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Advantages/Disadvantages of a longer TT

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by demo 9, Dec 6, 2012.

  1. demo 9

    demo 9 Turbo Monkey

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    So here is a question for those of you who know bike sizing stuff. I am 5.11, and usually right between sizes. Whats the deal with TT measurements (or reach for that matter) I generally believed that you got the biggest bike you could, since it was more stable, but as the years have gone past, i have now switched to small bikes. Medium Demo 8, Large jedi (more of a medium) Small superco (with pedal/front tire overlap) and this year, a "large" (medium) zerode. I always run a short 45 stem, because each time i try something bigger, it feels too long and wacky. Next year im lookin at bikes, and i am wondering, do i get the super short bikes i like, or would it be beneficial to ride a longer TT.

    FWIW, i love my medium zerode, but i am tossing the idea of a real large around in my head since i can go either way.

    EDIT-will a longer TT improve front tire traction? I tend to ride real far back on the bike, similar to Brendog's type of posture.





     
    #1 -   Dec 6, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012

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  2. b.utters

    b.utters Monkey

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    I recently switched from a 2010 demo 8 (medium) to a yeti 303 WC (medium) and found my riding got substantially better going to a bike with a shorter top tube.

    So after this my thoughts are that a long bike might feel a little more stable at speed but a shorter top tube will allow you to place more weight on your front wheel, giving you more traction and better handling in pretty much every situation.
     
    #2 -   Dec 7, 2012
  3. NwRider

    NwRider Chimp

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    Well your first issue is that you attached your number plate to the handlebars and its not level. But in response to b.utters, isnt that backwards? shorter top tube pushes you into a more upright position, putting your weight more centered/rearward position whereas a longer top tube/reach puts you in a more crouched "attack" position with weight over the front tire. I personally prefer a longer reach, feel it allows more control and front tire traction. But in the end its just about what makes you comfortable right?
     
    #3 -   Dec 7, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2012
  4. Tomasis

    Tomasis Monkey

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    if you sit far back in rear, you're able to press the weight on front end more without changing your position thus more traction from front wheel if we talk about smaller bikes.
     
    #4 -   Dec 7, 2012
  5. norbar

    norbar Turbo Monkey

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    Shorter TT: More mobility/easier to lean back. The weight should be closer to the front wheel.

    Longer TT : more stability not only due to the wheelbase but your chest being lower which weighs a lot hence your CoG being lower. On the same time the Cog if further away from the bars and the front wheel.
     
    #5 -   Dec 7, 2012
  6. demo 9

    demo 9 Turbo Monkey

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    The reason i ask is because i want to get more traction out of the front, mainly because if u can turn ur front u can turn your back (around here) I am riding at a great level, and doing well, but i see many of my competitors riding clipped in and over the front, every time i lean over the front, i feel like im going to crash. I am way to chicken-**** to ride the front of the bike, so i was wondering if a longer TT was the secret? I am 90% happy with my riding right now, but 100% displeased that i can be beaten by people leaning forwards?

    I do very well on the raw fast wide open tracks, Windham WC, platty stuff, and a few of the more "raw" mtn creek tracks, i get killed on the tight twisty "xc like" tracks
     
    #6 -   Dec 7, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2012
  7. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Get some clicky pedals.

    They're a hell of a lot cheaper than a frame.
     
    #7 -   Dec 7, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2012
  8. demo 9

    demo 9 Turbo Monkey

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    have em-hate em

    frame happens regardless, just a matter of what way i should go
     
    #8 -   Dec 7, 2012
  9. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    A longer front end is not going to help you get over the front end. It's going to do the exact opposite.

    Stiffen up that fork and just give'r.
     
    #9 -   Dec 7, 2012
  10. no skid marks

    no skid marks Monkey

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    Agreed.
    I'm the same height(light though). Loved the small Zerode for fun, but preferred my medium. I'd not consider the large.
    Why do you want to weigh the front? Is your front tyre wandering? If your not riding often enough to dominate the front by riding aggressively, maybe try a stock headset to steepen it up until more confident.
    It could be a number of things from rear shock settings, to spring weight(front or rear), To bar width.
    Lazier or steeper headangle could help, depending on the reason you're not getting forward. If it's lack of confidence, try lazier. Are your forks as short as they can be? You could play with raising and lowering them to see if a head angle change would help, or heavier/softer rear setting. Is your sag right?
     
  11. demo 9

    demo 9 Turbo Monkey

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    I am confident, and ride a good amount, but from what i can tell, the reason i cant shave more time off, isnt because i dont have the balls to push it, its because i cant get the front to hook up, i am scared **** of the front wheel, and WONT ride it because if u are over the front, and wash out, your stuffing your face, i ride the rear and use the rear wheel to steer (similar to how you turn in a manual) so i can avoid going OTB and hurting myself. This has gotten me very far, however, i see guys like Gwin and minaar just riding as if they are on flat ground.

    I guess the situation i am displeased with is just general turns, i ride the same fork/tire/basic HA as the rest of the field, but they can turn at 20mph, and i can only turn at 18mph because at 18.5 the front washes out, the big similarity i can find is that they are clipped in and over the front, i am one of the only flat riders in the pro field at most events. I make up my time on the loose turns and the straights, but i feel i like in the corners.

    This is a turn in a recent track that i had trouble making, if i turned the wheel more in the photo, i would wash out, eveyr time-i had to go slower bcause of this.

    similar situation here


    This is the typical riding position i end up in when im ridin fast, i like to get behind the fork.
     
  12. demo 9

    demo 9 Turbo Monkey

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    blue kit at 1.06, cant really see it but i wash the front, same situation in many corners. guy ahead and behind did it fine, and they were not pushing it.
    https://vimeo.com/50658980

    no crahes, but you can see the rearward bias-almost all shots on the zerode are me
    https://vimeo.com/48340848
     
  13. no skid marks

    no skid marks Monkey

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    F#@* the Boxxers off. Get some 888s. What brakes are you running? play with front tyre pressures. So many things could help. What size bike were you faster on? All your bikes have had different geo, so it's not a clear cut answer, but still worth looking at.
     
  14. demo 9

    demo 9 Turbo Monkey

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    ^ boxxers not mine, that was a borrowed bike-im also a boxxer hater, I am fastest on the current "large" zerode, by alot, but i dont feel as good in corners that dont have a "catch" to them. I figured longer TT, means im reaching farthur, means its pulling my body forwards, making more weight on the front? Why would a shorter one be better?
     
  15. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Fast people don't ride over the front most of the time, they ride centered. Super tight turns are about the only place you really need to be truly over the front end to get your tires to bite. But slacker headangles and lower bottom brackets are all about allowing you to ride centered.....not over the front but not feeling like you need to hang your ass out over the rear either.

    A shorter bike weights the front better when you're centered.....not necessarily gets you over the front end.

    Tires are important.

    Looking at those pics of you, you're right. Get them nipples over that stem son! :D

    In the few instances where you'll truly benefit from being more over the front end, this causes your front tire to bite hard and your rear to slide a bit (talking REALLY tight turns here) and actually help you make the turn. This is most of what that little waggy rear end shlt mountain bikers call roost is from......weighting the front wheel significantly.

    Again......tires are important.
     
    #15 -   Dec 7, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2012
  16. Nick

    Nick My name is Nick

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    Practice.
    I mean, PRACTICE what you're trying to improve. My cornering got much faster* over the last two years because I was conscious of the problem, took advice from faster riders, and practiced those techniques. Sometimes I was squirrely or washed out, but when it clicks, it's good.
    Practicing does not mean riding the same way as always and expecting things to just change without your input.
    You put a lot of time and $$ into your gear etc, spend some time identifying where you could use improvement and work on that sh!t. :D

    * this does not imply that I am now "fast", only that I'm waaaay faster than I used to be.
     
  17. b.utters

    b.utters Monkey

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    Nope, with a shorter top tube I found myself more crouched over, weight centered with my elbows bent and up/out.



    rather than:





    I think it's mostly about the angle at which the force from your mass is applied i.e.:

     
  18. Nick

    Nick My name is Nick

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    Looks scientific ...


    ... sh!t just got real.
     
    #18 -   Dec 7, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2012
  19. demo 9

    demo 9 Turbo Monkey

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    ^ seems like a valid point to me (not that i have the smarts to prove it)
     
  20. b.utters

    b.utters Monkey

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    I'm terrible at physics but it kind of gets across what I'm trying to say.
     
  21. Nick

    Nick My name is Nick

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    :D

    just having fun you two.

    OP: if you have little to no weight on your fork your front tire will have little to no traction and want to deflect, push, slide, wash, etc. With some weight in the mix your tire can dig in and do what it's supposed to do, in this case get you through the turn. Practice riding centered on the bike (like Kidwoo said) get 'some' weight your front tire and practice railing turns. You won't necessarily go @ss over end, and even if you do that doesn't mean you're going to be injured. (maybe just dusty)
     
    #21 -   Dec 7, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2012
  22. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    You've had enough bikes at this point to know that what he's saying is correct.
     
  23. Jeremy R

    Jeremy R <b>x</b>

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    Those look like a couple of tables I put together from IKEA.
    Damn Chinese instructions.
     
  24. demo 9

    demo 9 Turbo Monkey

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    True but i have never gotten to ride different sizes of the same bike to rule it out. Im a numbers guy :(
     
  25. SCARY

    SCARY Not long enough

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    I need more of these green square things^^
    In your pics,your elbows are down and tucked WAY in.Thats horrible riding position.
    Try getting them up and more of a moto position.
    You're leaning back because you're on flats,that's just how you have to ride them to keep your feet on the pedals and keep them from bouncing off.

    Have you tried clips with like the minnar shoe or something equivalent ?Cuz if you tried them with an xc type shoe,it's really floaty and unstable feeling.

    It's seems that you're trying to adopt a flat pedal riding style to a clipped in riding style without making the change.

    I think your tt IS to short and you might be tucking your elbows under to prevent your COG from going over the bars.A longer frame and being clipped allows you to spread out bit more,lower your cog and maintain a more centered,aggressive position on the bike.I kinda did this transformation over the last couple years.

    My big thing was finding a shoe( believe it or not) that made me feel confident in making the switch.I run the Minnars and spds with the tension all the way off so it's easier to release and I've yet to accidentally pop out because of low tension.
     
  26. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Obviously. :rofl:



    You know the percentage of nipple interference you have with the airspace above your handlebars?


    Increase it by 38.4%
     
  27. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    It ain't the top tube, it's fvcking man steeze yo. I've had plenty of bikes that were a little too long for me and I never acted like I was hiding the pit hair. I think my butt was just waiving in the air a little more but I was ready for some motherfvckin pushups regardless.
     
  28. demo 9

    demo 9 Turbo Monkey

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    Shimano shoes and am45 shoes. I ride them on my cross-country bike but on my downhill bike I take my feet off and adjust my foot position way too much to run clipped in. I take my feet off and a lot of the flat corners and just ripped that ****. As much as I want to I do not think clipped in for downhill will work in my future. Any truth to not be able to ride the front if you are riding flat pedals? That could be the problem in generl-trying to do something that "cant" be done
     
  29. Nick

    Nick My name is Nick

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    No.

    ...
     
  30. SCARY

    SCARY Not long enough

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    I need more of these green square things^^
    Well, quit taking you feet off so damn much.Theres no need to have readjust your feet all the time when your clipped in...cuz.....your clipped in.

    I'm sure somebody will insist the riding positions are exactly the same between clipped and flats,but they'd be lying or wrong.

    I'd love to agree with Kidwoo ,but I'm not sure what he said.

    the only other thing that I can think might help is to stiffen your fork up a bit.I try to get everyone to do it around here,but they all seem pretty happy going slow....and maybe try rolling your bars a little forward to bring your elbows up a little,naturally
     
  31. kidwoo

    kidwoo Celebrating No-Pants Day

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    Hiding pit hair



    Man steeze




    Fast guys don't care about hiding their armpit hair. Them bows is UP!
     
    #31 -   Dec 8, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  32. Tomasis

    Tomasis Monkey

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    good point about showing armpit hair :D

    demo, if you can afford one bike more, no need for two zerodes. Try Mondraker Summum Large with 10mm stem. Then you can learn experiment with different ride style! As to Make YAW turn :)
     
    #32 -   Dec 8, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  33. demo 9

    demo 9 Turbo Monkey

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    Wouldnt be getting two. Ill be selling mine and trying next years model. Its just a matter of sizing. My gut said stay on what i have-but i figured id check on here since i dont know much about sizing
     
  34. ianjenn

    ianjenn Turbo Monkey

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    I am 6' 2" and will most likely go MD not sure I want the LG or not. The MD will fit 90% of the people wanting to see the bike so I have to take that into consideration as well.
     
  35. jwick

    jwick Chimp

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    I know you said in the beginning you like a short stem, but a slightly longer one might help. A slightly longer cockpit and more weight over the front will give you a larger area to stay centered. I don't know what HA you're running now but an angle set would give you even more wheelbase on the smaller frame. You might even want to go longer with the stem at that point to weight the front even more.

    The angle set/longer stem setup worked for me.
     
  36. slimshady

    slimshady ¬°Mira, una ardilla!

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    As said many times in this thread, there are plenty of other factors to consider. For instance, I found I got washed out of many turns not because of my riding position, but because of WHEN in that particular turn I committed to make the bike lean and start actually turning.

    If you attack the turn sooner or later than its "natural" sweet spot, you will be surely ending with a wandering front end. Now that sweet spot depends not only of the turn itself, but also on how much speed you are carrying into it. And off course of the line you've chosen to attack it. But as was previously recommended, the best way to attack a not excessively closed turn is in a centered position, resting all your weight on the outer pedal, rising your outer elbow and bringing the inner one close to your body. Take McCormack and Lopes book for examples, and then, put your focus on PROGRESSION. Changing old habits takes way more time than learning new skills. Choose a short track segment with turns to both sides you can feel comfortable riding and learn your ways in it at a slow pace. Then increment your speed, and repeat.

    Leaning back and taking the turns as if you were manualling on a hardtail requires you to slow down, because at a higher speed you just can't make the rear tire steer faster than it rolls.
     
    #36 -   Dec 8, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2012
  37. ustemuf

    ustemuf Monkey

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    i'm the same size... i opt for the medium sized options as well - yet i always wonder about the larges.....

    when i sit on large frames, the front wheel just feels way too out there for my riding style.. like you say, i really prefer getting weight over the front and carving turns hard and fast. by fast i mean, get the whole turn done with quickly, less time leant over..

    first time riding in over 3 months today.... wasnt scared to get my weight over the front in the berms! super happy about that..

    http://railmaster.net/backatit.jpg
     
  38. Optimax150

    Optimax150 Monkey

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    May be simple but how do you hang onto your handle bars? If you hang on to them like your doing a pull up then your elbows will be more tucked in. Hold the bars like your doing the bench press it will naturally force your elbows out. I seen this on the Fluidride video, again might be simple and dumb but little things can make a difference.
     
  39. iRider

    iRider Turbo Monkey

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    What about the high pivot point? Could that be a reason?
     
  40. HardtailHack

    HardtailHack used an iron once

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    I am the last person that should be posting in an I'm riding too slow thread, buuut........

    Do you always corner with your cranks vertical? If so fix that quick, it's horizontal or foot off!

    EDIT, I still love 5deg backsweep bars, forces your elbows out and your upper body forward.
     
    #40 -   Dec 9, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2012