[Downhiller]

hybrids are gonna rule the world no more v-8 engines we will drive on duracell batteries



"NEW YORK - The city's yellow taxi fleet will go entirely hybrid within five years, Mayor Michael Bloomberg announced Tuesday. ADVERTISEMENT



"There's an awful lot of taxicabs on the streets of New York City," Bloomberg said. "These cars just sit there in traffic sometimes, belching fumes.

"This does a lot less. It's a lot better for all of us," he said of the hybrid plan.

Nearly 400 fuel-efficient hybrids have been tested in the city's taxi fleet over the past 18 months, with models including the Toyota Prius, the Toyota Highlander Hybrid, the Lexus RX 400h and the Ford Escape.

Under Bloomberg's plan, that number will increase to 1,000 by October 2008, then will grow by about 20 percent each year until 2012, when every yellow cab — currently numbering 13,000 — will be a hybrid.

Hybrid vehicles run on a combination of gasoline and electricity, emitting less exhaust and achieving higher gas mileage per gallon.

The standard yellow cab vehicle, the Ford Crown Victoria, gets 14 miles per gallon. In contrast, the Ford Escape taxis get 36 miles per gallon.

In addition to making the yellow cab brigade entirely green within five years, the city will require all new vehicles entering the fleet after October 2008 to achieve a minimum of 25 miles per gallon. A year later, all new vehicles must get 30 miles per gallon and be hybrid. Bloomberg made the announcement on NBC's "Today" show.

Hybrid vehicles are typically more expensive, but the city said the increase in fuel efficiency will save taxi operators more than $10,000 per year. Yahoo Inc. (Nasdaq:YHOO - news) said it would donate 10 hybrid Ford Escapes for the city's effort.

Shifting the taxi fleet to hybrids is part of Bloomberg's wider sustainability plan for the city, which includes a goal of a 30 percent reduction in carbon emissions by 2030. Part of the plan could include congestion pricing for drivers entering some of the busiest parts of Manhattan.

Turning over the taxi fleet by 2012 is not an impossible goal. The life of a New York City taxi is typically about three to five years; the city's Taxi and Limousine Commission requires all vehicles to be retired within a certain time frame.

Fernando Mateo, president of the New York State Federation of Taxi Drivers, an advocacy trade group, applauded the city's effort to go green.

"In the short term, they're going to have to spend more money, but in the long run they will save money," he said. "We support getting more hybrids on the road."

The government does not own the city's yellow cabs, but sells licenses to individual drivers and operators, who must purchase their own vehicles that meet the specifications of the Taxi and Limousine Commission. The agency serves as the regulating and licensing authority for all vehicles per hire in the city."

 

[Mike B.]

How unfortunate.

Save energy, buy a Hummer
Leland Teschler, Editor

People who subscribe to catastrophic global-warming scenarios sometimes buy hybrid vehicles to do their part in saving the planet. As for me, I'd be more likely to buy a Hummer if I thought man-made global warming was a real problem. The reason is simple. Though hybrids have much higher fuel efficiency, their overall energy cost exceeds that of SUVs, including the Hummer. The overall energy cost of the Honda Accord hybrid, for example, is $3.29/mile; for the Hummer H3 it's $1.949/mile.

This interesting statistic comes from CNW Marketing Research Inc., which spent two years collecting data on how much energy it takes to plan, build, use, and dispose of specific vehicle makes and models. CNW's figures on energy use are impressively inclusive. They factor in such details as the distance auto-plant employees drive to work, electricity usage at car dealerships, and literally hundreds of other variables.

The 479-page study is free and well worth digging into. Readers will find, for example, that the fuel a car burns over its lifetime isn't the largest portion of its energy use, just the most visible. Also interesting is that energy consumed during manufacturing makes up only a small part of the total energy cost/mile.

And it's easy to get tripped up calculating energy use. Toyota, for example, says it reduced by 30% the energy it consumes to build vehicles in Japan. But CNW says Toyota's claims ignore the energy demands of its suppliers building full-module components. In some cases, the energy requirements of these suppliers actually exceed those of Toyota had the automaker kept the work in-house.

It also becomes clear why hybrids don't score well on lifetime energy use. The first generation of hybrids is likely to be scrapped earlier than comparable ordinary vehicles, simply because first-generation technology rapidly loses maintenance support. Repairs quickly become a losing proposition.

Hybrid components are also more expensive to make and recycle. H2 Hummers, for instance, have about $800 worth of medium-weight steel, which takes about $200 worth of energy to produce. The steel is easily recycled. The infrastructure to do so has been in place for decades. But the Prius has lightweight steel and steel composites that cost about $585 and take roughly $230 worth of energy to produce. Disposal of this metal is more energy intensive than that in the Hummer though there is less of it.

The complexity of hybrids and their relatively low volumes also works against them when repairing accident damage. A Prius, for example, needs nearly three times more time and twice as many parts costing nearly nine times more than a comparable small car in an identical accident. Complexity also takes a toll during design and development. The energy to design and develop a Prius runs $29,000/vehicle. For a Corolla, it's just $2,600.

All in all, the report points the way for those who truly want to minimize planet-wide energy use. The clear choice is a used original VW Beetle. Its overall energy cost is a mere $0.05/mile.

 

[urbaindk]

How unfortunate.

Save energy, buy a Hummer
Leland Teschler, Editor.

And you shouldn't recycle either. Some recycling processes require more energy than starting from raw materials. I say let the garbage pile up in the streets or ship it to some third world country for their poor to sift through.

 

[syadasti]

How unfortunate, people actually take the marketing studies over research from real research labs. The truth lies somewhere inbetween the two, but its probably more inline with the research labs rather than this marketing firm. Its fledging technology and obviously when it becomes more mainstream and matures it will improve. Traditional ICE drivetrains are about as mature as they are going to get.

Here is a response from the otherside of the coin:

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.
Okay a quick search on Sudbury reveils that mining has been going on there since the late 1880's. There probably wasn't much thought of pollution back then. The search also revealed that NASA did use the area during the time of the Apollo missions because...The area is a 1.85 billion year old meteor impact site where there are shatter cones present. What the hell are shatter cones? Well they are rare rock formations that occur from meteor impacts like you would find on...oh I don't know...maybe the moon. So if you were planning on going there you might want to familiarize yourself with what you might see. Now the dead zone is from all the acid rain, but like I said there wasn't a whole lot of thought to environmental impact back then. However, in the 1970's an effort was made to clean up the area and over 20 years they planted 3 million trees. They even won an environmental award for their efforts from the U.N.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.
1,000 tons sounds like a lot doesn't it. It certainly did to me. Until I looked up the mines figures. Last year the mine produced 80,000 tons of nickel same as the year before, which was down from the previous years when production was 110,000 tons. So check my math, but I'm pretty sure that's 1.25% of their total production. And wait they have actually mined less since hybrids became more popular? Huh. Also, as you might think the Sudbury mine is not the only nickel mine in the world. As a matter of fact the worlds production was 1,000,000 tons last year. 42% of that goes into specialty metals like Stainless steel, 38% into nonferrous alloys, 14% into coatings, and the remaining 6% into coins, NiCD & NiMH batteries, coatings and colorants.

The CNW marketing study (funded by players in the auto industry) which is the basis for the CCSU article's conclusions appear to be very different from the results of several other rigorous, scientifically-reviewed studies of the lifecycle impact of vehicles including those from Argonne National Laboratory and Massachusetts Institute of Technology. These studies conclude that the majority (80-85%) of the total lifetime energy use of a vehicle comes from the driving stage, with the remainder coming from the remaining stages of a vehicle life, whereas the CNW based article shows these percentages to be reversed.

Also this is a good point from a reader of this marketing "study":

The biggest bullsh*t thing I read in there was that a Toyota is only expected to get 100,000 miles and a hummer POS is expected to get 300,000 miles??? Ok, it's new technology. But if things go in the same direction that's typical for Toyota, they'll exceed their expectations by far. If that's true, how come the Prius was rated as the highest resale vehicle on the market recently? As for the hummer, to accomplish the goal of 300,000 miles I'm curious how many engines, transmissions, and whatever else it's going to go through?

Toyota's hybrid drivetrain is warrantied for much longer than their regular drivetrains. They also license their hybrid technology to Ford and Nissan in current productions models because neither brand had the expertise to make one on their own yet.

GM's hybrids aren't anything special, so called "mild hybrids" - the real bull**** of the hybrid market, but they have a two-mode finally coming later this year and I think a plug-in version in 2009 or 2010.

wikipedia
-A full hybrid, sometimes also called a strong hybrid, is a vehicle that can run on just the engine, just the batteries, or a combination of both. The Prius and Escape Hybrids are examples of this, as both cars can be moved forward on battery power alone

-Power assist hybrids use the engine for primary power, with a torque-boosting electric motor also connected to a largely conventional powertrain. The electric motor, mounted between the engine and transmission, is essentially a very large starter motor, which operates not only when the engine needs to be turned over, but also when the driver "steps on the gas" and requires extra power. The electric motor may also be used to re-start the combustion engine, deriving the same benefits from shutting down the main engine at idle, while the enhanced battery system is used to power accessories. (honda uses this)

-Mild hybrids are essentially conventional vehicles with oversized starter motors, allowing the engine to be turned off whenever the car is coasting, braking, or stopped, yet restart quickly and cleanly. Accessories can continue to run on electrical power while the engine is off, and as in other hybrid designs, the motor is used for regenerative braking to recapture energy. The larger motor is used to spin up the engine to operating rpm speeds before injecting any fuel.

Many people do not consider these to be hybrids at all, and these vehicles do not achieve the fuel economy of full hybrid models. A major example is the 2005 Chevrolet Silverado Hybrid, a full-size pickup truck. Chevrolet was able to get a 10% improvement on the Silverado's fuel efficiency by shutting down and restarting the engine on demand. Mild hybrids often use 42 volt systems to supply the power needed for the startup motor, as well as to compensate for the increasing number of electronic accessories on modern vehicles.

-A plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) is a full hybrid, able to run in electric-only mode, with larger batteries and the ability to recharge from the electric power grid. They are also called gas-optional, or griddable hybrids. Their main benefit is that they can be gasoline-independent for daily commuting, but also have the extended range of a hybrid for long trips. They can also be multi-fuel, with the electric power supplemented by diesel, biodiesel, or hydrogen. The Electric Power Research Institute's research indicates a lower total cost of ownership for PHEVs due to reduced service costs and gradually improving batteries. The "well-to-wheel" efficiency and emissions of PHEVs compared to gasoline hybrids depends on the energy sources of the grid (the US grid is 50% coal; California's grid is primarily natural gas, hydroelectric power, and wind power). Particular interest in PHEVs is in California where a "million solar homes" initiative is under way, and global warming legislation has been enacted.

One of the other cool technologies is the hydraulic hybrid. UPS and the US Army is currently testing vehicles with this drivetrain (best suited to larger vehicles). You can check out the NYT article here.

NYT
The prototype truck has a 6-liter V-8 diesel engine but Eaton engineers say that with the hybrid system it could use a much smaller engine and still get the same performance; soon they will try a 4.5-liter V-6. But even using the existing engine, the truck is expected save about 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel a year, the company says.

Wikipedia
Hydraulic hybrid

A hydraulic hybrid vehicle uses hydraulic and mechanical components instead of electrical ones. A variable displacement pump replaces the motor/generator, and a hydraulic accumulator (which stores energy as highly compressed nitrogen gas) replaces the batteries. The hydraulic accumulator, which is essentially a pressure tank, is potentially cheaper and more durable than batteries. Hydraulic hybrid technology was originally developed by Volvo Flygmotor and was used experimentally in buses from the early 1980s and is still an active area.

Initial concept involved a giant flywheel for storage connected to a hydrostatic transmission, but it was later changed to a simpler system using a hydraulic accumulator connected to a hydraulic pump/motor. It is also being actively developed by Eaton and several other companies, primarily in heavy vehicles like buses, trucks and military vehicles. An example is the Ford F-350 Mighty Tonka concept truck shown in 2002. It features an Eaton system that can accelerate the truck up to highway speeds.

 

[maxyedor]

Either way you looks at it a switch to hybrids is retarded. Any idea how many ex-taxi Crown Vics will be scrapped as a result of the switch? Any idea how sh1tty the milage on a hybrid is compared to a deisle?

I borrowed a freinds f350 to tow a trailer about 1000 miles a couple weeks ago, that giant thing towing 7k lbs and with another 1000 in the bed averaged 18mpg, an Escape hyrid gets right around a claimed 30ish carrying much less weight, and won't last half as long, some of the compact deisles in Europe get a solid 50+mpg in normal driving conditions, I've never met a hybrid owner whos milage comes close to that. The better fuel milage isn't even what makes a deisle a better choice, biodeisle is. Bio is 100% renewable, and as emissions tech. gets better, it's getting to be nearly as clean as gas engines. Not to mention all that corn that the US government pays farmers to grow, then subsidises it's transformation into ethanol (a horribly inefficient fuel source), all that corn could be made into canola oil and be used as a renewable fuel source for heavy machinery and large trucks accross the country.

But hey, why do something logical when hybrids make people feel good?

 

[pinkshirtphotos]

yeah and hillary clinton will be president

 

[syadasti]

Oh yes, progress is bad, only retards would want technology to improve.

Cars are some of the most well established recycled machines around and they never said they are scrapping them - they aren't that beatup - they'll sell them off.

Here is some rocket science for your max they have diesel hybrids in the pipeline too! They've made prototypes in electric (small vehicles) and hydraulic (large vehicles). What a concept! Small diesel can get around 40mpg (50 UK mpg) in average conditions but most vehicles are smaller in Europe so its not really that much better and a hybrid of the same size would be comparable and thats not taking into account the latest generation from Toyota.

Lets compare US midsize with the latest green technology from gasoline hybrid and diesel - these meet more stringent EPA car emissions - that why there currently mostly trucks in the US - the emissions out the tailpipe are too dirty to meet car standards:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ratings2008.shtml

2007 Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec Diesel: 23/32 - 26 combined (2008 EPA Standards)
2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid: 33/34 - 34 combined (2008 EPA standards)

Looks like your diesel needs 130% boost to match the Hybrid in average usage.

Hey you know what, Mercedes is developing Bluetec Diesel Hybrids too, how about that!

 

[Toshi]

How unfortunate.

Save energy, buy a Hummer
Leland Teschler, Editor

that study is pure BS: they drew up a 300k lifespan for the H2 and a 100k lifespan for the prius out of thin air. take away that assumption and then their results are WORTHLESS.

and, as for the comment about throwing away crown vics: did you not read the article? the taxi fleet is turned over every few years anyway by regulation, and this phased rollout is designed exactly to avoid that kind of waste.

 

[Mike B.]

I posted the article to stir the pot, it was actually an editorial from machinedesign.com, mission accomplished I guess. I'm not ready to buy a hybrid but I'm tired of buying gas (I only drive 6-8k miles/yr). I've commuted by bike or foot roughly 95% of the time this year.

 

[Toshi]

don't stir the pot if all you have to stir with is a stick made out of solidified feces.

 

[Skookum]

don't stir the pot if all you have to stir with is a stick made out of solidified feces.

Unless he intends to make a vehicle that can run on sticks made out of solidified feces?

 

[Sandwich]

k anyways...

too bad most of those cars are SUVs...wtf? Why not make them compacts and save even more energy? Am I the only one that thinks a city further filled with SUVs with poor visibility and poor pedestrian impact dynamics is a bad idea? I'd much rather get hit by a vic than an escape.

That being said, what's the time limit on phasing out old taxis? Some of the taxis here in BOS are pure crap, bald tires, weak suspension, bad exhausts...I know some toyotas last forever, but I wonder what the durability of these will be with a bunch of angry foreigners banging them around potholes all day?

 

[syadasti]

k anyways...

too bad most of those cars are SUVs...wtf? Why not make them compacts and save even more energy? Am I the only one that thinks a city further filled with SUVs with poor visibility and poor pedestrian impact dynamics is a bad idea? I'd much rather get hit by a vic than an escape.

You need room to cart passengers around and they don't have minivan hybrids yet. Perhaps they should go full size sedan like the vic - lets see - there we have the luxury 2008 Lexus LS 600hL (V12 performance with V8 fuel economy - nope not environmentally friendly)! Camry would be possible but it cost more than the Escape and has less room and its a foot longer (same weight though). 08 Highlander might work but its bigger and more expensive.

Sorry but a Crown Vic weighs almost 1000 lbs more than an Escape hybrid - the poorer brake, significantly bigger footprint, and larger mass would still worse. Its turning radius is almost 10% larger than the Escape. Its RWD so its not as safe in the winter. It has less cargo capacity if the passengers have luggage. The vic is over 20% longer and 10% wider. The mileage is also over 65% better than the vic.

On the otherhand the vic would be less likely to roll over and has more room for fat asses.

 

[BMXman]

well it's about time...I would say about 90% of the Taxis here are hybrids or powered by Propane ....D

 

[Sandwich]

dude, i'm not saying keep the crown vic, hippy.

I'm just saying they could have picked a bette vehicle than the ford escape; or, why can't ford make a hybrid that's a sedan?

I'll also argue that any car driving at city speeds (at or below 30mph) doesn't need 14" disk brakes. Cabbies just jam on their brakes anyways, so as long as it's sufficient to lock the wheels, one is as good as the next. Lastly, RWD is not safer than FWD, if you know how to drive the car and have adequate tires. FWD just doesn't spin like RWD does, making it easier for cellphone chatting, text messaging 14 year old girls to drive. They both suck in the snow (hi AWD) but are both manageable with snow tires.

 

[maxyedor]

Oh yes, progress is bad, only retards would want technology to improve.

I'm just saying perhaps we should advance technology in a usefull direction rather than advancement for the sake of advancement, and to make Cameron Diaz and Leonardo DiCaprio feel better, sound fair? Hybrid technology is great, but when coupled with gasoline it rather asinine. As for selling off the current NY taxi fleet, who's going to buy thousands of bright yellow ex-taxi Crown Vics? Also what do we do with the tens of thousands of pounds of left-over dead batteries when the hybrid taxi fleet needs replacements, they aren't cheap, easy or clean to recycle.

Also your comparison of a Camry and an E class is a little misleading, the E class is a much larger and heavier car than the Camry, if you're going to try and call me out for comparing a small European deisel to a larger American hybrid, at least make reasonable comparisons yourself.

And now we wait for Sydasti to post some more clips from articles from all over the internet, while NY cabbies prepare to go from a Crown Vic to an Escape that gets an earth saving 34mpg or less (probably much much less in NY trafic), and I comtinue to surf the internet on my Mac looking for the perfect fullsize Deisel truck to build a 1400 class race-truck out of that will run on old french fry oil, when I need more gas I just eat more frys, it's a win-win.

 

[Toshi]

camry and the e class are both epa designated as midsize. it's a fair comparison.

toyota has had a battery recycling program in place for the prius since its inception. dont' know about the other makes, but i'd imagine they'd have to follow suit. google if you're curious about the specifics.

and, finally, the fleet is turned over every few years as it is, so your argument about "selling off the current NY taxi fleet" is irrelevant.

 

[BikeMike]

We certainly have an interesting discussion here.

Hybrid technology is a good idea, but I think it still has a ways to go. Same with electric. I'd like to see someone compile the environmental and economic costs of the hybrid (and electric) car battery manufacture and recycling processes and compare it to the costs of burning some extra gas.

I also think that biofuels, at least in their current conception, are not a great "green/earth-friendly" energy solution. Putsing around on french fry oil is great for a few people, but it's not going to propel everyone. And ethanol through corn production is not all butterflies and prairie hens. Pumping out boatloads of corn sucks for the environment too, though them corn folks have a d@mn good lobby and manage to keep it mostly quiet (and get silly subsidies).