Advice needed - Mavic 721 or 823

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by tatankainlondon, Jan 14, 2008.

  1. tatankainlondon

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    Hi
    I need a few words of advice in choosing the correct rims for my Yeti 303 build.

    I want to go tubeless this year and since I am at the stage of planning my wheels I thought I ask people about their opinions and recommendations. I will be running Michelin DH16 at front and Michelin DH24 at rear.

    The question comes down to deciding on one of these rims:

    * Mavic 823 with Michelin DH tubeless tyre
    or
    * Mavic 721 with Stan's Notubes and Michelin DH tubeless tyre.

    I weight quite a bit, 260lb ride ready so please take it into account whilst helping me choose.

    Also, is it possible to run mavic 721 with stans but without the sealant? The reason for that question is that I will probably only have one set of wheels and lack of sealant makes changing the tyres much easier and less messy job.

    so, what's your recommendation?
     

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  2. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    823 for sure!

    dont get me wrong, the 721 is an amazing rim, but only some people can get it to work tubeless. it failed horribly when i tried it. the problem i had was getting to stay on the bead. you are heavy and will be using higher pressures so it might work. but the 823 is fail proof. and dont worry, they are strong too. :)
     
  3. poonstar

    poonstar Monkey

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    Mavic 823's for UST unless you have Deemax's.
     
  4. tuumbaq

    tuumbaq Monkey

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    I would personally recommend the 823.You can run Michi's or Maxxis tubeless tires and if you want you can even use the Stan solution and run non tubeless tires...I think you get more options if you go straight with tubeless rims.

    I've had a new set every year for the last 3-4 years and had no issues at all with any of the rims...
     
  5. DiRt DeViL

    DiRt DeViL Monkey

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    823's, stay away from tubeless conversions.
     
  6. davep

    davep Turbo Monkey

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    brilliant reply.


    I have had great luck with my 721s and stans (as well as 729s, DT5.1s) with maxxis (tubeless and non-tubeless) and michelin (tubeless and non-tubeless)....never an issue in 4 or so years....

    That being said, I would go 823s, because of your requirements.
     
  7. Cant Climb

    Cant Climb Turbo Monkey

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    what kind of tire pressue are you running for DH......?
     
  8. davep

    davep Turbo Monkey

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    Depends on the tire size, front or rear, and terrain/speed.

    Mich 2.8..as low as around 20psi (front only and rarely ridden any more)
    Typical 2.5 maxxis or mich....
    higher 20s for front tire in slower or less rocky conditions
    lower 30s for the rear in same conditions

    for fast and or rocky conditions..
    front = lower 30s
    rear = mid 30s

    in the interest of 100% disclosure, I did blow out two tubeless mich tires at the same time once @ whistler when you used to come down the fire road from garbonzo....both front and rear had 1-2 inch gash after hitting a ten inch cube of granite @ full speed...but any tires in any set up would have been toast.

    I weigh ~ 190.
     
  9. Cant Climb

    Cant Climb Turbo Monkey

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    I was just curious......running lower pressure tubeless resulted in cut tires for me.....upping the tire pressure to prevent this resulted in slower timed runs......

    The fastest times on my home courses are when using heavy DH tubes......i couldn't get within 10 seconds of my best time with tubeless.
     
  10. Eren

    Eren Turbo Monkey

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    how did the 721 rim hold up for you? cuz considering 823 or 721 for new wheels. non tubeless
     
  11. davep

    davep Turbo Monkey

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    They are fine. Few sidewall dings but they are straight and true...not bad for a summer of riding. I build them quite tight and use a tension-o-meter and take my time.

    Next time I will most likely go with 823s..they were just more $ and my limited experience working mavics with the threaded eyelet gozmos was not great (ksyrium ssl). I had also head stories of eyelets ripping out of the rims..but seems as it is just that..stories.

    someone needs to weigh a 823 with all eyelets vs a 721 with stans strip.......I think they are pretty close.
     
  12. tatankainlondon

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    If I decide to get 823s I will try to get their weight with all the eyelets in. So far it looks like for my application where ability to change tyres without mess is important, 823s have some advantages.
     
  13. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    823s are really heavy, they are something like 720 grams with the eyelets in. but overall if set up tubeless they are about the same weight as a 721/xc tube/dh tire combo.
     
  14. -C-

    -C- Monkey

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    No they are not!

    The bare rim minus the eyelets weighs ~ 580G (I've weighed about 7 different rims & they have all been withing 1g of this).

    The Eyelets weigh 48g, in the bag they come in, with 33 in the bag (always one spare). So its fairly safe to assume 45g for 32 eyelets.

    Puts the total for the rim at 625g, which adds up to a build I did including the hub, spokes & nipples, came in bang on what it should have.

    EX721 comes in at ~590g, again all have been pretty much bang on the weight, then you have to add the Stans strip, and I found you need to use a lot more sealant on a non UST rim/tyre set up.

    All in, its still lighter when you're using a 'like for like' weight rim to go tubeless. But not by a huge amount.
     
  15. no skid marks

    no skid marks Monkey

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    Pfft,owned,lol.relax,it's all fun.
    I think 823s are the best. Most reliable,easy,light,with a good 2.5Maxxis tyre profile. I'm currently on 721/Stans and I'll go back to 823s,didn't get around to trying Tubless Maxxis with stans on the 721 though. Hopefully a tighter fit.
     
  16. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    god!! i said i wasn't sure about the weight. weight weenies are really killing this place.
     
  17. no skid marks

    no skid marks Monkey

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    So are rumour spreaders with misinformation ;)
     
  18. gonefirefightin

    gonefirefightin free wieners

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    i am running the new 823 tubless with non alloy nipples and 2.0 to 1.2 double butted dt swiss spokes, be sure and use linseed oil on your build and keep your wheels clean. it is the most bomb proof tubeless set up on the market, not the lightest but less maintenence.
     
  19. tatankainlondon

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    chill out people
    I just wanted to hear comments and recommendations and not to start some sort of argument here.

    relax :)
     
  20. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    dude, in my original post i already stated that that wasn't the exact weight of them. :)
     
  21. -C-

    -C- Monkey

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    I heard from xyz.com that the new 721 actually weighs 850g.

    No, wait, that might not be correct. Sorry.

    :p

    If you're going to quote numbers, check they are right first!
     
  22. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    i didn't quote it from anywhere, it was just a number from the top of my head. what i weight my self.

    the weight on the mavic web site say 657 grams, but we all know thats with out the eyelets. i remember the eyelets to be roughly 70 grams. so that brings it to roughly 727 grams. with your weight for the eyelets of 45g that still brings it to 702 grams.

    unless you are saying that the 823 weights posted on mavics web site include the eylets, then the rim its self is 611 grams?
     
  23. -C-

    -C- Monkey

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    As I said before, the rim is ~580g. It's always been 580g.

    Where Mavic get their weight from, I have no idea, everywhere BUT the Mavic site has the weight at 580g, including weight weenies, and again, that matches my findings, on a stupidly expensive & accurate set of scales.

    I'm quoting actual real life weights, not numbers from the 'top of my head'.
     
  24. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    fair enough, good to know that 823s aren't as heavy as i though they were. reduces the temptation to ditch the tubeless system.
     
  25. in the trees

    in the trees Turbo Monkey

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    I just weighed two unbuilt '07 823s. Results:

    Rims - 654g, 663g
    Nipples Inserts - 61g for 36, 55g for 32

    toby
     
  26. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    toby, the weights for the rims are those with or with out the eyelets? just to be clear, it gets confusing when its not stated.
     
  27. Laaz

    Laaz Monkey

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    if i remember correctly:

    pre 2006 823: around 580g
    2006 and .... 823: around 650g
     
  28. 4xBoy

    4xBoy Turbo Monkey

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    Where can I find a complete set of eyelets for a pair of 823 rims on the net?
     
  29. in the trees

    in the trees Turbo Monkey

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    Those weights were without the inserts.

    toby
     
  30. in the trees

    in the trees Turbo Monkey

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    Directly from Mavic (888-466-2842), maybe.

    toby
     
  31. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    so that bring the weight of a 32 hole rim up to 709 grams?

    C- sorry to bring this up again, but are your rims the pre 2005 ones?

     
  32. -C-

    -C- Monkey

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    Looking at the cross section, pre '06 - the only difference I can see is the profile of the sidewall.

    This is getting confusing now - strange that the older rims are so much lighter - thats a huge difference!

    Looks like I'll be sticking with them for now, not really a problem, as they are still nice & straight with no dings after all this time.

    Kinda rules them out for me now when they do need replacing though :(

    The difference in weight between an 819 & 823 is a joke, Mavic really need a 721 (or 821) UST.
     
  33. dhkid

    dhkid Turbo Monkey

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    the old ones had problems with strength. i am hoping they release the 821s soon. they are found on the crossmax sx.

    ok, so weights now. new 823 ~ around 709g? old 823 ~625g.

    so i guess that top of the head number of 720 wasn't far off. cheers for that C.
     
  34. -C-

    -C- Monkey

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    How strange, mine have been nothing short of great, been laced up to 2 sets of hubs now & still going strong. Admittedly, i'm not a kit destroyer anyway.

    821 sounds perfect if they get the weight right, other option could be the EN521, at 540g. No idea on strength of that right now though.
     
  35. tatankainlondon

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    hi
    thank all for replies to this topic.
    I need to find the cheapest source of 823s here in the UK and simply go for them.

    cheers