[$tinkle]

Don't equate my position with support of affirmative action. I think that AA is really just a bandaid solution (a bad one at that) and should not be the first line of defense. Primary education and community building are so much more valuable.

maybe you're not saying it, but it appears this leaves open for consideration that AA can be stop-gap while we get the "real" solution in place, much like how fossil fuels are ok for the next 20 or so yrs until we work out the kinks in wind/solar/nuke. but hasn't this gone on for generations, and with no end in sight (much like racism itself), and in fact solving this problem is a threat for those whose stock-in-trade is "awareness"? this is the bee in my bonnet.

My argument is that there is a place for racial sensitivity in science, and even the pursuit of pure science can have adverse effects when hard science types forget they don't work in a vacuum and psychology/sociology/neurology are just as real as chemistry.

i wasn't aware that chemistry was as flexible to interpretation & presentation as the other "sciences", or that it should cow [read: be bullied] just b/c its facts as presented are inconvenient or deemed "insensitive". perhaps you're suggesting they could be more delicately couched, like ringing the doorbell & leaving a tract on your doorstep? but what would this effective pussification accomplish? i believe it would stall future efforts & advances of the sciences, ironically those which exist precisely b/c of the irrefutable understanding of chemistry

And I believe that this science is worth pursuing, exposing, and discussing. But it is not worth postulating upon, publicly, prior to results. It's also a very different result to find both ability and opportunity are equal but preferences are not, than to find that ability is unequal. I'm not sure how I would treat such a finding, since exposing it would only exacerbate the problem...

and to further postulate: i imagine whatever rashly spewed findings charles murray - excuse me - larry summers put forth, if they were false or found to be baseless, we would have heard about it by now, especially given his position in the obama admin

that's one troll that can't be ignored

 

[$tinkle]

Duck Race to End Racism

The free event was co-sponsored by National Grid and Syracuse University. It featured children's entertainment, games, face-painting, community information booths and free Byrne Dairy Ice Cream.

must....resist....urge......

 

[Toshi]

More fodder for the flames: http://youngmenofcolor.collegeboard.org/sites/default/files/downloads/EEYMC-ResearchReport.pdf

As of 2008, only 41.6 percent of 25- to 34-year-olds in the United States had attained an associate degree or higher. More alarmingly, only 30.3 percent of African Americans and 19.8 percent of Latinos ages 25 to 34 had attained an associate degree or higher in the United States, compared to 49.0 percent for white Americans and 70.7 percent for Asian Americans (Lee and Rawls 2010).

Asians are good at math, go figure:

Asian Americans/Pacific Islanders are often cited as the highest-performing student group on a variety of achievement measures. For example, in their 2010 release of Status and Trends in the Education of Racial and Ethnic Groups, the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) reports that among 12th-graders, 36 percent of Asian Americans/Pacific Islanders scored at or above proficient in mathematics on the 2005 National Assessment of Education Progress (NAEP) compared with 29 percent of whites, 8 percent of Latinos, 6 percent of Native Americans and 6 percent of African Americans. Reports also indicate that Asian Americans/Pacific Islanders take more mathematics and science courses in high school and have higher participation and performance in Advanced Placement® (AP®).

They do note that "Asian" encompasses a whole, huge spectrum of ethnic backgrounds and socioeconomic status:

Of note, educational outcomes among Asian Americans/Pacific Islanders differ greatly by ethnicity, socioeconomic status, parental education, generation, immigration status and language — with East and South Asians demonstrating higher economic and educational attainment than Southeast Asians and Pacific Islanders (Kim 1997; Olsen 1997; Lee and Kumashiro 2002; Um 2003).

That Asians as an aggregate do so well even with poor-performing subgroups (the text cites native Hawaiian islanders and Filipinos in particular) is frankly amazing, and I feel that the authors gloss over it in their rush to explain away the poor performance of other minority groups, which takes up the rest of the report.

The conclusion is pretty somber, but, again, I don't see how they can throw away the data from Asians when ascribing blame for the admittedly ****ty situation we currently have. In their words:

The postsecondary pathways data show that 10 percent of African American males, 3 percent of Asian American males, 5 percent of Hispanic males and 3 percent of Native American males are incarcerated. Prisons and jails have become a significant destination for African American and Hispanic males. Unfortunately, unemployment is the most likely destination for those African American and Hispanic males who do not end up either dead or incarcerated. Collectively, the pathway data show that more than 51 percent of Hispanic males, 45 percent of African American males, 42 percent of Native American males and 33 percent of Asian American males ages 15 to 24 will end up unemployed, incarcerated or dead. It has become an epidemic, and one that we must solve by resolving the educational crisis facing young men of color.

What bugs me about this report is that it repeatedly downplays the "model minority stereotype" and highlights the diversity between Asian ethnic groups, but even in the examples that they cite of relatively underperforming Asian sub-groups such as native Hawaiians the numbers usually show those groups performing on par with white people.

 

[sanjuro]

I'm doing my best to lower the curve.

 

[Silver]

I know I wouldn’t have done nearly as well as I did in grade school if it hadn’t been for my parents, my mom in particular, communicating and enforcing a strong set of expectations for my performance.

I just wanted to highlight this part, because it's important.

I never, ever, had a time in my life where I was not expected to go to university. I was a bright kid, sure, but from preschool on there was always the assumption by my parents and grandparents and rest of my family that I was going to university. Interestingly enough, my sister (also bright enough) never had that same expectation.

I went to university, she didn't. I often wonder how much that unspoken assumption made a difference. I also wonder how much it had to do with the fact that my dad has a degree and my mom doesn't. Probably a lot, I'm guessing.

 

[HAB]

I just wanted to highlight this part, because it's important.

I never, ever, had a time in my life where I was not expected to go to university. I was a bright kid, sure, but from preschool on there was always the assumption by my parents and grandparents and rest of my family that I was going to university. Interestingly enough, my sister (also bright enough) never had that same expectation.

I went to university, she didn't. I often wonder how much that unspoken assumption made a difference. I also wonder how much it had to do with the fact that my dad has a degree and my mom doesn't. Probably a lot, I'm guessing.

It was never a question for either myself or my sister. Both my grandfathers were professors for at least a portion of their careers, both parents went to college (dad has a bachelors, mom has a Ph.D.), etc. My sister was a way more motivated student than I ever was in grade school, and so the way the expectations were presented were a bit different, but they were there for both of us.

Interesting about you and your sister. Reading between the lines there, is she younger? I've got a close friend/ ex whose older sister had been trying to make a living as a professional ballet dancer, and never went to college. My friend had been seriously considering doing the same, and from what she's told me, would have had her parents support in giving that a go if it's what she'd really wanted, but having seen her sister doing it only semi-successfully, she had a bit of a rethink, and went to school as an engineer instead.

 

[Toshi]

(near the top of my high school class, 1570 SAT, at one of the top engineering schools in the country, etc) but I know I wouldn’t have done nearly as well as I did in grade school if it hadn’t been for my parents, my mom in particular, communicating and enforcing a strong set of expectations for my performance.

Parental expectations may be necessary for such achievement but are by no means sufficient. All the expectations in the world won't do jack squat to get Joe or Josette Sixpack to get a 1570... unless we're talking new-school style out of 2400.

From what I can tell, I don’t think the standards for female students are terribly different than those for males, from an admissions standpoint, and I don’t think (anecdotally, I don’t have any hard figures to back this up) that their performance, as a whole, is too dramatically worse than that of males.

You don't know this to be true. I've already shown the standards to be ridiculously uneven in the context of med school admissions. See post #5.

 

[Westy]

Not all asians are good at math. I have worked with the Japanese for close to twenty years. I don't speak Japanese so I have learned to deal with the communication barriers that can exist, it can be frustrating but not impossible. The past 6 months I have been dealing with a Japanese automotive parts supplier that has a bad reputation for ****ty parts. I can see they have poor standards. Every communication has been the most frustrating experience of my life, trying to discuss the most fundamental technical details turns into a basic physics lesson. Thinking that the problem was with language we hired a retired Japanese engineering professor as a liaison. No help whatsoever. It is not a language problem, we are dealing with short bus passengers. This is the kind of place that would hire Montashu.

 

[Toshi]

Not all asians are good at math. It is not a language problem, we are dealing with short bus passengers. This is the kind of place that would hire Montashu.

No argument here. Any possible effect would be shifting the whole curve over a point or two, or having a longer tail (possibly longer tails... hmm ). The left half of the curve is still well populated, and I think your company may have oversampled from there.

 

[Toshi]

I'm just saying that parental expectations definitely do impact motivation, and thus academic achievement in the long run.

Ok. Assuming this to be true, then why should its effects be "fixed" by affirmative action? We don't mandate children be raised in identical manners as wards of the state, after all.

(Thought experiment: should we judge white children less harshly on their violin-playing aptitude in conservatory auditions since Asian parents are more likely to have started their precious little youngsters on the same at an early age?)

 

[HAB]

Ok. Assuming this to be true, then why should its effects be "fixed" by affirmative action? We don't mandate children be raised in identical manners as wards of the state, after all.

I never said it should. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough on that point. In fact, I meant rather the opposite- I think a more laudable goal would be to work to lower the performance gap so that there's no perceived need for affirmative action at all. This is of course largely ducking the issue of a potential genetic component, as you were discussing earlier. I'm at work and don't have the time to delve into that one much.

 

[Silver]

Interesting about you and your sister. Reading between the lines there, is she younger?

Yeah, she's younger. I think a lot of it had to do with unconscious sexism on the part of my parents. She had the mommy track as an option, so the expectations weren't there.

 

[Toshi]

Everything in one figure:

Words written by me, originally posted here: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+ToshiClark/posts/3a4vCTn33Mb

Every year the popular media headlines after the release of PISA scores [1] blare similar refrains: Asian nations dominate international test from The Seattle Times this year [2], for instance. These headlines don't tell the whole story, of course, but I suppose they make for better click-through rates.

Thankfully, there are both columnists who poke through the veil a bit, in particular in noting that Shanghai's students are not representative of China as a whole [3,4].

Despite the "Asian domination" headlines, however, no columnists have been so brave as to break down America's result by the ethnicity of the student test-takers. The good news is that I'm brave/stupid/underground enough to tackle this issue (and have beat this particular Asian/education drum for years [5-13]).

So is my conclusion merely that the number of books in one's house is the only significant factor, as has been suggested (noting that it is a proxy for parental involvement) [14]? No--if that had been all I had uncovered, then I wouldn't bother posting at all.

Instead, the data [see attached table] clearly show a positively immense correlation between ethnicity and PISA test scores (mathematics in my chosen sample, derived from data found at link 1). The difference between Asian/White (who are within a standard deviation or at least two from each other) to Black and Hispanic children is immense, far greater than the differences between any countries once the cherry-picked Shanghai students are thrown out of the mix.

This doesn't necessarily imply that ethnicity itself is the underlying reason, of course: as the data also show, there are huge effects, roughly equal to that of ethnicity, based on parents' highest level of education (the loaded question being whether this is a reasonable proxy for parental IQ) and the number of books in one's house. Given the very high rates of tertiary education among Asians much of this effect may be due to having educated parents who stock their house with books.

This brings us back to the chicken and egg problem, if the ethnicity effect is wiped out once correcting for parental education and books-at-home. (I haven't done this analysis, as I lack both the time and the capability to do it… even though I'm Asian--cue rimshot.) Anyway, the problem: If Asian kids do well because their parents did well and prepare their kids in turn to do well in a virtuous cycle, how to jumpstart the rest of the nation to get their asses in gear?

If one doesn't want to invoke notions that students of one ethnicity have more innate ability, then one must in turn explain away these differences due to culture and parental involvement. These issues should be addressable… yet the scores for American blacks and Hispanics are positively dismal.

The real questions asked about America's educational system should be whether continued poor performance and poverty in these groups are causative or merely correlative, and, based on the answer, what might be done.

[1] http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/
[2] http://seattletimes.com/html/education/2022383186_apxschoolsglobaltest.html
[3] http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/brookings-now/posts/2013/12/loveless-shanghai-pisa-scores-almost-meaningless-hukou-a-factor
[4] http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/07/education/07education.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
[5] https://plus.google.com/u/0/+ToshiClark/posts/H8pma7aCVui
[6] https://plus.google.com/u/0/+ToshiClark/posts/6CTfFf6ftuE
[7] https://plus.google.com/u/0/+ToshiClark/posts/j1qHS9BYJ7P
[8] https://plus.google.com/u/0/+ToshiClark/posts/eV8CynX6btN
[9] https://plus.google.com/u/0/+ToshiClark/posts/7t8QZsdpCW7
[10] https://plus.google.com/u/0/+ToshiClark/posts/SHQE8A8wX9s
[11] https://plus.google.com/u/0/+ToshiClark/posts/AuzgyVDnZ1x
[12] https://plus.google.com/u/0/+ToshiClark/posts/BbD1Mmgk57g
[13] https://plus.google.com/u/0/+ToshiClark/posts/X62FMFxwi1N
[14] http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-08-19/the-real-reason-americas-schools-stink

 

[Toshi]

This might have been more appropriate in a bump of the rich America/poor America thread. Same issues.

 

[Toshi]

It has come the time to fan the flames again. Context: our daughter, Mariko, will be attending Denver Public Schools. DPS has a Highly Gifted and Talented program that's supposedly for kids with aptitude in the 97th, 98th, or 99th percentile, depending on which source you take.

Well, that 97th percentile cutoff is only valid under certain conditions. If you're on a free lunch program or if English is your second language then magically the bar drops to the 75th percentile.

This is garbage. This is a huge dilution of a program in order to placate observers who notice that outcomes don't turn out as they'd envision when merit is assessed, versus the alternative method of using rainbow colored smoke and handwaving.

The underlying assumption in that Denver Post article as well as especially apparent in the comments to this Chalkbeat article is that the disparate outcomes that are indeed amply demonstrated (see NYT article about NYC gifted programs linked in the Chalkbeat piece, or any of the posts of mine earlier in this thread) imply a systemic bias in the system.

This assumption is wrong, and now I can say it with some certainty after reading more of the literature.

If you look at the evidence, which is almost universally ignored, you will see that IQ is indeed highly correlated with race. (Guess what? This harkens directly back to the first post in this thread, where the HLS study was pilloried for suggesting this to be true. Which it is.) Once this is established then the outcomes make much more sense, and I argue that the moral basis for affirmative action is then very, very tenuous.

Ok, you ask: What's the evidence that has convinced me to go out on this burning limb? Rushton JP, Jensen AR. Thirty years of research on race differences in cognitive ability. Psychology, Public Policy, and Law 2005(11); 2:235-294.

Before you tar and feather me, read the paper. It's a legitimate peer reviewed publication citing a large and varied corpus of research spanning a century (!) that shows large differences independent of testing mechanism. Furthermore, they present multiple lines of evidence that suggest that the genetic component of this observed difference (as opposed to that from environment) is at least half.

How big are these differences? Try mean IQ of 85 for US blacks versus 100 for whites and 112 for East Asians (the last hopefully dissuading any would be white supremacists from donning their hoods). A difference of 15 is a whole standard deviation. That's a lot, and given this documented reality the observed outcome data make a whole lot more sense, without invoking systemic bias.

Is there some bias in the system created by parental involvement and other non-child factors? Sure, I can buy that. What I cannot buy is the ignorance or disbelief that underlies a mindset that blames outcome disparities on the system alone without considering that all inputs are not equivalent.

If a certain absolute IQ score is a prerequisite for a certain level of achievement (e.g. medical school admission) and the distribution of IQs is such that the right tail of a particular group has only a certain number whereas another group (Asians) has more that fall in the range, then it absolutely is discrimination against the latter group to arbitrarily change the metrics in order to massage the outcomes to match one's incorrect expectations.

 

[Toshi]

It has come the time to fan the flames again. Context: our daughter, Mariko, will be attending Denver Public Schools. DPS has a Highly Gifted and Talented program that's supposedly for kids with aptitude in the 97th, 98th, or 99th percentile, depending on which source you take.

Well, that 97th percentile cutoff is only valid under certain conditions. If you're on a free lunch program or if English is your second language then magically the bar drops to the 75th percentile.

Something really similar as documented in Florida. From my own Google+ post:

Reverse discrimination glossed over by the NY Times.

I was linked to a NY Times article from a local education page [1]. The headline is "Why Talented Black and Hispanic Students Can Go Undiscovered" and the key passage is this:

In 2005, in an effort to reduce that disparity, Broward County introduced a universal screening program, requiring that all second graders take a short nonverbal test, with high scorers referred for I.Q. testing. Under the previous system, the district had relied on teachers and parents to make those referrals.

The economists David Card of the University of California, Berkeley, and Laura Giuliano of the University of Miami studied the effects of this policy shift. The results were striking.

The share of Hispanic children identified as gifted tripled, to 6 percent from 2 percent. The share of black children rose to 3 percent from 1 percent. For whites, the gain was more muted, to 8 percent from 6 percent.

This is complete bullshit, though, because this "universal IQ testing" was judged with different thresholds for "non-disadvantaged" and "disadvantaged" students. A reading of the source study [2] shows that disadvantaged students had to score 115 or higher on this IQ test. Non-disadvantaged students had to score 130 or higher.

Admittedly there's not a perfect correlation between disadvantaged status (FRL/ERL is their definition) and not being white but there's certainly a strong correlation. With that in mind achieving near-parity in outcomes is meaningless because the standards are a solid standard deviation apart.

(Assuming a normal distribution centered around 100 for both groups, which is a loaded assumption in and of itself, that'd be the difference between 84th percentile and 97th percentile students accepted.)

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/10/upshot/why-talented-black-and-hispanic-students-can-go-undiscovered.html?_r=1

[2] http://davidcard.berkeley.edu/papers/universal-screening-NBER21519.pdf

 

[Serial Midget]

I'm pretty sure smart Asian babies like sprinkles just as much as any other babies... I'm personally uncomfortable with equating race with brain power, I don't want anyone to think their intelligence and potential are impacted by their race.

How many really intelligent people do you know who never seem to keep a decent job? Are some of them Asian? How many idiots become leaders of society? Are some of them black? Intelligence does not preclude or guarantee a successful life. Numbers and measurements can't rationalize everything.

 

[Toshi]

Those are nice thoughts in general. How do you reconcile them with different standards from kindergarten through grad school like in my last post? This is known, and it is discrimination.

 

[Serial Midget]

By being humble, avoiding thoughts of superiority and not making excuses for a society that is solely responsible for racism, poverty and unequal educational opportunities.

 

[SkaredShtles]

By being humble, avoiding thoughts of superiority and not making excuses for a society that is solely responsible for racism, poverty and unequal educational opportunities.

Easy for you to say, Whitey.

 

[Serial Midget]

Easy for you to say, Whitey.

Exactly, my parents had the opportunity to get a decent education, land a good job and move the family to a neighborhood with good schools. I am not where I am today because of superior brain power, I'm here because my parents had the opportunity to provide me with opportunity. Not everyone has that.

Would Toshi be a doctor today if not for his parents hard work and sacrifice? Do all parents have the same opportunities to give their children a leg up?

 

[Toshi]

I acknowledge all that. That's on parents, and frankly black parents in aggregate are doing a shitty job, for the record. Look up rates of out of wedlock births over time if you want to be depressed.

My qualm isn't with this. It's with policies that make Asians (and whites to a lesser degree) jump over a higher bar, even though there's no guarantee they got lucky in the genetics or parent stability lotteries. That's unfair and persists because well meaning people feel guilty about outcomes and then blind themselves to the sordid details.

 

[Serial Midget]

I acknowledge all that. That's on parents, and frankly black parents in aggregate are doing a shitty job, for the record. Look up rates of out of wedlock births over time if you want to be depressed.

My qualm isn't with this. It's with policies that make Asians (and whites to a lesser degree) jump over a higher bar, even though there's no guarantee they got lucky in the genetics or parent stability lotteries. That's unfair and persists because well meaning people feel guilty about outcomes and then blind themselves to the sordid details.

Pardon my racism but don't Asians want to jump higher than others...

 

[Westy]

Another hard working Asian has their spot stolen

http://www.salon.com/2016/05/03/sounds_like_black_privilege_to_me_rampant_racism_forces_fox_news_to_close_comments_section_on_malia_obama_article/

 

[Toshi]

I can appreciate that she (or Natalie Portman from my class) actually does bring a different set of experiences to the school. Random NYC kid whose Harvard Law parents are in Big Law, not so much.

 

[Westy]

I can appreciate that she (or Natalie Portman from my class) actually does bring a different set of experiences to the school. Random NYC kid whose Harvard Law parents are in Big Law, not so much.

That and considering the genetic seed from which she was sown, she probably is fucking smart.

 

[Toshi]

6-3 bump

 

[kidwoo]

frankly black parents in aggregate are doing a shitty job, for the record. Look up rates of out of wedlock births over time if you want to be depressed.

You're not still this fucking stupid right?

edit, just read more of the thread. What brand of skull calipers did you end up getting?

 

[Toshi]

You're not still this fucking stupid right?

edit, just read more of the thread. What brand of skull calipers did you end up getting?

To be fair, poor white parents are also still doing a shitty job

There really are multiple subcultures in America and some of them have objectively shitty habits

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

To be fair, poor white parents are also still doing a shitty job

There really are multiple subcultures in America and some of them have objectively shitty habits

Its almost as if there was correlation between race and structural poverty in the US, that wouldnt solve itself.

 

[Toshi]

Its almost as if there was correlation between race and structural poverty in the US, that wouldnt solve itself.

/poor first gen Asian immigrant families in Queens look up briefly from their books

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

/poor first gen Asian immigrant families in Queens look up briefly from their books

wouldnt they get preferential treatment over wealthy asians because of affirmative action?

 

[Toshi]

wouldnt they get preferential treatment over wealthy asians because of affirmative action?

Under traditional affirmative action based off of race, no, they’d be treated the same as my kids.

I’m 100% in support of universal preschool/head start, advanced programs available in all public schools, and socioeconomic status-based admissions preferences btw. Just not race, per se. This:

 

[kidwoo]

To be fair, poor white parents are also still doing a shitty job

There really are multiple subcultures in America and some of them have objectively shitty habits

Ive always given some association with academic and financial competence, and the ability to use the correct blinker and not come to a dead stop before a turn on a busy highway. But here we are. Is it your bigger brains or all you all distracted by a complex math equation in those big heads?

There's so much stupid in that statement I quoted, but I have admit the most glaring is the puritanical wedlock bs. Nevermind the complete lack of context considering things like mental health and depression

 

[kidwoo]

/poor first gen Asian immigrant families in Queens look up briefly from their books

Ive seen a hardbound version of that book

The Testing of Negro Intelligence: Volume One : Audrey M. Shuey : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

FOREWORD TO THE SECOND EDITION:The question of Negro-white differences in mental test performance has been the subject of lively debate in recent years....

archive.org

 

[Toshi]

For those of you interested in my point who didn’t come in knowing all of the answers to everything as did woo:

https://www.aei.org/articles/belmont-fishtown/

 

[kidwoo]

For those of you interested in my point who didn’t come in knowing all of the answers to everything as did woo:

https://www.aei.org/articles/belmont-fishtown/

LOL

Charles Murray

Charles Murray, a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, has become one of the most influential social scientists in America, using racist pseudoscience and misleading statistics to argue that social inequality is caused by the genetic inferiority of the black and Latino communities, women...

www.splcenter.org

Apparently the answer to my original question is 'yes'

Just the noble academic trying to understand the real , maybe genetic issues facing the noble savage right? Kind of like this thread.

 

[stevew]

#racesplainingwhenwhite

 

[mykel]

LOL

Charles Murray

Charles Murray, a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, has become one of the most influential social scientists in America, using racist pseudoscience and misleading statistics to argue that social inequality is caused by the genetic inferiority of the black and Latino communities, women...

www.splcenter.org

Apparently the answer to my original question is 'yes'

Just the noble academic trying to understand the real , maybe genetic issues facing the noble savage right? Kind of like this thread.

Some people need to die humiliating ,very slow and very painful deaths.

Fuck that guy.

 

[kidwoo]

#racesplainingwhenwhite

#IcantberacisctImasian