Right on, how would you break down what each one does well? And you wouldn't happen to have ridden a Spitfire for comparison, would ya?
Aggro Trail Bikes - Haaaaaalp
- Thread starter ZHendo
- Start date
I haven't ridden a spitfire. There was time a while back where pretty much all of banshee's trailbikes had kind of a weight to stiffness ratio problem so I never sought them out. This was pre current spitfire though. But hey biases die hard.
The differences between my rfx and mt have a lot to do with suspension setups. I've got a 170mm travel 36 with a 20mm axle on the rfx which is stiffer, and has better compression damping than the 160mm pike I have on the megatrail.
I have super special damper rebuilds on both of them, the one on the rfx a little more biased towards rampage.
Running the mt in trail mode changes some things too obviously. But I can throw that bike around in a way that I just can't do with the rfx. It's just flat out faster on mellower trails because it pumps transitions better and I can place it quicker where I want it. Again the shorter rear end has a lot to do with that (I have the 26" version with sub 17" chainstays).
I have enve am wheels on both because hey......ain't nobody buying used 26" shit any more. That stuff is cheap!
So with all that said, a 27.5 megatrail in gravity mode with dialed suspension isn't going to be an entirely different animal. The chainstays get closer between the bikes, the travel and overall leverage ratios on the shocks are the same.....the one big nod to the MT is that the BB doesn't go as high as the RFX with 27.5 wheels. Plus you can change the thing between the two settings. That's cool.
There's a material difference between the two that just can't be avoided.......stout carbon frames just create a more rigid setup. The MT is not even close to flexy, but it's not a big 'tubed' carbon frame. It is however stiffer than some other carbon frames I've ridden which I think is hilarious. It's not news that plastic and aluminum have a different feel though.
jstuhlman: That range I had is also an absolute beast descending. I really really liked going downhill on that bike. I just sold it because the rear end stiffens up so much under pedaling, it just causes the back wheel to hang up on ledgy stuff. After two hours that kind of behavior just wears you out more with way more starts and stops. If most of my descents were reached by roads, I wouldn't give a shit and would probably still have it. That extending rear end made for some good traction on steeper smooth sections of trail. I liked the short rear end too. I wish my rfx had that.
The differences between my rfx and mt have a lot to do with suspension setups. I've got a 170mm travel 36 with a 20mm axle on the rfx which is stiffer, and has better compression damping than the 160mm pike I have on the megatrail.
I have super special damper rebuilds on both of them, the one on the rfx a little more biased towards rampage.
Running the mt in trail mode changes some things too obviously. But I can throw that bike around in a way that I just can't do with the rfx. It's just flat out faster on mellower trails because it pumps transitions better and I can place it quicker where I want it. Again the shorter rear end has a lot to do with that (I have the 26" version with sub 17" chainstays).
I have enve am wheels on both because hey......ain't nobody buying used 26" shit any more. That stuff is cheap!
So with all that said, a 27.5 megatrail in gravity mode with dialed suspension isn't going to be an entirely different animal. The chainstays get closer between the bikes, the travel and overall leverage ratios on the shocks are the same.....the one big nod to the MT is that the BB doesn't go as high as the RFX with 27.5 wheels. Plus you can change the thing between the two settings. That's cool.
There's a material difference between the two that just can't be avoided.......stout carbon frames just create a more rigid setup. The MT is not even close to flexy, but it's not a big 'tubed' carbon frame. It is however stiffer than some other carbon frames I've ridden which I think is hilarious. It's not news that plastic and aluminum have a different feel though.
jstuhlman: That range I had is also an absolute beast descending. I really really liked going downhill on that bike. I just sold it because the rear end stiffens up so much under pedaling, it just causes the back wheel to hang up on ledgy stuff. After two hours that kind of behavior just wears you out more with way more starts and stops. If most of my descents were reached by roads, I wouldn't give a shit and would probably still have it. That extending rear end made for some good traction on steeper smooth sections of trail. I liked the short rear end too. I wish my rfx had that.
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Yes, specifically Predator and OTG.
And climbing up on trails, making sure to get about 15 miles or more of uphill yesterday. I'll post some of my thoughts tonight.
RFX: Maiden Ride
I had only pounded around my garage and gone out for a long mostly-road/bike path ride previously, so this was the first time the RFX saw dirt.
Firs thing I did was climb up the new Master Link trail. If I didn't know better, I would have thought it's been there all along. Nice steady climb without any technical sections or hart parts, just a grind in the trees, and from what I hear that will be very nice come summer time when the road is baking.
Climbing here was pretty non-descriptive. Not much to say, other than it felt fine, didn't seem like the medium setting on the Monarch was necessary, but it did make it a bit more stable as far as the chassis. The bike is stable enough though without it most of the time, especially given that the rear end doesn't dive when you go over stuff when climbing (rear end goes over a bump, compresses, you happen to put down power at the same time, rear end compresses more, typical horst link behavior). I'm trying to decide whether I want a 32t on the front (installed) or my 30t. This climb definitely didn't make me want the 30t.
Got to the top of the hill where Predator starts. Rode the short climb up (no dabs, but again, not a very hard climb, I get the impression that a lot of people are pushing rigs at this point though). Rode down, cold, no previous experience. The RFX is a pretty nice ride for this, seemed to be pretty neutral. I'm not sure if this is where I screwed up the rebound, but sometime between the climb and 3/4 through the descent on the 2nd day, I realized I was running 8 turns out from full closed, way way too slow. At first, I was thinking that it was getting harsh on repetitive bumps, which I attributed to installing the extra bands in. I did this because in the driveway, at recommended sag and even less than, it was blowing through the travel like crazy. Adding the bands seems to have helped significantly, but I kind of have to return to zero with the suspension tuning, since I was running the rebound screwed up. I think I may find that adding the bands added some harshness on the repeated stuff due to making it a little too progressive (basically, a band-aid for the lack of more low speed compression with a tuned high speed stack). So we'll see there. Otherwise, the bike got down everything great. Braking seems to give a good deal of traction. It felt a little different than the FSR for sure, perhaps because the FSR was trying to unload the suspension more when braking heavy. Kind of felt like the rear wheel was "digging in" and "giving traction" while braking to a higher extent.
Some of the trail features on Predator seem a little odd to me, as in they are just designed too big for the speed that is needed to clear them, it seemed like there was always a nice launch point to clear something, but it was usually followed by an immediate turn in a rock garden, which means if you actually tried to clear it or jump higher, you'd be off the trail and crashing into a tree. The bike handled the chutes just fine, which was a nice relief due to the wheel size being 27.5 and me being used to my Enduro with it's 29er wheels. That E29 would roll over just about anything, so I definitely wanted the RFX to be aggressive enough to ride down stuff and not feel like the front wheel was stuffing-into the bumps and drops. I think Kidwoo was talking a little about having to bring the front end up more, I guess that might be accurate, but there are so many places on that trail where you just do that because a drop comes up fast, at least for me, who hasn't ridden it before. It's also about "do you want the front wheel to roll down" and encounter anything there, or do you want to "boost it a bit" to be sure you clear anything that might be in between the lip and the dirt a little further? So I found myself doing "last second boosting" a little more, but that may just be the nature of the trail and my experience with it.
Took it down the rock-rolls at the road-crossing and it did just fine. The fork is a Lyrik, I installed modified pistons in it as soon as I had it, but I'm going for the full Avy-cartridge, just don't have it yet. The fork did ok, but nothing too spectacular. I wasn't trying to do too much with it as far as tuning, I let out a little pressure on the second day, which seemed to open it up quite a bit more (without bottoming).
On the second day, I rode all of the "around the mountain" trails, Timer, Swamp, Joyride, Railroad, up to the summit from the backside I think. This was a much better test of the climbing IMO. One thing I really liked was starting up after a little tech section where I dabbed or that was too technical, when you start up on a steep slope and put the power down, it's MUCH easier to get going again than with that ole E29, which would just bog way down at the same time. I also noticed more on the steep grade reversals that you get more out of your pedal stroke, but the front end stayed down very nicely, never did I feel that my riding was compromised by the front end getting too light (big issue with my old RFX and trying to run a 170mm fork). I also noticed much later on the way back (some of the same trails) that it seemed to beat me up less when I was tired, in that it still seemed reasonable to pedal uphill, whereas the E29 and old RFX seemed to get significantly harder to pedal as you tire. I don't think a 30t was necessary here either, but it would be a harder choice than on the climb the other day.
Headed up to OTG and took it down. That was fun, obviously easier than Predator, but definitely a ripping trail for the RFX, lots of swoopy sections where you aren't on the brakes all the time for speed-checks, lots of little hips and fun features to work. At one point on the trail, I was simply reminded of how fun it was to go ripping down this kind of stuff on my old RFX, where I said to myself: "this is what an RFX is for!". Whipping it back and forth was much fun. Near the bottom, where I was really in my element, I passed a lady who screamed a few minutes later when I was at the bottom (yes, that loud). I think she was riding with a guy that was already at the bottom, along with some trail crews. Luckily, she didn't break anything and wasn't seriously injured, but man that scream sounded like she broke a leg or something and we all freaked out at the bottom.
A few quirks I had: Top shock bolt had a bit of play at the bottom of Predator. I had taken the shock off before, to insert a few bands. Although pretty tight, I gave the bolt about 1/4 to 1/2 turn, which took care of it.
The second day, I thought I was having the same issue, but looked at my DT axle, which had worked it's way loose and was unscrewing. Since I had been partially disassembling my bike in-between to keep the hotel crew less suspicious, it was probably my fault. Usually I never take off the wheels and those things are not issues.
I slashed the front Hans Drumpf on the 2nd day also on a razor-sharp rock after riding for 30min to an hour. I don't know if anything else would have held up, but I went into town to the REI, picked up a WTB tire, headed back out on the trail to finish my GDmed ride. Thank you dividend. Both the WTB vigilante and hans dampf 2.3 are skinnier than my Vredstien Bobcat, that I'm running in the rear. If you want a bit meaty tire that isn't very heavy, that bobcat is pretty sweet.
I had a bit of cable rub on the derailleur cable w/the rear tire, I loosened up a few of the mounts and pulled the cable away more, which fixed it, but I'll probably revisit it to make it a little cleaner. It's a double-edged sword with exposed cables, don't have to fuss with stealth and easy to adjust, but then you can have rub too.
In short, it seems pretty neutral, turns well, but I can feel a slight hit in that compared to 26er wheels, having used 29ers and fat bikes, but no one makes 26ers anymore anyway, the BB height feels fine to me, close enough that I'm not thinking about it, still had a few good pedal and crank strikes-nothing crazy, but enough to let you know it ain't a 14.5 BB, pedaling traits seem excellent all around, much better than what I had before, especially in the critical situations where you want it to do well. Drops, jumps, hips, mid-air changes and all that is as you'd expect, something that come to it naturally where it just feels at home. Bike felt stiff the whole time, no issues there.
I apologize that I can't be a little more descriptive about the exact ride, with only 2 days of riding I don't have enough information yet. I did love riding it and felt like it was a great bike for the terrain.
I'll have some video of Predator and OTG in a day or week (cuz work).
The rock that slashed my Hans Dampf:
I had only pounded around my garage and gone out for a long mostly-road/bike path ride previously, so this was the first time the RFX saw dirt.
Firs thing I did was climb up the new Master Link trail. If I didn't know better, I would have thought it's been there all along. Nice steady climb without any technical sections or hart parts, just a grind in the trees, and from what I hear that will be very nice come summer time when the road is baking.
Climbing here was pretty non-descriptive. Not much to say, other than it felt fine, didn't seem like the medium setting on the Monarch was necessary, but it did make it a bit more stable as far as the chassis. The bike is stable enough though without it most of the time, especially given that the rear end doesn't dive when you go over stuff when climbing (rear end goes over a bump, compresses, you happen to put down power at the same time, rear end compresses more, typical horst link behavior). I'm trying to decide whether I want a 32t on the front (installed) or my 30t. This climb definitely didn't make me want the 30t.
Got to the top of the hill where Predator starts. Rode the short climb up (no dabs, but again, not a very hard climb, I get the impression that a lot of people are pushing rigs at this point though). Rode down, cold, no previous experience. The RFX is a pretty nice ride for this, seemed to be pretty neutral. I'm not sure if this is where I screwed up the rebound, but sometime between the climb and 3/4 through the descent on the 2nd day, I realized I was running 8 turns out from full closed, way way too slow. At first, I was thinking that it was getting harsh on repetitive bumps, which I attributed to installing the extra bands in. I did this because in the driveway, at recommended sag and even less than, it was blowing through the travel like crazy. Adding the bands seems to have helped significantly, but I kind of have to return to zero with the suspension tuning, since I was running the rebound screwed up. I think I may find that adding the bands added some harshness on the repeated stuff due to making it a little too progressive (basically, a band-aid for the lack of more low speed compression with a tuned high speed stack). So we'll see there. Otherwise, the bike got down everything great. Braking seems to give a good deal of traction. It felt a little different than the FSR for sure, perhaps because the FSR was trying to unload the suspension more when braking heavy. Kind of felt like the rear wheel was "digging in" and "giving traction" while braking to a higher extent.
Some of the trail features on Predator seem a little odd to me, as in they are just designed too big for the speed that is needed to clear them, it seemed like there was always a nice launch point to clear something, but it was usually followed by an immediate turn in a rock garden, which means if you actually tried to clear it or jump higher, you'd be off the trail and crashing into a tree. The bike handled the chutes just fine, which was a nice relief due to the wheel size being 27.5 and me being used to my Enduro with it's 29er wheels. That E29 would roll over just about anything, so I definitely wanted the RFX to be aggressive enough to ride down stuff and not feel like the front wheel was stuffing-into the bumps and drops. I think Kidwoo was talking a little about having to bring the front end up more, I guess that might be accurate, but there are so many places on that trail where you just do that because a drop comes up fast, at least for me, who hasn't ridden it before. It's also about "do you want the front wheel to roll down" and encounter anything there, or do you want to "boost it a bit" to be sure you clear anything that might be in between the lip and the dirt a little further? So I found myself doing "last second boosting" a little more, but that may just be the nature of the trail and my experience with it.
Took it down the rock-rolls at the road-crossing and it did just fine. The fork is a Lyrik, I installed modified pistons in it as soon as I had it, but I'm going for the full Avy-cartridge, just don't have it yet. The fork did ok, but nothing too spectacular. I wasn't trying to do too much with it as far as tuning, I let out a little pressure on the second day, which seemed to open it up quite a bit more (without bottoming).
On the second day, I rode all of the "around the mountain" trails, Timer, Swamp, Joyride, Railroad, up to the summit from the backside I think. This was a much better test of the climbing IMO. One thing I really liked was starting up after a little tech section where I dabbed or that was too technical, when you start up on a steep slope and put the power down, it's MUCH easier to get going again than with that ole E29, which would just bog way down at the same time. I also noticed more on the steep grade reversals that you get more out of your pedal stroke, but the front end stayed down very nicely, never did I feel that my riding was compromised by the front end getting too light (big issue with my old RFX and trying to run a 170mm fork). I also noticed much later on the way back (some of the same trails) that it seemed to beat me up less when I was tired, in that it still seemed reasonable to pedal uphill, whereas the E29 and old RFX seemed to get significantly harder to pedal as you tire. I don't think a 30t was necessary here either, but it would be a harder choice than on the climb the other day.
Headed up to OTG and took it down. That was fun, obviously easier than Predator, but definitely a ripping trail for the RFX, lots of swoopy sections where you aren't on the brakes all the time for speed-checks, lots of little hips and fun features to work. At one point on the trail, I was simply reminded of how fun it was to go ripping down this kind of stuff on my old RFX, where I said to myself: "this is what an RFX is for!". Whipping it back and forth was much fun. Near the bottom, where I was really in my element, I passed a lady who screamed a few minutes later when I was at the bottom (yes, that loud). I think she was riding with a guy that was already at the bottom, along with some trail crews. Luckily, she didn't break anything and wasn't seriously injured, but man that scream sounded like she broke a leg or something and we all freaked out at the bottom.
A few quirks I had: Top shock bolt had a bit of play at the bottom of Predator. I had taken the shock off before, to insert a few bands. Although pretty tight, I gave the bolt about 1/4 to 1/2 turn, which took care of it.
The second day, I thought I was having the same issue, but looked at my DT axle, which had worked it's way loose and was unscrewing. Since I had been partially disassembling my bike in-between to keep the hotel crew less suspicious, it was probably my fault. Usually I never take off the wheels and those things are not issues.
I slashed the front Hans Drumpf on the 2nd day also on a razor-sharp rock after riding for 30min to an hour. I don't know if anything else would have held up, but I went into town to the REI, picked up a WTB tire, headed back out on the trail to finish my GDmed ride. Thank you dividend. Both the WTB vigilante and hans dampf 2.3 are skinnier than my Vredstien Bobcat, that I'm running in the rear. If you want a bit meaty tire that isn't very heavy, that bobcat is pretty sweet.
I had a bit of cable rub on the derailleur cable w/the rear tire, I loosened up a few of the mounts and pulled the cable away more, which fixed it, but I'll probably revisit it to make it a little cleaner. It's a double-edged sword with exposed cables, don't have to fuss with stealth and easy to adjust, but then you can have rub too.
In short, it seems pretty neutral, turns well, but I can feel a slight hit in that compared to 26er wheels, having used 29ers and fat bikes, but no one makes 26ers anymore anyway, the BB height feels fine to me, close enough that I'm not thinking about it, still had a few good pedal and crank strikes-nothing crazy, but enough to let you know it ain't a 14.5 BB, pedaling traits seem excellent all around, much better than what I had before, especially in the critical situations where you want it to do well. Drops, jumps, hips, mid-air changes and all that is as you'd expect, something that come to it naturally where it just feels at home. Bike felt stiff the whole time, no issues there.
I apologize that I can't be a little more descriptive about the exact ride, with only 2 days of riding I don't have enough information yet. I did love riding it and felt like it was a great bike for the terrain.
I'll have some video of Predator and OTG in a day or week (cuz work).
The rock that slashed my Hans Dampf:
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Not that I could detect, but that wouldn't really be the right question IMO. Lets say you were super-human and could produce a perfectly steady power-output-stroke while standing. Some bikes, those with low AS, would be sucking a percentage of your energy to keep the rear shock compressed beyond it's sag point. Torque applied downward by the chainring pulls the cassette upward, and compresses the shock. This is why certain bikes feel "soggy" uphill, even when you aren't "bobbing". Even better question is, was there a big decrease in traction when I climbed? Not that I could tell, again the rebound was kind of screwed up, so I have to go back and test that some more, getting out of the saddle and sprinting up stuff was good, the stability was good (rear end not diving when power applied or when hitting bumps when power applied). With more experience on my local trails that I am familiar with, I can probably answer the traction question better (but they have to dry out).
If the Monarchs, what was done / who tuned 'em up?
Let me guess - moar shimz?
Definitely moar shimz. Wobbly late stage engagement shimz.
Was just poking around on the GG site, and at 6'1 I'm squarely between the medium and large sizes. Their sizing looks a bit funky - the large is pretty massive - but the medium is a bit short in the reach department relative to what I typically look for (~18-18.25). Any wisdom on sizing based on your experience on the bike?
I'm 6', and on a Medium. It fits well with a 55mm stem.
I sized down (small for me). Trails where you live are a little tighter generally speaking so if it were me, I'd get a medium. Look at wheelbase numbers too compared to your current bike. Just personally that's the first thing I look at to figure out how a bike is going to handle. You can always tweak cockpits.
It seems like lots of people like GG's sizing recs too. I didn't but I was in a weird position where I'd ridden both sizes and just liked the small better.
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I am 6' 1" as well I used the LG with a 35MM I thought the bike fit very well.....
Yeah, at 6'1" I think you could ride either. Which will work for you better depends on personal preference and how long a stem you want to run.
If you're in Seattle and want to sit on my medium to get a feel for the sizing we could probably work something out.
If you're in Seattle and want to sit on my medium to get a feel for the sizing we could probably work something out.
I ran into a guy coming down Lookout Mountain Trail yesterday as I was going up, riding a black RFX, he seemed confused when I asked if his name was Nicksame here, so far
Ha! Nope, not me.I ran into a guy coming down Lookout Mountain Trail yesterday as I was going up, riding a black RFX, he seemed confused when I asked if his name was Nick
But I may get up/down something today before Death Storm 2016® rolls in.
Our sizing is based from the bell curve distribution of person size; 5'10" is the top of that bell curve, and is the middle of a medium. There are always going to be people on the border between sizes, but we have less people in limbo with our sizing than if we did the typical sizing where 5'11" is on the border.
If you're mainly riding tighter trails, go medium with a 50mm stem, higher rise bars, slide the saddle back on the rails a bit. If you're mainly riding more wide open trails, go large and set it up like @ianjenn had his.
I think it's the wide angle view, the rock rolls were about as steep as Happy Ending in Flagstaff and the big one looked like it would be far more dangerous to walk than ride, probably some other vids somewhere. For as many cars were crammed in all the parking lots, the trails really weren't that bad.I am guessing that trail is waaaaay steeper than what it looks like in the POV footage.
>no dentists were harmed in making of this video<
Have you tried it with a longer stem? I'm starting to think I need to go from a 60mm stem, and 29er front wheel to a 40mm stem and 27.5 wheel. I don't think I can ride the bike as agressively with the slightly awkward front end.
6'1" medium megatrail with tall bars, but I've always preferred a more playful bike. My previous trail bike was a morpheus slope style bike (for sale).
i rode a Demo Turner RFX for one loop in Sedona, AZ last month. Im a big fan of DW's earlier bikes and was blown away how the RFX pedals, jumps, did everything 10/10. Im not a latest-greatest fanboi and still riding 3-5 year old bikes, but I got off the RFX thinking about what i can sell to pay for the frame. It was the first 27.5" bike i just felt natural on... kept wishing it had my 26" x 2.4" DHR2 and 170mm avy lyrik fork. I dd not have any complaints at slower speeds or uphills
what size RFX are you riding currently?
^^^RFX seems to me like it would be perfect for that
agreed, the RFX braking traction was much better than previous DW links. felt close to my split pivot frame, but climbed way better
My rfx is a medium.
