[Toshi]

@Full Trucker @rideit @kidwoo @Jm_ and other ski-monkeys:

I'm actually semi-contemplating getting an alpine touring setup for such Saturdays as last. I think I'd honestly rather skin up the mountain and do one or two runs rather than wait in lines.

what'd y'all recommend? I have no experience at all in this realm, alpine only for me in my 41 years thus far. My daily driver setup these days is Tecnica Ten.2 120, Look Pivot 14, K2 Mindbender 108 Ti fwiw. I'd rather have skis on the charger side of the spectrum rather than noodles, if that's a choice with lighter AT gear.

for reading this far:

Pioneer line last Saturday

Powder the Saturday before that, at least

 

[kidwoo]

I buy the skis you want to ski, and decide which bindings make the most sense to you. Pin/tech style are way better to hike with, step in alpine style are better to ski with because they let the ski flex under your foot a little better.

Stay away from the super lightweight shit. Like bikes, stuff made for uphill sucks for the thing that you're actually going uphill for.

I use atomic shift bindings and an old CAST setup that's just alpine bindings with a swappable dynafit toe. The CAST stuff is heavy but awesome to actually ski with. The shift bindings are fine for a dedicated bc setup. Don't think you're getting a 'best of all worlds' and beat the shit of out of ANY bc binding at the resort. They fall apart. Marker dukes are probably the only exception but those things suck.

If you just want to make old man squiggle turns in always good snow, a lightweight tech style setup is fine. But definitely keep that skit out of the resort. We have stories....

 

[rideit]

Very, very obvious, but I would spend more time and energy making sure the boot fits perfectly, and then think about skis and bindings. I have had good experiences with Dynafit myself, but I'm principally a split-boarder, SO I don't know bupkis.

 

[Nick]

if you buy/borrow/steal a boot with tech fittings you can probably try a few skis I have.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Just stay on Iron Horse on days like that.

 

[Full Trucker]

You know they haven't perfected e-Skis yet, right? You're gonna have to walk up that hill on 100% Toshi power.

Pretty much everything Woo said, especially this part...

I buy the skis you want to ski, and decide which bindings make the most sense to you.

I remember when I switched from snowboarding to skiing specifically to get into touring and backcountry, I was asking one of the guys at Bent Gate about skis for backcountry and he said "The skis you want to ski in bounds are the skis you want in the backcountry." That resonated with me, and the comparison to mountain bikes is spot on: stuff made for going uphill sucks for doing the thing you went up the hill to do.

I ski Shifts on all my "in bounds" skis and have a pair of slightly lighter but still nice skiing pair of skis with lighter weight tech binding for pure backcountry days and hut trips and such. The Shifts have worked great for me as a daily driver, I've had one pair for seven seasons now with no issues. I do this because there was a time when the skis with Shifts were my only skis, so they needed to do it all. I still do it because I like the flexibility of going out a backcountry gate and being able to tour further or tour back if needed, and they make for good travel skis when I'm not sure if I'll be 100% in bounds or we'll get out for a tour. Shifts as daily drivers doesn't work for everyone, mind you, there are plenty of stories of them exploding.

Another good option for a 50/50 type of binding might be the Fritchi Tecton. But I generally agree that skiing a lightweight tech binding in bounds is asking for trouble.

A frame touring binding (Marker Duke/Baron, Salomon Guardian, etc.) will allow you to ski uphill in your current alpine boots, but man will that suck. Assuming your alpine boots have no walk mode, are a performance fit, and are heavy... then add the heaviness of a framed touring binder... ugh. That said, if you're only gonna do it a few times a year, it might be fine for those days.

I'll echo @rideit's assertion about boots: just like an alpine boot spend the time to get an AT boot that fits well and works for your intended purpose.

I'm personally most comfortable in a 50/50 type of boot vs. something more touring oriented: one that has tech fittings and a walk/hike mode but is still made of good plastic, has a nice progressive and firm flex, and has some damping to it. I've found that for me this means ~1900-2000g boot. I tried going with a lighter boot ~1600g and just didn't get along with how they skied. Granted, I've only ever tried one boot in that weight range and some other brand or model in that weight might ski great. But I liked the fit of that lighter boot (just didn't like how it skied) and so I bought the heavier version of it and have been super happy. I ski a Lange XT3 in a 130 flex, the lighter boot that felt noodly was the XT3 Tour Pro.

It should also be noted that I have never owned or skied a true alpine only boot, so I don't know the performance I'm missing by always skiing something with tech inserts and a walk mode. But some people do say even the "heavier" 50/50 boots won't ski as well as a pure alpine boot.

 

[Full Trucker]

Also just a bit of clarification... the Marker Duke that sucks is the frame one that looks like this:

It's basically an alpine binding that sits on a hinged frame, you unlock the back of the thing and then the entire binding can pivot to skin uphill. But there's also the Duke PT which is more a Shift-style binding that "converts" from an alpine-type binding for skiing into a tech-toe style for skinning.

2020-2021 Marker Duke PT 16 - Blister Gear Review

 

[6thElement]

You know they haven't perfected e-Skis yet, right? You're gonna have to walk up that hill on 100% Toshi power.

Pretty much everything Woo said, especially this part...



I remember when I switched from snowboarding to skiing specifically to get into touring and backcountry, I was asking one of the guys at Bent Gate about skis for backcountry and he said "The skis you want to ski in bounds are the skis you want in the backcountry." That resonated with me, and the comparison to mountain bikes is spot on: stuff made for going uphill sucks for doing the thing you went up the hill to do.

I ski Shifts on all my "in bounds" skis and have a pair of slightly lighter but still nice skiing pair of skis with lighter weight tech binding for pure backcountry days and hut trips and such. The Shifts have worked great for me as a daily driver, I've had one pair for seven seasons now with no issues. I do this because there was a time when the skis with Shifts were my only skis, so they needed to do it all. I still do it because I like the flexibility of going out a backcountry gate and being able to tour further or tour back if needed, and they make for good travel skis when I'm not sure if I'll be 100% in bounds or we'll get out for a tour. Shifts as daily drivers doesn't work for everyone, mind you, there are plenty of stories of them exploding.

Another good option for a 50/50 type of binding might be the Fritchi Tecton. But I generally agree that skiing a lightweight tech binding in bounds is asking for trouble.

A frame touring binding (Marker Duke/Baron, Salomon Guardian, etc.) will allow you to ski uphill in your current alpine boots, but man will that suck. Assuming your alpine boots have no walk mode, are a performance fit, and are heavy... then add the heaviness of a framed touring binder... ugh. That said, if you're only gonna do it a few times a year, it might be fine for those days.

I'll echo @rideit's assertion about boots: just like an alpine boot spend the time to get an AT boot that fits well and works for your intended purpose.

I'm personally most comfortable in a 50/50 type of boot vs. something more touring oriented: one that has tech fittings and a walk/hike mode but is still made of good plastic, has a nice progressive and firm flex, and has some damping to it. I've found that for me this means ~1900-2000g boot. I tried going with a lighter boot ~1600g and just didn't get along with how they skied. Granted, I've only ever tried one boot in that weight range and some other brand or model in that weight might ski great. But I liked the fit of that lighter boot (just didn't like how it skied) and so I bought the heavier version of it and have been super happy. I ski a Lange XT3 in a 130 flex, the lighter boot that felt noodly was the XT3 Tour Pro.

It should also be noted that I have never owned or skied a true alpine only boot, so I don't know the performance I'm missing by always skiing something with tech inserts and a walk mode. But some people do say even the "heavier" 50/50 boots won't ski as well as a pure alpine boot.

TLDR

Get the red ones.

 

[Full Trucker]

Get the pink ones.

FTFY

 

[Nick]

Another good option for a 50/50 type of binding might be the Fritchi Tecton. But I generally agree that skiing a lightweight tech binding in bounds is asking for trouble.

I own Shifts and Tectons, and the Tectons ski as well as the Shift or even alpine bindings on everything but shit-fuck conditions.

 

[Full Trucker]

I own Shifts and Tectons, and the Tectons ski as well as the Shift or even alpine bindings on everything but shit-fuck conditions.

Tecton is the only pin toe binding that I would ever consider using as a daily driver in bounds. The way it releases in multiple directions is really smart, IMO.

 

[6thElement]

The way it releases in multiple directions is really smart, IMO.

Casual and racing, SMRT

 

[slyfink]

View attachment 188844

is that the ski base in the bottom left?!

 

[Toshi]

Ok, so I’m hearing Tectons, another Mindbender 108 Ti pair, and get fitted by Larry’s bootfitting with something non-wimpy. Reasonable summary?

What do I need to know about skins? Other than they come off once you’re up

 

[Toshi]

You know they haven't perfected e-Skis yet, right? You're gonna have to walk up that hill on 100% Toshi power.

I’ll just bring my lactate monitor in my pocket and make sure I stay in The Zone

 

[SkaredShtles]

Srsly, though - skinning up a ski area on a weekend is not particularly wise - especially one as busy as Wanker Park.

Just use the Iron Horse lift on those shitshow days. You can get to almost all the good terrain on the Jane from there.

 

[Full Trucker]

I'd try Bent Gate and/or Powder 7 before Larry's TBH. I've personally had better experience's at those places than Larry's, and I believe between those two shops you'll have a great range of boots to try. If that Technica works for your foot, maybe start there? The Cochise is a popular 50/50 boot, the Zero G is also popular but more touring oriented. I've skied neither, but pretty sure @Nick has Zero Gs.

Skins. You'll need them to go up, and correct you take them off at the top to ski down. Some have more glide, others have more traction. Some are in the middle. Probably getting some that are in the middle is just fine as you're not likely to be carrying a huge heavy pack or dealing with deep or weird snow (since it sounds like you'll be mainly inbounds) or other scenarios where more grip/traction would be mo'bettah. I've never used them, but everyone who has tried Pomoca skins swears by them.

I don't disagree with @SkaredShtles that skinning up a busy ski area can be a terrible idea, but assumably if Wanker Park allows it during operating hours they've taken downhill traffic into consideration when they set the uphill routes. And if you're ever going to ski in the backcountry for the love of @FSM get some avy education before doing so, and find partners with some experience that you can learn from.

I’ll just bring my lactate monitor in my pocket and make sure I stay in The Zone

SMRT.

(You might only get one lap, though...)

 

[SkaredShtles]

I don't disagree with @SkaredShtles that skinning up a busy ski area can be a terrible idea, but assumably if Wanker Park allows it during operating hours they've taken downhill traffic into consideration when they set the uphill routes.

They haven’t... or if they have, people are disregarding them.

People skinning the Mary Jane run and Sleeper? That's fuckin' dumb AND dangerous, given the sheer quantity of skilless beaters coming down those runs.

 

[Toshi]

Srsly, though - skinning up a ski area on a weekend is not particularly wise - especially one as busy as Wanker Park.

Just use the Iron Horse lift on those shitshow days. You can get to almost all the good terrain on the Jane from there.

They haven’t... or if they have, people are disregarding them.

People skinning the Mary Jane run and Sleeper? That's fuckin' dumb AND dangerous, given the sheer quantity of skilless beaters coming down those runs.

I have to be at the Winter Park base to drop off kids at Devo, Devo, and lessons, respectively. Timing just doesn't work out to park at MJ and go down the cat track, either, especially with the 4 year old's speed.

I'd try Bent Gate and/or Powder 7 before Larry's TBH. I've personally had better experience's at those places than Larry's, and I believe between those two shops you'll have a great range of boots to try. If that Technica works for your foot, maybe start there? The Cochise is a popular 50/50 boot, the Zero G is also popular but more touring oriented. I've skied neither, but pretty sure @Nick has Zero Gs.

Skins. You'll need them to go up, and correct you take them off at the top to ski down. Some have more glide, others have more traction. Some are in the middle. Probably getting some that are in the middle is just fine as you're not likely to be carrying a huge heavy pack or dealing with deep or weird snow (since it sounds like you'll be mainly inbounds) or other scenarios where more grip/traction would be mo'bettah. I've never used them, but everyone who has tried Pomoca skins swears by them.

I don't disagree with @SkaredShtles that skinning up a busy ski area can be a terrible idea, but assumably if Wanker Park allows it during operating hours they've taken downhill traffic into consideration when they set the uphill routes. And if you're ever going to ski in the backcountry for the love of @FSM get some avy education before doing so, and find partners with some experience that you can learn from.


SMRT.

(You might only get one lap, though...)

My thought with Larry's is that I'll need a lot of shell and liner work. My Tecnicas started out as a 104 mm last and were punched out significantly wider. I have feet shaped like mallets apparently. Powder7 can heat up my liner, sure, but Larry did much more than that ultimately...

Re where: looks like a $25 armband and only minimal places are closed, thus the idiocy one sees all over the place:

https://www.winterparkresort.com/-/media/winter-park/winter-2223/maps/2223_winteruphillmap.pdf?rev=59a84ef6601440128cc41ca0d3e3d182

so the chutes dropping off Roundhouse are closed for uphill access, and two of the terrain parks are closed (duh--but not Ash Cat?!) but everything else is fair game apparently.

I think a good morning workout on a groomer-snow day would be base to top of Cranmer, then back down the frontside. or skin back up the Corridor cat track to Iron Horse heh. Life would be different if Winter Park had a competent bus system a la Copper.

 

[Full Trucker]

skilless beaters

I feel attacked.

 

[SkaredShtles]

I have to be at the Winter Park base to drop off kids at Devo, Devo, and lessons, respectively. Timing just doesn't work out to park at MJ and go down the cat track, either, especially with the 4 year old's speed.

You don't have to do any of that - singles line at the Gondola after you drop the rugrats off, Outhouse -> Iron Horse, then IH repeats until it's time to go. Cat track back to WP base.

Watch out for uphill skinners on that cat track, though. Fuckin' morans.

 

[Toshi]

You don't have to do any of that - singles line at the Gondola after you drop the rugrats off, Outhouse -> Iron Horse, then IH repeats until it's time to go. Cat track back to WP base.

Watch out for uphill skinners on that cat track, though. Fuckin' morans.

hmm

this is not a bad idea. and when I'm skiing with my wife we're stuck with the lines anyway so I wouldn't avoid them then.

the elder one has some wisdom it appears

 

[Full Trucker]

You could also consider just picking up a set of used skis with frame bindings to try it out. Something like this setup would be enough to let you give'r a go and you wouldn't need new boots to try it. Granted, that setup wouldn't be ideal but it'd get you a taste to see if you enjoyed it enough to invest more.

 

[SkaredShtles]

I feel attacked.

 

[Jm_]

I use Marker Tour F12 bindings. The kingpin stuff is interesting, but I've seen the lighter weight AT stuff break out on tours, specifically heel bindings, from a few different companies, Viole and a few others. My Technica Cochise 120s are not super heavy. Basically, don't be bitch too much as far as weight, swinging weight (at the extremities) due to length and overall ski weight are more concerning to me. I also have a downhill setup and downhill boots, so I can switch out and use my Technicas with those skis if I want, or even my other boots with my BC skis if I needed to. I kinda like that interchangability and I have skied with the Technicas and my other DH powder skis. Also, there are typically more boots I can try on and fit to get as close as possible to a well fitting boot I can spend all day in.

If I were to do it all again, would I get something like Kingpin and Scarpa DF setup? I don't know...I'm definitely not saying it's needed. Yesterday I did a few runs at the ski hill, and side-country-ed the rest of the time. I thought my setup was perfect for that.

For skis, I have the Black Crowes, the model I got does not have the more rocker tip on their current stuff. It should have the rocker tip IMO. They are relatively stiff and are good for hard-charging when visibility is good and you got good conditions for some speed. They don't like slow speed as much though and I can make do, not horrible, but I have a friend that likes the softest ski possible and I see a lot of logic in that. Our visibility is often horrible and you just can't charge that hard. The more rockered skis also turn better on steep stuff (and everywhere) obviously. Overall I'd give these skis an 8/10, they ain't bad, but they ain't blow-me-away either. I have BCed on some other skis and can say that you definitely want a lighter ski and you don't want to go too long. That's what really makes it a bitch going uphill, doing the kick turns, navigating tricky spots, etc.

 

[Jm_]

I don't even know what kind of skins I have anymore. I've had them for 6-8 years. Skins last a long time taken care of. They have a mesh insert that you can put between them so they won't stick together in your pack. You need to cut the skins, but you have to cut them skinnier than the skis so your edges are still exposed, for hardpack/wind-slab climbing.

 

[Jm_]

And the Tour bindings do get some sneers from the ultra-hardcore, but again, I'd need two completely different setups for that and DH. My Technica's are supposedly able to get a DF fitting up front in the toe plate, but I've never looked hard at that. Bindings don't need to be $800 freaking dollars...especially if I'm trying to save money on lift tickets, by BC.

 

[Toshi]

Jm_ busting in with opposite viewpoints to all those expressed thus far!

 

[Jm_]

The big draw of BC is that you can say "I want to go ski over there!" and then you do. Inevitably that brings up some challenges though, sometimes creeks, sometimes vegetation, sometimes steep climbs up, etc. The Avy class will make you aware of the safe way up, which is generally not the same way you'd go down. But it comes with some challenges. I have a friend that does BC like a freaking mountain goat. He does kick turns uphill on unbelievably steep stuff and it's a struggle with longer skis and swinging in powder. Even barring that, a good BC setup lets you climb up some crazy steep stuff, like you wouldn't believe, especially if it's new snow (tons of grip on the skins).

Getting good at the climbing bit is not as simple or easy as it sounds. There's a hell of a lot more to it than gear choice, although that does have some impact. I thought I sucked at climbing, but I was outclimbing everyone at the Avy classes. Turns out, I don't, just my friend Tim is like world class and makes me think that. With the climbing though there's also the route, which comes from learning about safe travel.

 

[Nick]

Ok, so I’m hearing Tectons, another Mindbender 108 Ti pair, and get fitted by Larry’s bootfitting with something non-wimpy. Reasonable summary?

What do I need to know about skins? Other than they come off once you’re up

If you like the Mindbender, look at the Wayback. Lugging weight uphill is noticeable.

Srsly, though - skinning up a ski area on a weekend is not particularly wise - especially one as busy as Wanker Park.

Just use the Iron Horse lift on those shitshow days. You can get to almost all the good terrain on the Jane from there.

Agreed, especially the "ditch WP and ski the Jane" part!

The Cochise is a popular 50/50 boot, the Zero G is also popular but more touring oriented. I've skied neither, but pretty sure @Nick has Zero Gs.

Matt at Bentgate is the man for boot fitting.
I actually have Cochise AND Zero Gs. Cochise are fine for hiking the ridge/bootpacking, but the Zero G are SO light and still ski very well. See my comment about lugging weight uphill. If you can save pounds between skis, bindings and boots, you should.

 

[Jm_]

Jm_ busting in with opposite viewpoints to all those expressed thus far!

If you want to be able to charge hard, especially if it's not all pristine powder, you need some decent support and I think this was a common theme above. Some of the lightweight AT gear just doesn't hold up over time, especially when you are taking it to a resort and DHing with it. There are better options every year though and the reason we BC is for that pristine powder.

 

[Full Trucker]

I skied on Marker Barons and then Tour F12s for the first nearly 10 years I skied... the frame bindings do work, and work quite well. They're basically an alpine binding sitting on top of a platform. But they're heavier and the stride when walking uphill isn't as ergonomic, efficient, or anatomic. And the frame part of it adds a fair amount of stack height to the binding, and they ski a bit different due to that height and the frame not allowing the ski to flex the same way a two-piece binding does. Some people notice those traits, others don't. I notice the height, but not the flex so far as I can tell. Now that options like the Shift, Tecton, and Duke PT exist I personally wouldn't go back.

Otherwise I feel like @Jm_ said a lot of the same stuff as the rest of us: don't go too lightweight if you still wanna be able to charge. Once thing he mentioned that hadn't been is ski length. And on that, I agree going a bit shorter on your touring setup is generally a wise choice if you're gonna ski in the backcountry. Not as important if you're skinning up the ski area for exercise, since you don't typically need to do kickturns, deal with vegetation, or ski super tight weird trees where a shorter ski would be advantageous.

 

[6thElement]

Not being negative, but someone needs to point out to @Toshi how long it would take to skin up one of the resort runs he's talking about, for the few minutes DH he'd get as a reward

 

[Jm_]

You also don't need 6"-wide powder boards. The floatation on my 102-waist Black Crowes is perfect. The wider the ski, the more weight you are lugging around, especially at the extremes.

The one thing that does blow me away, every freaking time, is how much easier it is to ride skis like this in non-groomed conditions, like carving turns, control at various speeds, etc. Back in the day, especially in CA, on skinny skis, you needed a crazy steep run to give you the vertical speed you needed to float and turn, something about unloading the skis and being able to swing em, etc. Even on a lot of "black diamond" terrain, you just didn't freaking turn in that sludge and going faster didn't help much. You needed steeper chutes for it to work. Now, you can freaking turn like a pro on bunny-slopes and it doesn't get any harder as it gets steeper (relative to the ski). So just the fact that you can get out and ski this stuff so easily on these BC skis, whether it's Black Diamond, K2, BC, Dynafit, whatever, it just blows my mind how well they ski.

 

[Jm_]

Not being negative, but someone needs to point out to @Toshi how long it would take to skin up one of the resort runs he's talking about, for the few minutes DH he'd get as a reward

Yeah, but someone was trying to knock my idea at Snow Bowl (AZ) of skinning up in the trees at 5am to burst out at the "opening" time and take the powder run all the way down to the base. I don't know about you, but that sounds awesome to me. Resorts have basically made this shit unattainable anymore, with their $300 -day lift tickets and lifts that bring so many people to a new section that it gets all skied out in 5 minutes...and I'm not even exaggerating. That's what I mean about resorts ruining it, it's basically become isolated to a few privileged that can make it happen, but for the rest of us peasants, it's becoming a pipe-dream. So IMO, go for it. That's how you know it's a decent run, if it takes a few hours to climb.

 

[Jm_]

That's why you skin up, to get a few really good turns. Rather than eating shit all day.

 

[Toshi]

Not being negative, but someone needs to point out to @Toshi how long it would take to skin up one of the resort runs he's talking about, for the few minutes DH he'd get as a reward

I do spend 60 or 90 minutes on the Peloton spinning... with no sweet DH at all as a reward other than the one hop down to floor level once I'm done

 

[6thElement]

I do spend 60 or 90 minutes on the Peloton spinning... with no sweet DH at all as a reward other than the one hop down to floor level once I'm done

But you also e-bike or e-scooter everything. You pay for those lift season passes for a reason, it sounds like there's alternate lifts you could be skiing via to avoid all the Joeys.

(Not being negative, just imo it sounds like a lot of expense to resort ski when you already pay for that)

 

[StiHacka]

 

[Full Trucker]

Oh, just remembered: I'm pretty sure Bent Gate and Powder 7 rent/demo AT stuff. Including boots, if I'm not mistaken. Another option for "trying it out" before you invest a pile of money into it.