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AAAH! FBI entrapification!!

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
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Recent failed bombage.

More terrorist fail.

I'm sure Desmondo will enlighten us as to how the fearmongering illuminati in the dark room smoking cigarettes are entrapping poor innocent Muslims who just wanna blow stuff up for Allah into these plots as theater to keep us all so deathly afraid.

But there's been a lot of this going about lately, with frankly little fanfare. There are terrorism conspiracy arrests that don't even dent the national news. I sort of see that as a positive step, in that they're dealing with these guys...who are generally not exactly masterminds, just ****ed-up wannabees...like common criminals and not actually trumpeting from the roof how we should all be scared ****less cowering at home about them.


Edit: this passage is pure gold, though: ""Mohamud's attempt is neither representative nor an example of Somalis. Somalis are peace loving people," said Omaar, whose government is holed up in a few blocks of the capital, Mogadishu, while much of the country's southern and central regions are ruled by Islamist insurgents."
 
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Secret Squirrel

There is no Justice!
Dec 21, 2004
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Up sh*t creek, without a paddle
Edit: this passage is pure gold, though: ""Mohamud's attempt is neither representative nor an example of Somalis. Somalis are peace loving people," said Omaar, whose government is holed up in a few blocks of the capital, Mogadishu, while much of the country's southern and central regions are ruled by Islamist insurgents."
Adid f*cked that place up good...strife sux.
 

valve bouncer

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Feb 11, 2002
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Najibullah Quraishi won a Rory Peck award for this feature and it has a few "funny" moments. Don't seem like the sharpest knives in the drawer.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
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And THESE are the 'pros' who the amateurs are trying to imitate, mind you...

It's a fine line between laughing at them and remembering despite the amusing failures, the successes are also many.

Plus, well, putting a camera behind certain US operations would yield similar humor. Other times, not...same as with AQ or any other fighters...

Supposedly there's some new brit indie film coming out about bumbling AQ bombers.
 

DaveW

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Jul 2, 2001
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Supposedly there's some new brit indie film coming out about bumbling AQ bombers.
Been out for awhile.... "4 lions" hysterically funny in a way only the brits can do, and at the same time a rather pointed and semi accurate portrayal of how f*cked up the actions and behaviour/mindset of both sides of the conflict can be.

After seeing it I'd been thinking of recommending it to you mike. :thumb:





*final edit* damn yoootoobe won't embed properly, given up on playing with it so here's the trailer link;

http://www.youtube.com/v/yGk2TojOd-4
 
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jonKranked

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Nov 10, 2005
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entrapment was the first thing i thought about when i heard this news. i mean yea, they got somebody who was obviously nutty enough to want to kill lots of innocent people, but where do we draw the line?
 

Pesqueeb

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entrapment was the first thing i thought about when i heard this news. i mean yea, they got somebody who was obviously nutty enough to want to kill lots of innocent people, but where do we draw the line?
Is this really anything more than an overly angsty kid with a skewed cultural/religious background on what’s acceptable and normal? All this guy had was an abundance of rage until the feds started coaching/leading him a long, and at 15-19 who isn’t at least a little angry at the world? I realize there is no way to know for sure but how far do you think this disconnected little weirdo have actually gotten if left to his own devices?
 

JohnE

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May 13, 2005
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Front Range, dude...
All 15 year olds are angry at the world for something...but angry enough to be talked into blowing up a bunch of people at a holiday tree lighting? Please...a bit extreme if you ask me.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
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The funny thing about claiming entrapment is that it's an affirmative defense. You have to admit you did it first.

Kid's going to have his day in court, but I sincerely doubt any lawyer is likely to pull that defense off successfully. People get caught in stings all the time and always blame the cops. "Entrapment" means far more than the cops giving you the means to your end, or failing to give you counseling to overcome your poor upbringing when they realize your tragic backstory; it means inducing the behavior.

His best bet along those lines, IMHO, would be to work on the angle of "I wanted to go overseas and fight against imperialist invaders, but the FBI told me I'd be better off staying at home where there are lots of nice, soft targets." Long shot in any case, and even if the FBI really did suggest it, suggestion is a far cry from induction. From the complaint, sounds like the agents were really careful to offer him open options and let him take it where he chose. I'm sure his lawyer will claim the complaint doesn't accurately reflect what the FBI said.

If he's guilty, it's a real ****ing shame the death penalty isn't an option.
 
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Pesqueeb

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Give me a ****ing break.



Angry at the world? Grow some hair and listen to Black Flag.

Here's the complaint, btw:

http://www.justice.gov/usao/or/Indictments/11262010_Complaint.pdf
All 15 year olds are angry at the world for something...but angry enough to be talked into blowing up a bunch of people at a holiday tree lighting? Please...a bit extreme if you ask me.
Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold disagree. I'm going to channel my inner silver here and say that if this kid was white, and didn't happen to be a muslim, we'd be talking about him the same way the a fore mentioned two get talked about. Just a disturbed kid who got picked on too much and who didn't have an outlet for his anger.

Listen, I'm not trying to absolve this guy of any thing. He clearly had the will to do something abhorrent. But wanting to do something isn't actually a crime until you follow through or take physical step twoards completing something. My point, is was this nutjob capable of doing anything other than sitting around having carbomb-jerkoff fantasies until he got outside help from the feds? Because it doesn't sound like (based on the little I've read) any actual terror groups were giving him the time of day.
 
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MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
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You think I have sympathy for the Columbine killers, too?

WTF?

That is, however, very Silver of you. I mean, he thinks "we" don't think McVeigh was a real terrorist either, no matter how many times it's pointed out that 1) everyone does and 2) he got a lethal injection, despite being protected by this shield of whiteness Silver sees on everything.

By the way, 18 years old makes an adult.
 
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KavuRider

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Jan 30, 2006
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I love this line from the first article:
"It's a conversation that's definitely going on in the community," said Imam Johari Abdul-Malik, spokesman for Dar Al-Hijrah mosque in Falls Church. "At the same time, though, if you're dumb enough and sick enough to think you're working for al-Qaeda, then maybe your behind should be put in jail. If what the authorities accuse him of turns out to be true, I have very little sympathy for someone who plans something like that."
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
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ething abhorrent. But wanting to do something isn't actually a crime until you follow through or take physical step twoards completing something. My point, is was this nutjob capable of doing anything other than sitting around having carbomb-jerkoff fantasies until he got outside help from the feds? Because it doesn't sound like (based on the little I've read) any actual terror groups were giving him the time of day.
So he would never, say, have gotten got up the nerve to drive a car into a crowded pedestrian shopping area during the height of Xmas shopping to kill as many infidel capitalists as possible? Or gotten a gun and started shooting kids at a school? You don't exactly need AQ's best support or finest training to pull that off.

You're pretty glibly dismissing a person with a very strong desire to commit mass murder. So they built him a fake bomb...how else would you allow someone to go through with committing a terrorist act without endangering the public??


On another track, these stings are likely going to guarantee that the future of domestic terrorist acts is individuals or tiny groups of 2-3 people committing violent acts that don't require a lot of preparation or exposure beforehand.
 

Silver

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You think I have sympathy for the Columbine killers, too?

WTF?

That is, however, very Silver of you. I mean, he thinks "we" don't think McVeigh was a real terrorist either, no matter how many times it's pointed out that 1) everyone does and 2) he got a lethal injection, despite being protected by this shield of whiteness Silver sees on everything.

By the way, 18 years old makes an adult.
When the calls come out for profiling (like the Israelis do!) they never seem to include angry white ex-military. Why is that?

We still have people who can't conceive that the KKK used to be a bona fide terrorist organization. They were just people proud of their heritage who got a little carried away, that's all...
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
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When the calls come out for profiling (like the Israelis do!) they never seem to include stupid white ex-military. Why is that?

We still have people who can't conceive that the KKK used to be a bona fide terrorist organization. They were just people proud of their heritage who got a little carried away, that's all...
Yeah, and we've got people who think the Black Panthers were heroes, too. I wouldn't think either of these views represents a major portion of America, and sadly enough, a lot of America's probably too ignorant to even know who one or the other were.

And yeah, profiling is based on finding the most likely suspect. Just because McVeigh was a terrorist doesn't mean he's representative of most terrorists. Lots more Muslim males are committing terrorist acts around the world than white ex-military. One tier down would be your Muslim women, who also have a terrorist profile. This, of course, exposes one of the weaknesses of profiling vs. comprehensive screening. Which in turn has its own multiplicity of drawbacks.
 

Pesqueeb

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You think I have sympathy for the Columbine killers, too?

WTF?
<snip>

By the way, 18 years old makes an adult.
No, that&#8217;s not at all what I'm saying. What I am saying is, what&#8217;s the difference, really between them and this guy? Nothing, except for a little difference in religion. The implication you make that somehow age of the perps here makes a difference is astonishing. "Oh those crazy columbine kids! Oh well, boys will be boys." I&#8217;m sure its very comforting to the parents of the victims that their kids were killed by other kids, and not someone who was old enough to vote, cause that would be just awful. :rolleyes:
The Columbine killers built and placed "bombs" that were as amazingly successful as the Times Square bomber's, which is to say they didn't work. I would hazard the guess that the only reason Harris and Klebold didn't build themselves a car bomb is they simply didn't think of it.

So he would never, say, have gotten got up the nerve to drive a car into a crowded pedestrian shopping area during the height of Xmas shopping to kill as many infidel capitalists as possible? Or gotten a gun and started shooting kids at a school? You don't exactly need AQ's best support or finest training to pull that off.

You're pretty glibly dismissing a person with a very strong desire to commit mass murder. So they built him a fake bomb...how else would you allow someone to go through with committing a terrorist act without endangering the public??


On another track, these stings are likely going to guarantee that the future of domestic terrorist acts is individuals or tiny groups of 2-3 people committing violent acts that don't require a lot of preparation or exposure beforehand.
In an earlier post I said I thought he had the will to do exactly that. My question was, would he have been able to pull it off all by himself? I have doubts about that. Sure, its been demonstrated time and again that any nutjob can buy themselves a gun and go on a shooting spree and not much can be done to prevent that. When a white guy does it we call him "disturbed" and use the word "tragedy" a lot. When a brown skin with a religion that doesn't have teh Jeebus does it we call it "terrorism" and we try to set fire to places of worship. The hypocrisy is what I'm trying to get at here.
In the end though, what this is about is nothing more than a total softball being tossed the way of the feds, and then when they hit it out of the park they can claim they are winning the so called "war on teh terrorz!". I feel safer already.
 
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Silver

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And yeah, profiling is based on finding the most likely suspect. Just because McVeigh was a terrorist doesn't mean he's representative of most terrorists. Lots more Muslim males are committing terrorist acts around the world than white ex-military. One tier down would be your Muslim women, who also have a terrorist profile. This, of course, exposes one of the weaknesses of profiling vs. comprehensive screening. Which in turn has its own multiplicity of drawbacks.
There are lots more Muslim males in the world then there are angry white ex-military. We might need to look at the percentages before we make that determination. Now, if you're counting bombings in Iraq and Afghanistan against US troops as terrorism, I get to count the Hellfire-enhanced wedding parties, bungled raids, and torture that US forces engage in as well.

My god, we should be profiling active duty military as well.
 

boostindoubles

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To me it reads like the government found some pissed off foreign-born American citizens and gave them all the trappings to be a terrorist, where before they were only pissed off American citizens. Then the government takes down the 'terrorist' and makes the news as terror attack thwarted. Why not confront these people in the beginning and counsel them about their grievances - rather than set them up for a big fall that was planned from the get-go.

It seems counter-productive, that operations like this are carried out. Not to mention the fall-out from other American Citizens who react without thinking or knowing the facts.

Some person, so angered by the FBI crafted terrorist, set fire to an Islamic mosque. Who's the real terrorist here?
 

Silver

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To me it reads like the government found some pissed off foreign-born American citizens and gave them all the trappings to be a terrorist, where before they were only pissed off American citizens. Then the government takes down the 'terrorist' and makes the news as terror attack thwarted. Why not confront these people in the beginning and counsel them about their grievances - rather than set them up for a big fall that was planned from the get-go.

It seems counter-productive, that operations like this are carried out. Not to mention the fall-out from other American Citizens who react without thinking or knowing the facts.

Some person, so angered by the FBI crafted terrorist, set fire to an Islamic mosque. Who's the real terrorist here?
To be fair, I'm pissed off at the American government. I think that the US president is a war criminal. I'm still not tagging along if some guy says, "Hey, lets go blow up xyz to show those stupid fat Americans what it's all about, man!"

This is quite interesting:

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/11/28/fbi/index.html

Second, in order not to be found to have entrapped someone into committing a crime, law enforcement agents want to be able to prove that, in the 1992 words of the Supreme Court, the accused was "was independently predisposed to commit the crime for which he was arrested." To prove that, undercover agents are often careful to stress that the accused has multiple choices, and they then induce him into choosing with his own volition to commit the crime. In this case, that was achieved by the undercover FBI agent's allegedly advising Mohamud that there were at least five ways he could serve the cause of Islam (including by praying, studying engineering, raising funds to send overseas, or becoming "operational"), and Mohamud replied he wanted to "be operational" by using exploding a bomb (para. 35-37).

But strangely, while all other conversations with Mohamud which the FBI summarizes were (according to the affidavit) recorded by numerous recording devices, this conversation -- the crucial one for negating Mohamud's entrapment defense -- was not. That's because, according to the FBI, the undercover agent "was equipped with audio equipment to record the meeting. However, due to technical problems, the meeting was not recorded" (para. 37).


Funny how that seems to happen...that damn equipment has problems at the WORST times.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
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Why not confront these people in the beginning and counsel them about their grievances - rather than set them up for a big fall that was planned from the get-go.
:rofl:


In an earlier post I said I thought he had the will to do exactly that. My question was, would he have been able to pull it off all by himself? I
Yeah, getting an automobile and running people over was totally out of his reach. Unthinkable that the man might have stabbed someone. In any case, not a calculus the law enforcement community has to make.

And in order to take any legal action against him, the man has to have broken the law. So instead of letting him actually kill anyone, they let him break it without putting anyone in danger. Seeing that as unreasonable just blows my ****ing mind.
 
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MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
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Silver, the Salon article brings me back to one point I tried to bring up myself here earlier and seem to have fallen into ignoring...he is certainly innocent until proven guilty (see my post #11). But entrapment, which seems the likely defense, again is predicated on the fact that you committed the crime in the first place.

However, just because a criminal is an easy catch for law enforcement or a pathetic figure in general doesn't mean he's not a criminal, either.
 

Silver

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No, definitely not.

I just find it funny that the cameras or the recorders never seem to work at the most inopportune moments. It's almost like it happens on purpose sometimes...
 

Pesqueeb

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Yeah, getting an automobile and running people over was totally out of his reach. Unthinkable that the man might have stabbed someone. In any case, not a calculus the law enforcement community has to make.
.
Exactly. But he didn't have the stones to do that did he? He wasn't committed enough to make himself a martyr and go up with what he thought was a bomb laden van, hence the cell-phone (non) detonator. This kid was way more cowardly than the average suicide bomber, because it takes conviction, and a fair piece of explosives know how to pull a stunt like that. Neither of which he has so far been shown to have IMHO. It took a federal setup of this dipsh*t to supply him with "know how" and an escape. I still fail to see how without his federally supplied "help", this moron is anything other than a really angry guy with a major chip on his shoulder and delusions jihadic grandeur. I stand by my earlier statement, this kid was an easy patsy to put up on the pedestal of public paranoia for the benefit of the continuing illusion of "safety".
 

boostindoubles

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And in order to take any legal action against him, the man has to have broken the law. So instead of letting him actually kill anyone, they let him break it without putting anyone in danger. Seeing that as unreasonable just blows my ****ing mind.
The way these scenarios are being orchestrated blows my mind! The fact that it came down to the 'buzzer' and then found itself a media-storm only solidifies my thoughts. They need to find a different way to handle these quacks. Inciting angry, confused Americans with spun headlines is not good for business. It just adds to the confusion
 

DaveW

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The way these scenarios are being orchestrated blows my mind! The fact that it came down to the 'buzzer' and then found itself a media-storm only solidifies my thoughts. They need to find a different way to handle these quacks. Inciting angry, confused Americans with spun headlines is not good for business. It just adds to the confusion


For the news corporations it's VERY good for business.....
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
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Exactly. But he didn't have the stones to do that did he?
You know that how, exactly? I guess from a vantage point of being a contrarian and having seen him easily taken down by the FBI, it must seem rather obvious to you now. You don't know what he might have done on his own, given time. None of us can, but with a wannabe mass murderer, we should err on the side of public safety and against the murderer. This means an investigation.

And investigations can't operate by "Well, maybe he won't act on the desires he's expressed to mass-murder Americans. Let's hope he doesn't, becuase he really seems like kind of a loser."

Instead, they sent him an email in response to his inquiry and asked if he wanted to be involved in jihad. He said yes. Then they asked him how much he wanted to be involved. When he said, "I want to kill people," they said, "Are you sure? You don't have to." He said yes, and wanted to use a bomb. So they built him one and let him do his thing. They even let him punch the number twice to make sure he was really committed, and he didn't come around with relief after the "bomb" didn't function, wondering how he could have possibly thought that was a good idea. He then punched the number in again.

People who seek out illegal activities, or partners in illegal activity, and find the cops may be occasionally pathetic, but that's no defense.

And had he actually committed an act of mass violence after the FBI blew him off, there'd be a file sitting somewhere saying he had expressed a desire to bomb American kids, but that they didn't think he'd REALLY do it because he seems like a douche. You'd then be calling them lazy and incompetent, wondering why they were running around denying you your freedoms instead of chasing real terrorists bent on killing people. Like this guy.

(According to the complaint and indictment, mind you--nothing has been proven in court, and I'm playing devil's advocate here and arguing about a larger picture of how LE should play a role. It is surely possible that he was entrapped, or that even if he wasn't, he'll convince a jury that he was.)

Boostindoubles, your post doesn't make much sense to me. He wasn't incited with headlines. Or are you saying other would-be terrorists will be incited with headlines? Or are just desperate to find seats on the "**** the FBI for catching a would-be bomber, because that seems hip!" bandwagon?

Either way, while the man may need counseling for his own benefit, he also needs to be arrested and put away for everyone else's. (Again, assuming guilt here for the sake of this argument, which is not proven.)
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
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Wait, so you're saying the FBI has a bigger dick than it thinks it has?


Anyhow, maybe it's because I'm not getting US sources of news, then...?

My point in the beginning was that while these cases were in the news, they weren't being trumpeted from the rooftops as anything more than they were--somewhat bumbling criminals caught by the FBI, and not some sort of fearmongering media machine. I mean, big stories in the way a thwarted bank robbery might be a big story for a day in a newspaper, with some drama and some white-hatted heroes, but nothing more.

Is this not what people Stateside are getting?
 

valve bouncer

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I saw it on the BBC and it was in the Australian papers so I guess it was a big story. Big catch syndrome is hardly unique to the FBI, the TSA suffer from a particularly acute case.
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
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The TSA's caught someone??

And if it was in the papers, OK, it's a dramatic story...but is it continuing beyond its reasonable media life?
 

Pesqueeb

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Wait, so you're saying the FBI has a bigger dick than it thinks it has?


Anyhow, maybe it's because I'm not getting US sources of news, then...?

My point in the beginning was that while these cases were in the news, they weren't being trumpeted from the rooftops as anything more than they were--somewhat bumbling criminals caught by the FBI, and not some sort of fearmongering media machine. I mean, big stories in the way a thwarted bank robbery might be a big story for a day in a newspaper, with some drama and some white-hatted heroes, but nothing more.

Is this not what people Stateside are getting?
This might be the source of our issue. What I've read on this would make it seem like this portland guy was a criminal master mind and catching him was a major coup for the FBI. The case I've been trying to make is that he is a bumbling criminal and that it is being used to feed the fearmongering media machine for days on end. IMHO its being blown WAY out of poportion.
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
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The TSA's caught someone??

And if it was in the papers, OK, it's a dramatic story...but is it continuing beyond its reasonable media life?
Next time you fly, channel your rebellious side and don't put your 3.4oz of liquids in a little bag for them, just have it spread throughout your bag. Then count how many flights you take before someone notices. I'm up to 11 and still going. The only way their stupid little fishing expeditions will stop is enough people stop co-operating with them.
 

Pesqueeb

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Next time you fly, channel your rebellious side and don't put your 3.4oz of liquids in a little bag for them, just have it spread throughout your bag. Then count how many flights you take before someone notices. I'm up to 11 and still going. The only way their stupid little fishing expeditions will stop is enough people stop co-operating with them.
:clapping: Must spread rep.
 

boostindoubles

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Boostindoubles, your post doesn't make much sense to me. He wasn't incited with headlines. Or are you saying other would-be terrorists will be incited with headlines? Or are just desperate to find seats on the "**** the FBI for catching a would-be bomber, because that seems hip!" bandwagon?

Either way, while the man may need counseling for his own benefit, he also needs to be arrested and put away for everyone else's. (Again, assuming guilt here for the sake of this argument, which is not proven.)
I think its pretty clear that some dude set fire to a Mosque in Corvallis after learning about this incident. I can't help but think all the spun and mis-leading headlines, which spread like wild-fire, helped our Angry fellow American to come to his fiery conclusion. The truth of this situation is that a terrorist WAS incited to violence by these false headlines. He chose Arson rather than the FBI as his avenue for expression though.

What I see is the FBI orchestrating this incident. Sure, it was the kids idea... But they held the reins. Without their involvement this kid is simply that, an angry kid. So why was the press allowed to take the story and spin and run? It makes no sense!
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
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This might be the source of our issue. What I've read on this would make it seem like this portland guy was a criminal master mind and catching him was a major coup for the FBI. The case I've been trying to make is that he is a bumbling criminal and that it is being used to feed the fearmongering media machine for days on end. IMHO its being blown WAY out of poportion.
You didn't read my first post, then...

None of the articles I read seemed over the top.

I think its pretty clear that some dude set fire to a Mosque in Corvallis after learning about this incident. I can't help but think all the spun and mis-leading headlines, which spread like wild-fire, helped our Angry fellow American to come to his fiery conclusion. The truth of this situation is that a terrorist WAS incited to violence by these false headlines. He chose Arson rather than the FBI as his avenue for expression though.

What I see is the FBI orchestrating this incident. Sure, it was the kids idea... But they held the reins. Without their involvement this kid is simply that, an angry kid. So why was the press allowed to take the story and spin and run? It makes no sense!
So, ****ing prosecute the arsonist, too. Apply one of the [legally-speaking] bull**** hate-crime laws if it applies, too. Hell, call him a terrorist in the media. He could be defined as one. I'd call him a hatemonger, though, myself.

Criminal investigations aren't driven by what some dip**** white-trash moron might do in response to the resulting charges. And if you think they should be, imagine what the toothless ****heel would have done in response to our poor Somali-born teenager actually killing some Americans on his own.
 

boostindoubles

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I don't think potential media fall-out should dictate what happens in police situations. But for god sakes if this hows it going to be for awhile, we might as well try to bring the feds out of debt a bit. It could be a blend of COPS and one of those make-over shows. Find angry kids and then groom them for terrorist acts. Put the whole process in the media rather than only the dramatic story-book ending.

My 'issue' with these events is more how they were handled in the media. It's not a surprise by any means, that the media would distort something, but its totally out of hand. Smear-n-fear all the way.
 
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