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Advantages/Disadvantages of a longer TT

demo 9

demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,910
46
north jersey
BmxConvert said:
Wtf?I have no idea what that means. What formula did you use to calculate this?
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rootsandrain, generally i have been around 3% off on a clean race, as in my time was 1.03 x the winner. (i assume) For the races i attend, many of which i have had a big washout on the track. If i can pick up 3-4 seconds i can be on the podium. Usually neko, gwin, Gavin, or another heavy hitter wins by a landslide and the rest of us mortals battle it out 5-10 off that pace. I can tell im loosing time in the corners, probably not enough to win any of these, but a few podiums would help my national rank for sure; especially when im blowing out corners in some of them.


General Lee said:
I prefer the Ricky Bobby method: If you ain't first, your last!
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i tend to agree, hoping to solve a few issues, many of the tricks and posture ideas in here have helped with the small amount of street riding i have been able to do. Waiting for the rain to stop but i could see alot of this helping.

edit.
Sure its not bad, and i have reached a level of riding im happy with, a level that a while back would be enough to quit racing, but now that im where i am, and i am paying entry fees, if i recognize a problem that can pull off a few seconds a race, why wouldnt i, it is a competition after all. Besides, imagine what i could do if i had good posture ;)
 
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Optimax150

Monkey
Aug 1, 2008
208
0
Japan
demo 9 said:
rootsandrain, generally i have been around 3% off on a clean race, as in my time was 1.03 x the winner. (i assume) For the races i attend, many of which i have had a big washout on the track. If i can pick up 3-4 seconds i can be on the podium. Usually neko, gwin, Gavin, or another heavy hitter wins by a landslide and the rest of us mortals battle it out 5-10 off that pace. I can tell im loosing time in the corners, probably not enough to win any of these, but a few podiums would help my national rank for sure; especially when im blowing out corners in some of them.
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Are you sure your losing time in the corners? I know corners are very important. I was paying very close attention to my technique on corners. I would ride the same corner or two for about a hour. The last race I was thinking maybe I lost some time in other areas. Maybe not taking a pedal stroke here and there, on the breaks to much on a steep section or just lack of balls to let it go in places.
Maybe you just got to let it hang out and get wild. Where I'm at I get two race runs, I noticed if I keep it in control I'm slower versus letting it hang out and sliding around. Just get use to being out of control so your in control. One last thing practice like you race.
 
jonKranked

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,981
24,535
media blackout
demo 9 said:
Workin on that too but thats a lifestyle change. Not sure im ready for that yet. :)
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you'll see a much more noticable change in your riding from that than you would from a fraction of an inch here n there on your bikes geometry.

not to mention you'll be a lot better off in the long run, and i'm not just talking bikes.
 
norbar

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,369
1,605
Warsaw :/
Optimax150 said:
Are you sure your losing time in the corners? I know corners are very important. I was paying very close attention to my technique on corners. I would ride the same corner or two for about a hour. The last race I was thinking maybe I lost some time in other areas. Maybe not taking a pedal stroke here and there, on the breaks to much on a steep section or just lack of balls to let it go in places.
Maybe you just got to let it hang out and get wild. Where I'm at I get two race runs, I noticed if I keep it in control I'm slower versus letting it hang out and sliding around. Just get use to being out of control so your in control. One last thing practice like you race.
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That's one thing I noticed when I raced more. I got huge gains over my friends in the techy parts of the track. Especially where there was place for some stupid line choice but when we crossed the line our times were identical because they pedalled out of corners more and let it hang in the open more. Concentrating on one part doesn't always make you faster on race runs. Even if you seem faster in training.
 
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ebarker9

Monkey
Oct 2, 2007
850
243
How did this, despite all factors seemingly aligned to send things in a bad direction, actually turn out to be one of the better/more informative threads on RM in recent memory?
 
ianjenn

ianjenn

Turbo Monkey
Sep 12, 2006
3,001
704
SLO
I wanted to share a few files of Nico. I notice he isn't elbow up and bent most of the time. Could have a lot to do with new bike HA and such but still...







 
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kidwoo

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Aug 25, 2003
42,146
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Squirtin ketchup n' mustard on charred flesh
ianjenn said:
I wanted to share a few files of Nico. I notice he isn't elbow up and bent most of the time. Could have a lot to do with new bike HA and such but still...
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It has mostly to do with the fact that you picked photos where he's in the air pushing his bike forward to stay level.



And actually his elbows ARE out in the two ground shots. They're just not artificially 'canadian out'. Plus he's french so his chest is probably concave.
 
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ebarker9

Monkey
Oct 2, 2007
850
243
ianjenn said:
I wanted to share a few files of Nico. I notice he isn't elbow up and bent most of the time. Could have a lot to do with new bike HA and such but still...
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And picture 2 is Nico Lau :)

Vouilloz does still ride in an elbows up style for the most part, but less exaggerated than someone like Mick Hannah, and more like Gee (who is the most elbows-down top level rider I can think of).

Pictures for comparison:





Although, looking for pictures of Gee I'm seeing him a lot more elbows up in most situations, particularly cornering, as well:

 
ianjenn

ianjenn

Turbo Monkey
Sep 12, 2006
3,001
704
SLO
Yeah I think each person has a variance on what works best. Maybe a % of degree that would shift by build type.
 
OGRipper

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,654
1,129
NORCAL is the hizzle
There should be an RM Hall of Fame and I hereby nominate 'Woo as the first member.

From the pics you seem stuck in the early 90's riding position technically known as "Ass Back". :D It's a timeless self-preservation instinct. Back when head angles were steeper it was (arguably) more necessary to keep from going over the bars. With newer geometry it is less needed, and it is self-defeating because it results in less front wheel traction and overall bike control, not more.

And although it's hard to tell based just on the pics, I think that bike looks a little small for you.

Based on my experience a bike with a longer top tube will allow you to stay centered yet still have enough bike in front of you that you won't be scared of flipping over the bars on every rock. I'm 6'1" and switched to a large v10 after riding mediums. I immediately felt that I could put more weight forward without feeling like I was too far over the front. My weight was distributed more evenly and I felt more confident charging headfirst into sketchy stuff. (For me that translated to being merely slightly less slow, but still.)
 
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General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,860
0
The 802
Y'all keep talking about elbows, but if you get your chest a bit more forward and over the front of the bike (like all those guys in the above photos) your elbows will tend to fall naturally into place to support your weight (but like Woo said, not in the fake canadian bacon sort of way).

I'm not suggesting you want to hang over the front wheel, but spread your weight out more evenly between the 2 wheels. This is why tob tubes on DH race bikes have grown in recent years.

This is a guy from a local DH race here in Taiwan. He is on flat ground and way off the back. He's about to eat on the next bump because he's pulling back on the bars with his fingers to hang on rather that pushing down with his palms to hold himself up. Go watch some beginner level riders at your next DH race or group ride and notice how their front wheel seems to go wherever it wants, this is one of the reasons why. Clearly a gross exaggeration of bad technique, but you get the point?


If any of you are skiers this should sound familiar. How many of you when you first learned to get rowdy ended up leaning back into your boots with your arse over your tails, and eventually had to force yourself to man up and lean forward again. Guilty as charged.
 
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kidwoo

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Aug 25, 2003
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Actually I take that back: when I said that elbows out is a side effect of riding balanced and not a means to an end......I was wrong to do that.

If there's anything I've learned in the last 8 years about bike riding, it's that when coming across a group of betterride or similar clinics, there is literally nothing more hilarious in the sport of mountainbiking than seeing a bunch up people who have just been told "get your elbows up". I seriously went over a berm on a trail I've ridden thousands of times I was laughing so hard.

So keep this in mind: getting your elbows up (like REALLY up) is the very first step in riding your bike fast. Until you deliberately start defining the biggest wingspan you anatomically can produce, you'll never be a proficient bike rider. So stick'em out and stick'em high! And by god, most importantly do it in groups :rofl:
 
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General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,860
0
The 802
kidwoo said:
So keep this in mind: getting your elbows up (like REALLY up) is the very first step in riding your bike fast. Until you deliberately start defining the biggest wingspan you anatomically can produce, you'll never be a proficient bike rider. So stick'em out and stick'em high! And by god, most importantly do it in groups :rofl:
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Cam Zink showin' you how it's done
 
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buckoW

buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,787
4,732
Champery, Switzerland
Short top tubes are sketchy in corners. There is a smaller "sweet spot" and when getting wild is harder to stay in said "sweet spot"



Longer top tubes have a bigger sweet spot and are easier to stay in the sweet spot.



Another thing that helped me is to get the bike sliding without iniciating the slide with the brakes. Lean the bike farther than you are comfortable with until both wheels slide then turn the bar the direction you are pushing wide with more weight over the front like a flat track motorcycle. The back wheel will start to get back behind you and then you are ready to start carving the bike again with or throw it sideways again depending on speed. The weight shift from front to rear must be used to add or reduce traction on the front or rear wheel. I also push down hard on the inside grip.

 
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General Lee

Turbo Monkey
Oct 16, 2003
2,860
0
The 802
But with a really short toptube you can also take your bike on the plane as carry-on luggage. This can be of particular advantage when weaving through tight traffic during long layovers.

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ustemuf

ustemuf

Monkey
Apr 8, 2010
198
15
Bay Area
semi-rode that one out.. if that counts? i didnt crash, but i jumped off the bike after making the turn cause i was about to crash if i didnt :p

thanks man...... knee feels pretty good all things considered. i had my first day riding back on saturday, and did a little night ride on monday.. had to dab down a couple times with the bad side and everything felt cool.

i'm still riding a little cautious, but maybe thats a good thing.
 
ianjenn

ianjenn

Turbo Monkey
Sep 12, 2006
3,001
704
SLO
SCARY said:
I think ustemef is a perfect example of mirror lenses making you look like a badass whether or not you're not crash ,crashing .
Mirror lenses will overcome bad technique come race day.
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Fill em red/orange and make em look more pimp.
 
kickstand

kickstand

Turbo Monkey
Sep 18, 2009
3,441
392
Fenton, MI
Optimax150 said:
Are you sure your losing time in the corners? I know corners are very important. I was paying very close attention to my technique on corners. I would ride the same corner or two for about a hour. The last race I was thinking maybe I lost some time in other areas. Maybe not taking a pedal stroke here and there, on the breaks to much on a steep section or just lack of balls to let it go in places.
Maybe you just got to let it hang out and get wild. Where I'm at I get two race runs, I noticed if I keep it in control I'm slower versus letting it hang out and sliding around. Just get use to being out of control so your in control. One last thing practice like you race.
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This.

Now, I'm not fast, but it would be cool to be fast.

I did a few comarison runs last year at one of the snowshoe races. Now the timing may not be perfect because I was using my own phone to time myself in comparison to my race run. But I rode 3 conservative laps through the tech, and pedaled my balls off on the flats/wide open, etc. Then I rode 3 "race pace" laps with a focus on hauling ass through the tech and pedaling in the same places I had in my race run.

My 3 race pace laps were consistently about 3-5 seconds off my race time from the previous day.

My 3 "pedaling laps" ranged from 5-15 seconds faster than my race time.

Yes, cornering is important, confidence is important, and it looks like getting your elbows out and up could help you. But how is your fitness and pedaling?
 
demo 9

demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,910
46
north jersey
My fitness isnt great, but I dont believe that is the main problem, Most of the mountains i race are very short tracks with most of it being steeps or rock gardens. (rox) I can usually pedal as much as i need to without a problem. Snowshoe was actually one of the places i struggled. I currently have been working on the fitness aspect. Cant ever be too fit can ya?
 
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