big and strong do (isolated muscle group exercises for example). As you see I've also mentioned functional training as you mention functional strength. A lot of lifting excercises do great stuff for your core. The stuff I'd avoid are isolated muscle excercises. Also I think people mistake cardio endurance and muscular endurance and hence the misunderstanding.


    You are also 100% about x-fit. It's fashionable now so there are a ton of crappy gyms. A proper gym should have intro seminars.

    Bikejames is a great source. If I remember right Rhynopowergym offered online courses (they aren't free though).



    @Acair if you lost weight in any training that mean you ate to little. Pure and simple. Whole grain pasta is good but you need to mix it up with meat/chicken or fish because that has more protein. Never forget veggies too. I don't know the proper english term but a blunt translation of what my trainer claims is you don't want to acidify your body and veggies help to prevent that.


    Sorry but that's not true. Look at MMA. It's a similar type of an effort. 3x 5 minutes at max and the heavier the weight class the more guys have cardio problems. That happens because your hart has to pump oxygen to all those muscle. The more there is of it the more oxygen they need.

    Also again - Graves lost a lot of weight on purpose when he came from 4x to DH. That should be a good indicator that muscle != endurance since he is rather quite fit.
     
    #36 -   Oct 22, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  37. slyfink

    slyfink Turbo Monkey

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    Also, since some people are talking nutrition, I thought I'd throw this in the mix: http://www.amazon.ca/Whole-Foods-Thrive-Nutrient-Dense-Plant-Based/dp/0143176900/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

    My wife recently bought it looking for more vegetarian options that taste good. None of that hippy dippy pseudo-oriental stuff. (If I want oriental food, I'll eat oriental food, not some westernized, sanitized half-arsed version of it).

    I was skeptical at first, but as I read the intro I realized this guy is a triathlete and has written other books specifically on sports nutrition. As I alluded to before, I consider myself a recreational sports enthusiast, not an amateur athlete. But I find that fuelling the body for active living isn't easy these days. This book has some pretty solid ideas, and a good base to build on. He's vegetarian (maybe even vegan, not sure) but that doesn't mean I have to be. I like how he approaches the fuelling up for every day activity.

    I'm recommending it as a good place to start getting information about nutrition for active living. Maybe look into his other books, they may be more focussed on eating while training, not sure. But I thought it was clear, concise and the recipes are easy and tasty.
     
    #37 -   Oct 22, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  38. acair422

    acair422 Monkey

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    What i was referring to by method wasn't technique, that I know. What I mean is a program, a routine, a method to working out. I understand any type of work out is better than none, but I'm more interested in what kinds of work outs people adhere to specifically. Ie: Mondays are the following lifts, reps, sets etc. Tuesdays: these lifts, reps, sets. I have no doubt that strength training is important to any sport as even golfers lift weights.
     
  39. intensified

    intensified Monkey

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    just a couple things, the nutrition is key but another topic:

    how much of a budget do you have to work with? the personal trainer and or crossfit aren't cheap.
    do you have space at home?

    craigslist is full of stuff people dont use. 5 months of crossfit vs. enough loot for a home gym?

    Also, neither is right for everyone.. Some like the group atmosphere of crossfit and some wouldn't.

    A lot of the trainers at gyms aren't that great from what i have observed. Another option could be to find a workout or work with someone to get it set up and go follow it on your own. It can be as easy or as complicated as you want to make the program.

    Mtb james program has worked for some peeps, I think its around a hundred bucks.

    I suggested earlier to look up somewhere in your area that posts the crossfit "wods" and try to follow them on your own at home or a local gym. videos all over the web on form for the more risky movements.
     
    #39 -   Oct 22, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  40. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    To be honest some links people gave you here were very good since I think you don't know where to start. Both bikejames and rhynopower can give you nice support for around 100$/year.



    btw.
    Lifting weights doesn't necessairly mean strength training. If you lift a moderately light weight a lot of times it will not increase your strength by a lot. You can do overhead squats and increase your core stability and gain little strength if you pick your weight right (or wrong depending on what you want)