[muddy beast]

So, its hit me that I've become the Japanese gultch rep. for this site...and it got me thinking, we should organize a group to bring the trails back in a more organized fashion. I'm thinking along the lines of like a "club" with a website and memberships and all that, to basically get things going on the trails, and starting back up with the maintenanse of the trails. It wont be super easy, but I was thinking since I work at a shop, maybe I can work on a discount being a benafit of joining the club, and maybe with a few sponsors to get some swag for all the join or something.

I know some people will say, "well join BBTC"...I'm talking just one small group that focuses on one trail, not something with BBTC, but maybe a possible extension of it?

Anyhow...let me know what you think, I'm willing to put in a little time and google up on what it takes to get involved and get permision to do it...I just want to see who would help, and maybe pay for a membership to get us going (like $20-$50 to join?).

P.S. Yes, I know I spelt politics wrong in the poll.

 

[Borneo]

Might be worth while to even see if it's worth putting something together. Get in touch with Chris Chase as he was the one that spearheaded putting all the XC stuff in over the years up until about 3-4 years ago and knows in depth the details of the politics around there. (Chris used to have the bike shop in Lake Stevens and then in Mukilteo.) I have his card around some place.

Personally, I'm indifferent about the place as it's not technically legal and I rarely ride there anymore. (Too far for after work and not worth it on the weekends when I have other stuff closer.)

I think it's worth it overall though and I applaud you trying to do something.

I reference to the other thread. It sounds like the first thing you need to do is unite the various builders, etc. The rider that brought this to my attention (I have not seen the trail as of late in question.) will have no problem tearing out stuff that bothers him that is built in existing XC trails. They feel, (And, sorry, I do too) that if a XC trail is built and being used and someone re-configures it into a DH/FR trail, the original builder has all the right to tear it down and return it to it's original state. And, so the pissing match begins...

I know I do not like it at all when people "modify, fix, enhance" pick your term a trail that I have built. And, in the same fashion, I don't mess with trails that other people have built from scratch. It soinds like the Gultch is the wild west of building where everyone has thier own agenda and screw anyone who gets in their way. NO matter whay style they like to build and ride.

Getting these groups together and united will be your first goal. Otherwise, you'll have more problems down the road with each other.

Good luck. I say, give it a shot.

 

[muddy beast]

Borneo...I think your thinking the same way I'am (for the most part), and the problem is...that it is a very gun'ho trail, the people with bigger guns win...simple as that. And you better believe, that if the guys I know who build most of the stunts back there find anyone touching their crap, they'll take you out. And its unfortunate we have to fight like this, we should all just meet and come to an agreement on useage of the trails.

P.S. Off the record, I do still think that regardless of what trail was previously there, if its a minor 5 ft or so that we use (the freeriders), you guys (the XC'ers) need to find a new way around...its not that difficult, but finding good land for an eight pack thats 5ft wide, but 100ft long, is alot harder.

 

[Skookum]

Borneo...I think your thinking the same way I'am (for the most part), and the problem is...that it is a very gun'ho trail, the people with bigger guns win...simple as that. And you better believe, that if the guys I know who build most of the stunts back there find anyone touching their crap, they'll take you out. And its unfortunate we have to fight like this, we should all just meet and come to an agreement on useage of the trails.

This just sounds like the beginning of the end of riding back there, if they get people fighting over stuff. Guaranteed... this isn't the wild west...

 

[Borneo]

Sad.....

I'll tell you what, if they ran an 8 pack down the middle of an established trail (XC or AM) that I built and expected me to "just build again around it" I'd make sure that they wouldn't be coming back in some way.

I don't give a damn who the hell they are. Without respecting those who have been there before you it all just spirals into a waste of time.
Take me out? Right.....

Just sad....

As I said, I hope it works out but I see a mess ahead....

 

[muddy beast]

riding has been back there since before I was born (I know this because one of my co-workers rode there). So their is no way the trails are just going to go away, unless a road gets put up threw there.

I mean, I know guys who have rebuilt the same pack of jumps 3 times only to have them torn down everytime (quite litterally the next day). And they still arnt stopping, this winter is build season...and you better believe we're working.

EDIT: I just dont think everyones seeing from one anothers point of view. Like I've been saying, and I'm sure you can agree, dirt jump area is hard to come by...and I can understand that if you built a trail and it gets torn down that you'd be mad (we do too), but whats the problem with simply moving a few feet of it? Thats what I dont understand...so please clarify.

 

[bent^biker]

yay, thanks for pissing people off scott.

Borneo, those of us not so new to the trail building/bike politics scene agree with you. If you build the trail then people shouldn't come and screw with it without asking you. Any building I do will not require xc-riders to "re-route" their trails. Should a line interfere there will be a ride-around line built in with the stunt.

bottom line(s):
-its not wort forming any sort of organization because its not even technically legal to build.
-don't tear it down unless you build it
-consider other users when building

last but not least
-don't be an arrogant asshat

 

[bockner]

I wonder if there is this much conflict in the cyclo-cross community

 

[Borneo]

I'll give you my perspective and then drop it. This could go on forever.

"Forcing" the original builder or users of said trail to just move to the side is beyond uncool. They have precedence on the trail and this fundimental rule has to be heeded to. No matter who built it and what usage it has. Otherwise, it's always mayhem. It's happened over and over again and usually doesn't end well.

If you want to build a jump line on an existing trail. Put it off to the side of the already packed down tread. That would be awesome.

The previous users will look at the new trail modifyers as "lazy SOBs" because they are using an existing line that someone else worked hard on to build their line. Why should the existing users have to move? It is a big deal and it's disrespectful. Maybe post a sign before you think about doing this and ask it if it would be ok or let people know a couple weeks in advance that you plan on doing this. The same thing goes for the idiots out there who dumb down trails by cutting out logs and trees. But that is a whole 'nuther beat to death thread. Communication is key.
If you want to keep conversing about it I'd be happy to off line. PM me or e-mail me.

And, get Justin (Juice) or Jon out there to look at stuff and give you thier 2 cents about organizing. They are already seasoned vets and can really help you.

But, it sounds like your problem is the anarchists. Without them in the fold, you'll probably have problems all along. What if they suddenly want to redo one of your lines? Do you just tuck tail and walk away? No one wants to start packing heat with a McLeod.

 

[muddy beast]

alright, alright...I see your point now. I was just thinking...well never mind. Point being I do completely agree with you on the whole, you build it then only you can tear it down. I suppose I was trying to see if compramises are possible with the XC'ers, as in my opinion, its not a big deal to move an XC trail, but w/e I guess.

 

[muddy beast]

yay, thanks for pissing people off scott.

Oh and Stephen...I was simply saying things the way the other guys are going to view things...dont hate.

Lets remember who showed you that DJ spot.

 

[bent^biker]

I wonder if there is this much conflict in the cyclo-cross community

no, but this is a particularly sensative subject with roadies

 

[muddy beast]

well back to the subject.

is no one interested in forming a small group to do regular work on the trails? (Yes, I mean trails...not jumps, after all...I grew up riding that single track)

 

[Borneo]

Jumps, trails, it's all the same thing. You already have several groups working out there. It's probably easier to align those groups of people who already have an interest than trying to recruit here. Add the trail runners from Boeing, the neighbors, etc and try to be as inclusive as possible and see what happens. Post a meeting out on the trails someplace local and see who shows. Please, contact Justin and Jon and get their honest personal opinion. They will be a big help to introduce you to the ugliness that is trail access and the incredible wall of apathy in the mtb community that you will have to climb over. If I lived closer, I'd definately help. But, I have lots more proverbial fish to fry in my neck of the woods. I can get you lots of 4x4s for stringers if you want so that is my paltry contribution if you will.

But, I have to give you credit for trying.

 

[Sam B]

Linked like a mutha F'n chain YO!


Yeah... so check it.

 

[Eren]

Oh and Stephen...I was simply saying things the way the other guys are going to view things...dont hate.

Lets remember who showed you that DJ spot.

scott, me and stephen knew about that long beofre you showed us, dan use to ride back there all the time and told us, quit being gay and realize if you want your OWN lines, build your OWN god damn trail instead of taking over someones elses, the only people ive seen back there are XCers, so by taking over there trail is when your problems just begin

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

This brings back memories of sorts. Back when we first started cutting the SST flowpark, we got all kinds of guff from outsiders, etc. We did nothing to alter the main xc line that went through there and I'm pretty sure that's why nothing got torn out. Boy, did I get a lot of sh*t from people when I tore out the big hip that was briefly there at the end of the line that totally conflicted w/ the original xc line. Other than that, I've had to re-do a couple jumps because somebody dumbed-down something so they could ride it...that's something people need to not do at all. Progress up to something if you can't ride it like it is.

Anyway, good luck up there - hope it doesn't become some turf-war thing where everybody's packing heat just in case. That, IMHO, is not what mountain biking at ANY level is about.

 

[muddy beast]

Linked like a mutha F'n chain YO!


Yeah... so check it.

you should post a link of this to there...I think everyone has a valid arguement.

 

[muddy beast]

scott, me and stephen knew about that long beofre you showed us, dan use to ride back there all the time and told us, quit being gay and realize if you want your OWN lines, build your OWN god damn trail instead of taking over someones elses, the only people ive seen back there are XCers, so by taking over there trail is when your problems just begin

If you knew about it, then why did you need me to show you where it was?

back to the point...the reason why I made this thread was to get everyones point of view, which seems to have started, and that good! It may look like arguements are going around (well...are going around) but its part of a process to open one anothers views. Like how now I "get it" as far as the XC trails, my mind just wasnt in the right place...

This thread is a part of the process to resolve the trails them selves.

So are people willing to help? Or should we just stick to the everyman for themselves mentality? Because like it or not...if we dont form something, it IS everyman for themselves.

 

[juice]

I know some people will say, "well join BBTC"...I'm talking just one small group that focuses on one trail, not something with BBTC, but maybe a possible extension of it?

This is a great way to go. All trail building and advocacy is local, its the only way it works. BBTC's real value is in being a tool for communication, a fiscal sponsor with our 501(c)(3), extending our insurance, helping with grants, contacts, political clout, technical advice, our trail work calendar to get people out to work parties, etc. The future is in small, local ad-hoc groups who unite under the umbrella of a larger group that can do all the behind the scenes administrative crap this is always necessary.

Even if you all don't see eye to eye, its good to see an open dialogue like this. We don't need to agree, but we do need to unite.

Justin
BBTC

 

[muddy beast]

Even if you all don't see eye to eye, its good to see an open dialogue like this. We don't need to agree, but we do need to unite.

Justin
BBTC

Exactly why I started this thread. I may not be on the same page as some other people, but I'd like to see how everyone else views things so I can better understand.

Anyhow, I still want to start a small group, I think its possible, but its a matter of who will join? Not to mention, we need some way of communicating, I personally think a website or something along thoughs line would help alot...but that takes money.

 

[dylanfreeride]

ive been working on these new freeride lines... i think an easy solution to all this bull is that... we will leave your XC trails alone if u leave our FR lines alone! anyway... the only work we have done has been to trails that WE have specifically cut to be freeride trails!

-we have, and will leave your xc trails alone! (i cant say this for all builders... but if i am a part of it... i will stick to my word)

 

[dylanfreeride]

haha... other than that... i think a group is a great idea!