[scurban]

It is surely a wonderful thing to live in a country that by and large grants you almost limitless opportunity, advances your basic human rights, tolerates your insolent lack of gratitude and protects your worthless hide all the while with the lives of your betters.

Please remember the values that our nation was founded on (weather you agree with them or not) I'm not a religous man, however I do understand that the United states of American was founded on Christian beliefs. Maybe what we are doing to the Arab nation goes against many aspects of the Bible, However Isreal is God's "promise land", and Jewish people are God's choosen People. Revelations predicts that the end times will come when the "world" turns its back on Isreal. Since the greater majority of our Country are Claimed Christians, including George W. Bush, you can understand how not backing Isreal is a scary thought to them. On the other side, Muslims have their beliefs, and obviously not backing their beliefs would be scary to them. The war is religous, (yes there are financial reasons for both sides too), but above all else, religion is the key ingrediant here. Obviously I am leaving out some facts here, however you could write an entire book backing what I just typed.

Like it or not, being born in the US has given you far more oppertunities than you would have had if you would have been born in 99.9999% of other countries around the world. When all is said and done, we will come out on top of this whole mess, just appreciate that you live where you do, and back the U.S. Rather then talk smack about it on a mountain bike forum.

 

[scurban]

Your whole argument is still based on the fact that Iraq was a threat. Hello? It wasn't! Your argument is BS. You invaded their country for NO REASON and say it's acceptable to kill the locals if they resist? What about killing 60-70,000 civilians?

Iraq Maybe there are things about Iraq you don't know. Do you really think some things haven't been covered up? In addition maybe Iraq was not a Threat, but Al Queda was, and Iraq gave refuge to Al Queda members. It was only a matter of time, (and maybe still is) that Al Queda got their hands on a weapon of mass destruction. Was America just supposed to sit around and wait until that happend? NO! we were pro-active, and are trying to take care of the issue before is happens. Its easy for you to sit back and point fingers, maybe if the tables were turned, you'd have a different opinion.

 

[scurban]

by the way Changleen, Revell bikes are pimp, I agree with you on that choice, Nice aviater

 

[valve bouncer]

Like it or not, being born in the US has given you far more oppertunities than you would have had if you would have been born in 99.9999% of other countries around the world. When all is said and done, we will come out on top of this whole mess, just appreciate that you live where you do, and back the U.S. Rather then talk smack about it on a mountain bike forum.

I love it when the frothers come out with this sort of crap. I must be part of that 0.00001% because I've never set foot in the USA but I'm doing all all right here, like the majority of country-men in Australia as well as almost all the locals where I live. My sister lives in Britain- they seem to be going OK too, in fact most of Western Europe seems pretty prosperous, free and a good place to lay your hat. Gee i think that that's a bit more than 0.00001% but what would I know, I'm not American

 

[scurban]

I am directing that at the ingreats who were born and raised here, that do nothing but talk smack. You are not one of them.

I'm glad to hear you're doing ok though

 

[BurlyShirley]

what would I know, I'm not American

queer

 

[Changleen]

See previous post. Saddam should have been dumped by W's daddy, but he F'ed up and left the mess for later generations to deal with. Also, please don't restate 90% obvious information and then slip in tidbits of bull$hit like a contract rider or pork barrel additive. BTW, I got your idiot right here, biatch! I'll put my IQ up against yours any day of the week. You can't even fvcking spell correctly and you would dare to call me an idiot? "sucessful"? Obviously not a word you see very often. "premis", "pedalled" and "perpitrators"?? "choosen"??? Is that Kiwi for oral sex performed on a sheep? Get yourself back in school, see a little bit more of the world and then get back with me once you're a little wiser and less obtuse.

Aww, did somebody miss nap-time? Dude, you got owned. Roll over and take it like the bitch that you are.

 

[fluff]

On the Iraq question does anybody still consider that Iraq was a 'clear and present danger' to anyone?

Given that we now know:
They had no WMD.
Their armed forces were weak and under-equipped.

This is a hindsight question, if you believed the info at the time, fair enough, but now it's been pretty much entirely disproven, does anyone think he was a threat and if so to who?

(And whether or not you consider that Iraqis are better off without him (after all no one here can really see him as anything other than an evil bastard) that is irrelevant to his danger to the rest of the world.)

That'll be no-one then, not even the frothers? :devil:

 

[llkoolkeg]

Aww, did somebody miss nap-time? Dude, you got owned. Roll over and take it like the bitch that you are.

Actually, yes- I worked a 14-hour day and slept only four hours.

"Owned"?...hmmph. What a laugh! This is now the second time since I've been here that some oaf has said to me "Duuuuuude, you got owned". Why don't you again impress all here with your amazing powers of originality. Maybe you should break out the big guns and post up one of those cute little "owned" .jpg's. I wonder if your meager matter is even capable of producing a single thought of its own. Feel free to applaud your own eighth-grade effort, dimwit.

As far as "rolling over and taking it like the bitch I am", I will just say that I've never rolled over in my life for a male, not to suggest that I would be doing so in your case. Your general tone, excessive whining and resounding aura of PVSSY lead me to believe that in my presence, you would receive a happy thrashing that may just be able shake your dick free of it's home tucked back between your legs.

 

[llkoolkeg]

BTW, my apologies to anyone who clicked here looking for serious debate. What we have instead is the same group of "experts" parroting the obvious and stirring the pot long since cooked. If my coarse words offended anyone other than their intended recipient, sorry! I don't take kindly to personal attacks from those I do not value, so I often tend to get a bit animated and colorful in my imagery.

 

[fluff]

"Owned"?...hmmph. What a laugh! This is now the second time since I've been here that some oaf has said to me "Duuuuuude, you got owned". Why don't you again impress all here with your amazing powers of originality. Maybe you should break out the big guns and post up one of those cute little "owned" .jpg's.

Glad to see I'm not the only one tired of the 'own3d' riposte...

Not that I necessarily agree with your arguments...

 

[DRB]

Hmm, funny that nearly all the perpitrators of 9/11 came from Saudi eh?

So because Hitler was Austrian, Germany wasn't responsible for WWII? Idiotic arguement.

And that you got to build a nice oil pipeline across Afghanistan that you'd wanted for ages?

Who got to build a pipeline across Afghanistan? I'm looking to see who won the contracts for that construction job. There hasn't been any construction? Wait maybe its still in bid stage? Let me see the three countries potentially involved agreed to it. And let's see who is trying to develop it? US oil companies and contracted service companies I'm sure..... Oh wait that's can't be right???? The Asian Development Bank.

And the Afghan people wouldn't benefit? The transit fees alone would generate in the neighborhood of 100 million a year for Afghanistan. Plus the jobs that would be created for the contruction and long term maintenance and operation would be a sizeble number. However, I can state pretty close to fact that the odds of such a pipeline in the near term are pretty much 0. Currently, no companies have even nibbled at the ADB plans. The terms are good as well.

Lastly its a natural gas pipeline not a oil pipeline pinhead.

 

[ohio]

So because Hitler was Austrian, Germany wasn't responsible for WWII? Idiotic arguement.

Normally I agree with your arguments (and acklowledge Changleen's douche-osity), but this analogy doesn't fly. If the overwhelming majority of Nazi's had been Austrian, it would work, except that then I would blame WWII on an Austrio-German alliance rather thaqn Germany. In any case, the Austrians, while a sizable minority, were nowhere near an overwhelming majority... so it that doesn't fly with me.

Besides, the first person to mention Hitler in an e-argument automatically loses.

 

[DRB]

Normally I agree with your arguments (and acklowledge Changleen's douche-osity), but this analogy doesn't fly. If the overwhelming majority of Nazi's had been Austrian, it would work, except that then I would blame WWII on an Austrio-German alliance rather thaqn Germany. In any case, the Austrians, while a sizable minority, were nowhere near an overwhelming majority... so it that doesn't fly with me.

Besides, the first person to mention Hitler in an e-argument automatically loses.

Okay you're right the whole Hitler thing. Sorry but it was one line for what I was trying to say. However, its still an idiotic arguement.

The point was that Bin Laden and the vast majority of AQ was in Afghanistan. The training camps, the control, the whole nine yards. The then government was providing the infrastructure and a huge portion of the material support. It really is immaterial as to where the folks were from.

If they had been in Saudi Arabia then yeah I would say go get'em but I would have said the samething regardless of where they had been. This is not to say that Saudi Arabia is not a huge problem and one that eventually is going to get worse. However, it isn't the systematic and widespread support that was prevelant in Afghanistan at the time.

The funny thing is though if it had been Saudi Arabia that had been the focus of the US, the folks that are bitchin' about Afghanistan and pointing to Saudi Arabia would still be complaining.

 

[dan-o]

The point was that Bin Laden and the vast majority of AQ was in Afghanistan. The training camps, the control, the whole nine yards. The then government was providing the infrastructure and a huge portion of the material support. It really is immaterial as to where the folks were from.

I may be mistaken but I'm pretty sure AQ was paying the Taliban to allow them to operate within afghanistan.

 

[DRB]

I may be mistaken but I'm pretty sure AQ was paying the Taliban to allow them to operate within afghanistan.

What's your point?

 

[dan-o]

The point was that Bin Laden and the vast majority of AQ was in Afghanistan. The training camps, the control, the whole nine yards. The then government was providing the infrastructure and a huge portion of the material support.

My point was "you're wrong".

 

[DRB]

My point was "you're wrong".

Do you know what infrastructure is? Do you understand the term material support?

The Taliban (the Afghanistan government) was supplying these things to AQ. They were allowing AQ to have basic free run of their country, setting up training camps for a wanted international terrorist organization It is completely irrelevant as to whether they were being paid for it or not.

You were able to copy the statement, paste it and highlight it but were apparently unable to understand it.

 

[dan-o]

All the taliban did was allow AQ to operate within their borders after it was flushed from Sudan. AQ provided the taliban with the financing and physical clout needed to maintain control over the country. This is evidenced by the complete lack of support they received by the general population when the US attacked which led to their immediate collapse.

Beyond the soil within the borders of afghanistan itself, the Taliban had nothing to offer. So enlighten me, is that soil the infrastructure or the huge portion of material support?

 

[ohio]

My point was "you're wrong".

If I'm a serial killer, and you know I'm a serial killer, and I pay you to give me chloroform, gags, empty warehouse space, phone numbers and addresses of young women, and to hide me from the police, does the fact that I'm paying you make it okay for you to give me those things?

 

[Changleen]

If I'm a serial killer, and you know I'm a serial killer, and I pay you to give me chloroform, gags, empty warehouse space, phone numbers and addresses of young women, and to hide me from the police, does the fact that I'm paying you make it okay for you to give me those things?

If your name was Ariel Sharon and mine was George Bush apparantly it would.

 

[dan-o]

If I'm a serial killer, and you know I'm a serial killer, and I pay you to give me chloroform, gags, empty warehouse space, phone numbers and addresses of young women, and to hide me from the police, does the fact that I'm paying you make it okay for you to give me those things?

Since Sudan offered to extradite BL to any nation prepared to try him, but none including the US accepted, he would be a suspected serial killer in your analogy. The Taliban also did not supply the training, financing or logistics for 9/11 or other AQ acts, they technically just leased space.

So, is the landlord in your analogy (who merely supplied space) guilty of your crimes once you commit and admit to them? When the cops raid the warehouse does the landlord lose possession just because a tenent committed a crime?

 

[ohio]

Since Sudan offered to extradite BL to any nation prepared to try him, but none including the US accepted

???
first time I've heard that.

when? clinton era?

 

[dan-o]

1996
Here is a link outlining the events: http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0144/gould.php
There was also a similar story in the washington post around the same time. That's now an archived article that I don't feel like paying to access.

 

[DRB]

Since Sudan offered to extradite BL to any nation prepared to try him, but none including the US accepted, he would be a suspected serial killer in your analogy. The Taliban also did not supply the training, financing or logistics for 9/11 or other AQ acts, they technically just leased space.

So, is the landlord in your analogy (who merely supplied space) guilty of your crimes once you commit and admit to them? When the cops raid the warehouse does the landlord lose possession just because a tenent committed a crime?

If the landlord had turned over the criminal at the time of admission then fine, however if they don't it turns into harboring a fugitive, obstruction of justice and potentially accessory after the fact. However, when the landlord has knowledge of the activities of the tennant but does nothing its accessory and in some circumstances can be considered conspiracy.

However, your landlord analogy isn't any good, and is certainly not what Ohio described, as the two were joined at the hip. To think that one was doing anything the other was unaware of is naive at best.

1996 when AQ moved their main base of operations into Afghanistan (they had actually been there since the Soviet invasion) their main form of financial support was coming from two streams. One, was the money they were getting from Arab charities but not so much. The second source which grew quite substantially until 2000 was the Taliban. The Taliban was funneling funds from their drug (opium growing) trade to the AQ. Also at the time the Taliban was also receiving money from Arab charities. During these years, the AQ was providing manpower support and training to the Taliban for consolidation of the power base and even helped put then in power as they consolidated control of the country.

It was once the AQ and Taliban could survive on the finances collected from charities that the crack down occurred on the opium trade in 2000.

 

[DRB]

1996
Here is a link outlining the events: http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0144/gould.php
There was also a similar story in the washington post around the same time. That's now an archived article that I don't feel like paying to access.

More to the story huh. But even more interesting notice how the negative comments and critique aren't sited?

because the FBI did not believe it had sufficient evidence to try Bin Laden in a U.S. court—and Saudi Arabia refused Washington's request to arrest and even execute the terrorist, the U.S. demanded that Bin Laden leave Sudan for any other country except Somalia.

Forgoing the opportunity to arrest Bin Laden was "not the most brilliant maneuver we've ever made," notes another former intelligence chief familiar with the story. "But everything looks good in hindsight."

If they had taken him into custody, wouldn't they be in the same position as they are with the Gitmo detainees?

In hindsight it was a bad mistake to that there is no doubt. But what does it have to do with Afghanistan and the Taliban?