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Abortion: Fetuses feel no pain until 3rd Trimester

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
9,890
4
Hypernormality
Oh, Intersting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/health/23cnd-fetus.html?hp&ex=1124856000&en=34b02a0950c494c5&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Report Finds Fetuses Feel Pain Later Than Thought

Taking on one of the most highly charged questions in the abortion debate, a team of doctors has concluded that fetuses probably cannot feel pain in the first six months of gestation and therefore do not need anesthesia during abortions.

Their report, being published Wednesday in The Journal of the American Medical Association, is based on a review of several hundred scientific papers, and it says that nerve connections in the brain are unlikely to have developed enough for the fetus to feel pain before 29 weeks.

The finding poses a direct challenge to proposed federal and state laws that would compel doctors to tell women having abortions at 20 weeks or later that their fetuses can feel pain and to offer them anesthesia specifically for the fetus.

About 1.3 million abortions a year are performed in the United States, 1.4 percent of them at 21 weeks or later.

Bills requiring that women be warned about fetal pain have been introduced in the House and Senate and in 19 states, and recently passed in Georgia, Arkansas and Minnesota. The bills are supported by many anti-abortion groups. But advocates for abortion rights say the real purpose of the measures is to discourage women from seeking abortions.

There are medical experts on opposing sides of the issue as well, and the only thing they agree on is that it is virtually impossible to tell for sure what a fetus can feel.

"This is an unknowable question," said Dr. David A. Grimes, a former head of abortion surveillance at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention who now delivers babies and also performs abortions in Chapel Hill, N.C. "All we can do in medicine is to infer." Nonetheless, he said, the new article makes a compelling case for lack of pain perception in fetuses before 29 weeks.
(Cut - See link for full article)

So how is an unconscious, un-feeling lump of cells any different to a potato, or any other vegetable for that matter? Why do anti-abortionists feel it needs special protection? If it's so wrong to kill an unconscious, un-feeling lump of cells, then what are you going to eat? What about killing animals to eat?
 

Ciaran

Fear my banana
Apr 5, 2004
9,844
11
So Cal
Long cooking times tenderize stringy tough meat. (teenagers)

Fetuses and babies are just veal that tastes like chicken.
 
E

enkidu

Guest
Ciaran said:
Long cooking times tenderize stringy tough meat. (teenagers)

Fetuses and babies are just veal that tastes like chicken.
and, well, for old folks over 50 or so. . . we'll just throw them to the wild dogs.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
5,368
160
Lima, Peru, Peru
Changleen said:
Oh, Intersting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/health/23cnd-fetus.html?hp&ex=1124856000&en=34b02a0950c494c5&ei=5094&partner=homepage

(Cut - See link for full article)

So how is an unconscious, un-feeling lump of cells any different to a potato, or any other vegetable for that matter? Why do anti-abortionists feel it needs special protection? If it's so wrong to kill an unconscious, un-feeling lump of cells, then what are you going to eat? What about killing animals to eat?

how are you any different awake and alert than when you are sleeping, when you are doped, unconsious, or passed out drunk???
wouldnt you logic make you fair game in those instances then???
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
9,890
4
Hypernormality
ALEXIS_DH said:
how are you any different awake and alert than when you are sleeping, when you are doped, unconsious, or passed out drunk???
wouldnt you logic make you fair game in those instances then???
The difference is that a Foetus has never been conscious, or ever felt anything. As a foetus it doesn't posess the ability to do so. Once it reaches a certain stage in it's development it is developed enough to feel pain, and even later to develop consciousness.
 

ALEXIS_DH

Tirelessly Awesome
Jan 30, 2003
5,368
160
Lima, Peru, Peru
Changleen said:
The difference is that a Foetus has never been conscious, or ever felt anything. As a foetus it doesn't posess the ability to do so. Once it reaches a certain stage in it's development it is developed enough to feel pain, and even later to develop consciousness.
whether it has felt before or not is irrelevant.
whether it will feel something or not IS relevant.

i think there is a present value associated with the "chance" of future outcomes. any economist would accept accept that is logical.

under that reasoning, any chunk of mankindness of any size with a reasonable chance of survival (by survival i mean attaining consciousness, or whatever you accept as life), with reasonable external assistance is worth something other than zero.

what is reasonable?? imo, anything that doesnt have to be explicitely and purposely interrupted for the process to fail.

thus a chunk of new dna with zero chance of survival (like a fertilized egg outside the womb) is fair game.

a chunk of dna 3 months in a womb, has a little more than zero chance of survival. thus, just like with person in coma with 50%-50% (or whatever arbitrary number) chance of survival, there is a non-zero value associated to that life... people dont pull the plug on people in coma with a guesstimated 20% of survival, why should you plug the play on another unconscious human with a similar chance of survival???

how much chance of success there has to be to justify non-intrusion??? i dunno, but i rather be conservative in that wager
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
9,890
4
Hypernormality
ALEXIS_DH said:
whether it has felt before or not is irrelevant.
whether it will feel something or not IS relevant.
I disagree, but I understand where you're coming from.

i think there is a present value associated with the "chance" of future outcomes. any economist would accept accept that is logical.
This is a good point, however, we must remember that we are also dealing with a Mother and her life, and the Mother IS conscious, IS feeling, has relationships, has a life, whilst the foetus has no and does not. If the outcome of having the baby is probably not good for the Mother or the baby, I have no problem with the abortion. Say, the mother is a crack addict, say the mother is a poor single mother who will not be able to support the baby properly, say the mother is too young to support the child properly, say the mother is raped. In all these situations a mother might decide that the needs of her life and the needs of a child she may have are not best served by having the baby at that time. I really don't see how you can deny her this choice. By denying her this choice, in most cases you will be bringing children into the world in a less than advantageous situation. For sure, you cannot ensure that every child has a perfect chance in life, but that's not your call to make. It's hers. Some situations are worse than others, and abortion is a valid and respectable choice in these cases.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
9,890
4
Hypernormality
Sorry, Just re-read that and it's a ****ing mess.

What I'm trying to say is that although, as you pointed out, the life of the unfeeling, unconscious foetus is not worth nothing, it is worth a hell of a lot less than the actual life of the mother, and I think it's always got to be her life and circumstances which get considered before that of the lump of not yet conscious cells in her womb, especially if these circumstances may have a negative effect on the life of the potential child.
 

Reactor

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2005
3,978
1
Chandler, AZ, USA
ALEXIS_DH said:
whether it has felt before or not is irrelevant.
whether it will feel something or not IS relevant.

Funny, George authorized 150 "retroactive" abortions as govinator of Tejas. He helped "retroactively" aborted tens of thousands of Iraqi's and about 2000 US troops.

"I am all about saving the life of Innocent feticuli, but damn! once they are born, their ass in mine!"

G.W. Bush.
 

manimal

Ociffer Tackleberry
Feb 27, 2002
7,214
14
Blindly running into cactus
ALEXIS_DH said:
whether it has felt before or not is irrelevant.
whether it will feel something or not IS relevant.

i think there is a present value associated with the "chance" of future outcomes. any economist would accept accept that is logical.

under that reasoning, any chunk of mankindness of any size with a reasonable chance of survival (by survival i mean attaining consciousness, or whatever you accept as life), with reasonable external assistance is worth something other than zero.

what is reasonable?? imo, anything that doesnt have to be explicitely and purposely interrupted for the process to fail.

thus a chunk of new dna with zero chance of survival (like a fertilized egg outside the womb) is fair game.

a chunk of dna 3 months in a womb, has a little more than zero chance of survival. thus, just like with person in coma with 50%-50% (or whatever arbitrary number) chance of survival, there is a non-zero value associated to that life... people dont pull the plug on people in coma with a guesstimated 20% of survival, why should you plug the play on another unconscious human with a similar chance of survival???

how much chance of success there has to be to justify non-intrusion??? i dunno, but i rather be conservative in that wager

i'm waiting for the sky to fall.

I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH ALEXIS DH!!! (and you said it better than i could have :thumb: )

this is a momentous occassion, kind of like when you get the kids in bed before the wife is too tired for some nookie :D :thumb:
 

manimal

Ociffer Tackleberry
Feb 27, 2002
7,214
14
Blindly running into cactus
Changleen said:
Say, the mother is a crack addict
How is that the baby's fault? Whatever happened to Human responsibility.

Changleen said:
Say the mother is a poor single mother who will not be able to support the baby properly
again.....How is that the baby's fault?

Changleen said:
say the mother is too young to support the child properly
what a great message we're sending our kids:

action--------------------------Consequence
drink/drive---------------- legal fees/loss of license/repay damages

steal ---------------------arrested/pay back debt/legal actions

drugs ------------------- law involved/court fees/rehab/legal actions

get pregnant while young----no consequence /abort baby/do-over

Changleen said:
say the mother is raped.
a very tough question, and i have no proper answer. the easy way out is to just say "suck it up and have the baby".......but that's not realistic or human. i can't imagine what would be going through the mind of a woman who has a life growing inside her, given to her by the man that raped her.
does taking a life justify the crime? hard question.

Changleen said:
.... you will be bringing children into the world in a less than advantageous situation.
since when does parenthood require an advanageous situation? if everyone waited until it was advantageous to have children, none of us would be here. kids happen, it's called life. the problem is that we've gotten away from the basic responsibility of accepting the consequences of our actions. heck, none of my kids were planned and 'lil manimal was quite the surprise as he was present at our wedding (fetus) :D
it was a hassle dealing with a kid when we were only 20.....but we took the risk for some pleasure and had to pay the price.
 

Changleen

Paranoid Member
Jan 9, 2004
9,890
4
Hypernormality
I agree with your point about lack of responsibility being a big problem with society, but I do not accept you are hurting anyone by having an abortion before the third trimester. Your points are only valid if the 'baby' (It's not a baby yet) has something of value you can remove. Since it is neither conscious, cognative or feeling, and never has been, how are you 'punishing' a lump of cells by choosing not to allow them to develop?

I agree people need to take more responsibility, but sometimes that means being responsible enough to realise now is not the best time to have a baby.

Hey, while you're here, I was arguing today with a friend. She said you (US cops) can't arrest people whilst off duty. I said you can. I'm pretty damn sure I'm right. Am I?