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Advantages/Disadvantages of a longer TT

kickstand

Turbo Monkey
Sep 18, 2009
3,441
392
Fenton, MI
My fitness isnt great, but I dont believe that is the main problem, Most of the mountains i race are very short tracks with most of it being steeps or rock gardens. (rox) I can usually pedal as much as i need to without a problem. Snowshoe was actually one of the places i struggled. I currently have been working on the fitness aspect. Cant ever be too fit can ya?
It may not be the main problem. But I bet it slows you down more than you think. I am bad at cornering, so I know that hurts me.

I struggled a little at snowshoe with race times around 5 minutes its a long course, and has some flat spots. Massanutten I struggled as well, but I attributed that to early in the season and two long pedaling sections.

But yeah, you can never be fit enough, it surprises me how much fitness DH actually takes to be fast. I bet if you improve your riding a bit, and also step it up with the fitness the two combined will really help your times out.
 

EVRAC

Monkey
Jun 21, 2004
757
19
Port Coquitlam, B.C., Canada
So Demo 9, in all seriousness, I am in a bit of the same boat.
M/L Zerode, and I'm 5'11 1/ 2".
What do you think we can do to mitigate the short reach on these frames?
I have a 888, but with the older bolt on stem.
I'm thinking of maybe making a custom top crown / stem with maybe 65mm of reach?
Also, do you think lower-or zero-rise bars would help get your upper body farther forward?
 

was?

Monkey
Mar 9, 2010
268
30
Dresden, Germany
Also, do you think lower-or zero-rise bars would help get your upper body farther forward?
upper body further forward, as in better in every case?
this in particular might be a misconception. I've had the experience that a dm-stem with more rise and length enabled me to ride my bike active and not lock in, in an all out deadmans stance.
if my front is too low, i'm weighing it passively, to not fall of the front of my bike.
my chest is too low, my arms are nearly straight and i am somewhat restricted by beeing too far forward and not beeing able to move the bike underneath me.
hmm...
 

norbar

KESSLER PROBLEM. Just cause
Jun 7, 2007
11,346
1,587
Warsaw :/
So Demo 9, in all seriousness, I am in a bit of the same boat.
M/L Zerode, and I'm 5'11 1/ 2".
What do you think we can do to mitigate the short reach on these frames?
I have a 888, but with the older bolt on stem.
I'm thinking of maybe making a custom top crown / stem with maybe 65mm of reach?
Also, do you think lower-or zero-rise bars would help get your upper body farther forward?
On a frame with relatively high headtube and 888 I'd recomend you a flat bar (element technic nickel wide - it is on CRC. Seriously recommended if you want a great, as low as possible bar) but for a new breed of frames like the one demo is talking about it's a bad idea. I transfered my flat bar to my current frame and it was a problem on steeper tracks (did Champery on a 0mm rise (true measured from the middle) 0 deg upsweep bar)
 

Udi

RM Chief Ornithologist
Mar 14, 2005
4,915
1,200
At 5'11 - 6' I would want a longer bike than the current M/L Zerode. It's a pretty average sized medium, and at this height (at least personally) I feel the best size is closer to a large in most bikes.

I found the best improvements you can make are to squeeze out the maximum wheelbase and reach you can in these scenarios. Wide (800) bars will increase hand-foot distance (a little forward roll is good), and fork height along with angled cups will help increase wheelbase. The resultant slacker head angle is generally a good thing too.

It's not just about the reach, wheelbase makes a big difference - sounds counter intuitive but having the front wheel further forward encourages you to get over it, whereas a steeper bike with a shorter WB tends to decrease confidence and encourage sitting over the back.

I think in the past large bikes were possibly a bit too long for 5'11-6', but with the recent advent of slacker head angles, wheelbases have grown longer and cockpits have grown shorter for a given size. This is brilliant, because now people around the 6' mark (which seems to be a very common height) can have a comfortable hand-foot distance on a large frame, with all the benefits of a longer bike.

At a certain point, too long a bike will cause problems in tighter corners, but for the most part I've found I can ride faster on a longer bike. It's definitely course / terrain dependent, but after testing the new Scott Gambler in L size (~48" wheelbase) at Whistler, which has tighter corners in sections than anything I'd usually care to ride, I've decided that it takes a pretty tight corner before a longer bike is slower - and generally anywhere else it will be faster - especially on steeper stuff.
 

S.K.C.

Turbo Monkey
Feb 28, 2005
4,096
25
Pa. / North Jersey
Jesus Christ mountain biking just isn't this hard.


Go smell yourself some cocaine and get angry for fvck's sake.
HEL-LO new signature... :rofl:

Woo - if you ever make it out east for a GES or ESC race at Mountain Creek, beer is on me the ENTIRE weekend. (truth)

So, I've been reading through this entire thread and there is really some useful advice on here - butters post on page 4, Woo's post on page 5 and what Udi said above stand out to me, but there are lots of useful bit from others as well.

demo9 - you are indeed a fast rider. As a matter of fact I was riding the lift a number of years ago with this guy Todd who pointed you out to me. ;) I said "Yeah, I've seen him ride, he definitely rips from what I can tell... wait... he's who?... he's demo9 on RM...? THAT fu*ckin' guy?!..." Haha - but you've come a long way around here since then I think.:)

Constructively, the only things I can add are this:
As others have said, you look cramped on your Zerode. (living room pic) A longer TT would definitely benefit you. From personal experience, I also have the tendency to retreat to the back end of the bike while riding steep or technical corners at speed. While this does make you "feel" safer you're actually making your situation worse. Less weight over the front end = less traction = the front wheel washing out. If you add to this a bike with a TT that is too short, this contributes to that "oh SH!T" feeling in corners if your riding style is rear-biased. You will try to retreat even more toward the back end of the bike and on a short frame, this will really unweight the front tire. If you feel like you ARE weighting the front end of the bike, but are washing the front end out anyway, you are turning the wheel too much or are leaning the bike too much or both. If you are not comfortable over the front end at speed, the fear response can have a tendency to screw up technique.

Changing bad habits or a particular riding style takes time. Be patient with it. Begin the learning process by starting out SLOWLY. While focusing on changes you are making, dial down your speed to aid the learning process. Then as you form the pathways in your brain with the new upgraded techniques and your muscle memory kicks in, increase your speed incrementally.

Some basics:
Flat corners - slow speed: LOOK through the turn, use peripheral vision to spot your line but focus eyes where you want to be ahead of the turn, lean the bike beneath you between your legs, stay upright and centered, medium attack position (slight bend at knees), gently weight inside grip, cranks level
Flat corners - high speed: LOOK through the turn, use peripheral vision to spot your line but focus eyes where you want to be ahead of the turn, lean with the bike beneath you, shift hips to outside of bike/corner, weight inside grip, drop outside pedal, weight outside pedal, full attack position (drop it like it's hot - crouch. Elbows will naturally flare out)

Berms - low speed: LOOK through the turn, use peripheral vision to spot your line but focus eyes where you want to be ahead of the turn, lower your stance, lean with the bike and stay centered, shift hips to outside of bike/ corner if radius is tight, take the low line, pedals can be either level or drop the outside, TRUST the berm.
Berms - high speed: LOOK through the turn, use peripheral vision to spot your line but focus eyes where you want to be ahead of the turn, take the high line, stay centered, crouch/tuck, weight the inside grip, drop the outside pedal, brace for G's.

I was riding a Medium Revolt for a year and by accident a small Sunday before that (funny story). I'm just over 5'10" but my armspan from fingertip to tip is around 77" (I come from a long line of orangutans) so while riding my Revolt, I always felt like I was going to eat it even while in the safety of a berm. The Problem: My arms were too cramped and my chin was over the front hub while in attack position before even trying to "get over" and weight the front end. It wasn't until I jumped on my buddy's 08' medium Demo 8 that I realized my frame was too short. The riding position just felt so comfortable.

So a few things:
1) The cornering issues you are experiencing seem to be 50% bike setup and 50% mental. Get your head and riding technique dialed first, then start working on your bike.
2) Everyone's riding style is different, everyone's body metrics are different. You said you are a numbers guy, and you seem to like analyzing a situation that is giving you trouble. A good racer always analyzes a problem or mistake so he can apply what he's learned, but STOP analyzing once you've reached a conclusion. Then go test it. There's an old phrase in business: "Analysis Paralysis" - don't wind up sitting around overthinking "it".
3) Try riding around on other people's rigs during the off season to get some variety. See what you like with regard to TT length. There are a million other factors that come into play when doing this since each frame will have different geo, but try it anyway.
4) Your Demo may be the standard by which you measure other frames. Keep this in mind.
5) It seemed a bit like you are trying to solve a riding style / technique / habit with an equipment change. If this was your approach, this will not solve the problem. See #1
 
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demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,910
46
north jersey
^ holy harry potter book, good to hear from ya SKC, what do you ride, lets see if we can put a name to a face. You know who i am, but im not so sure i know you (at least not on the internet).

Either way great advice
 

S.K.C.

Turbo Monkey
Feb 28, 2005
4,096
25
Pa. / North Jersey
In order to protect those close to me like my girlfriend Rachel or my butler Alfred, my identity must remain a secret. :D

No problem! Glad I could help!

We've seen each other around MCBP/Diablo though we've never been formally introduced. At the next GES race at MCBP, I'll make a formal introduction.

One other thing I forgot to add: Focus on being centered with even weight distribution on the bike while cornering. Once you feel comfortable cornering at speed (or at least as fast as you can with this weight distribution) then begin focusing on shifting a bit more over the front end. Take it in steps - don't just go balls out and start hanging over the front end - you'll scare the hell out of yourself and won't learn proper technique/balance/turning and leaning the bike.
 
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JimLad

Monkey
Sep 23, 2009
101
2
Whistler
Weighting the inside grip is a good way to wash out. You want nearly all the pressure on the outside
 
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demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,910
46
north jersey
Its going to be another zerode, same basic thing, bike is solid as the day is long, but next year, they are offering a larger large. I was not sure whether to step up, but it seems that its about 60/40 in favor of it (and i wanted to go bigger) so i will be trying to get a large frame. (depends on the geo numbers) *and working on my riding which is probably the bigger problem. There will be a canfield 1 popping up here soon, but its not my dedicated DH bike, its just the sum of my box of parts (in another thread)
 
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buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,776
4,695
Champery, Switzerland
I rode a buddy's Zerode for a run and it felt 2 sizes smaller than my L size Gambler (new one). It was way too small for me to corner with an aggressive style.

An off camber grass hill and a road bike without tires or brakes is a good cornering exercise. Drink lots of beer while training and your focus/committment will improve.

 

iRider

Turbo Monkey
Apr 5, 2008
5,648
3,089
An off camber grass hill and a road bike without tires or brakes is a good cornering exercise. Drink lots of beer while training and your focus/committment will improve.
Proof that our friends on the road are right! F*** 26", 650B and 29", 28" is where it is at! :D