[Toshi]

Updates to the above:

- good-skiing lady indeed was on Mindbender 106Cs as I'd guessed

- the super slow dude hiked uphill to the staging area for the runs but I don't think he took any runs? I took the same 2 runs as everyone did, just took my sweet time getting up the second one, in part because my skin glue got iced over and started to slide (a strap tightly around the rear 1/3rd of it solved this) but mainly because that's the pace at which I wanted to climb. with breaks.

taking an alpine run at the end of the day in a shell with one layer underneath is super, super cold. my clothing worked fine for the rest of the day +/- gloves getting a bit wet in all those transitions during the day.

 

[Jm_]

Take care of your skins and don't dip em in the snow. But if you get some snow on em, you can stick them in your jacket for a downhill, that can sometimes help melt some of the snow off. I always have a down puffy in my pack, either my cheap costco one or an actual good one if it's a colder day. At transition time, that goes on first.

 

[Full Trucker]

I run pretty hot so I've found that I'll often skin up with no shell on. Or, a soft shell for both the up and the down if it's cold enough. Managing your perspiration is pretty critical, IMNSHO. My mentors have often stressed learning how to layer correctly as being one of the most important and yet most often overlooked aspects of self-powered skiing.

One guy on tech bindings straight up ejected from one ski on Hughes on our final in-bounds run back to the base.

Not saying you're blaming the bindings here, but don't blame the bindings. Plenty of people ski tons of shit way harder than you or me in tech bindings and have no problems. There can be a lot of nuance with tech binders (they don't call them Dynafiddles for nothing) but if one is clicked in properly, there are generally little to no issues.

In keeping with that theme, many if not most of the people in this particular AIARE 1 course aren’t great alpine skiers imo.

This is the weirdest damn thing to me... I've noticed it not in avy classes per se but just observing the sorts of people that are getting in to "human powered skiing" whether it's in the backcountry proper or just doing leg laps at the ski area... lots of real damn fit people that can't ski worth a fuck.

 

[Toshi]

Not saying you're blaming the bindings here, but don't blame the bindings. Plenty of people ski tons of shit way harder than you or me in tech bindings and have no problems. There can be a lot of nuance with tech binders (they don't call them Dynafiddles for nothing) but if one is clicked in properly, there are generally little to no issues.

but with minimal elasticity aren't they more prone to eject when you have a transient force over whatever your normal DIN equates to, if that makes sense?

How Elastic is the Plastic? Tech Binding Research - The Backcountry Ski Touring Blog

Evaluating elasticity and safety travel of various ski touring bindings using different tech systems: Marker, Dynafit, Fritschi and Salomon.

wildsnow.com

you're totally right in that it could have been operator error in setting them up or not being fully engaged. but it's also a reasonable pitch groomed run that we were skiing fairly quickly on a hard snow day (Saturday, pre-storm).

 

[Full Trucker]

I mean, I'm pretty sure you'll die if you ski anything except a Pivot. I learned it on the TGR forums, so it must be true.

 

[SkaredShtles]

I mean, I'm pretty sure you'll die if you ski anything except a Pivot. I learned it on the TGR forums, so it must be true.

I've also heard that frame bindings are unskiable. I should tell my Fritschi Daimirs that they don't work.

 

[Toshi]

I've also heard that frame bindings are unskiable. I should tell my Fritschi Daimirs that they don't work.

View attachment 208717

after fiddling around in the snow with getting the toepieces to latch on properly on my Cast, the simplicity of a frame binding is kinda appealing, no joke

but dem stack heights yo

 

[Full Trucker]

...many if not most of the people in this particular AIARE 1 course aren’t great alpine skiers imo.

Revisiting this theme, please kindly refer to this earlier post from woo...

and on the dwid note, this is a friend of mine who works a cunty valley usa
View attachment 188862

 

[SkaredShtles]

after fiddling around in the snow with getting the toepieces to latch on properly on my Cast, the simplicity of a frame binding is kinda appealing, no joke

but dem stack heights yo

Yeah - they are less than ideal, I'll admit - but the simplicity of entry/exit as well as the ease with which the climbing bar is adjusted on-the-fly is nice.

Add to that I really only get out maybe once a year, and it's adequate.

 

[Jm_]

Ski flex is a lot more natural with a tech front binding. That alone lets you turn a lot easier in a lot if situations, where you wont crash and have to eject in the first place. The frame bindings are ok, but IME better suited to big powder days downhill and not as much nuanced snow conditions that tend to exist more commonly. Hard to describe the flex situation but I know frame bindings were contributing to to it, not letting the ski do what it was supposed to in turns.

 

[MonkeyGut]

It gets easier, you'll pick up little nuance-ee techniques as you go. Don't forget to exhale when reaching down for pin/binding alignment and how you are weighting your stances. Those little tech toe ice clearing finger held devices are coo too

 

[Toshi]

It gets easier, you'll pick up little nuance-ee techniques as you go. Don't forget to exhale when reaching down for pin/binding alignment and how you are weighting your stances. Those little tech toe ice clearing finger held devices are coo too

yeah, I bought a little chisel type tool for clearing out crevices on tech bindings. and frankly it wasn't that useful, as what I needed was a set of small pliers to bend those pesky Dynafit springs a bit to give clearance for the Cast mounting points. (my instructor had such a tool. and I've ordered one now, tiny Knipex water heater pliers.)

 

[MonkeyGut]

yeah, I bought a little chisel type tool for clearing out crevices on tech bindings. and frankly it wasn't that useful, as what I needed was a set of small pliers to bend those pesky Dynafit springs a bit to give clearance for the Cast mounting points. (my instructor had such a tool. and I've ordered one now, tiny Knipex water heater pliers.)

I've never had to bend the pin springs for any kind of clearance, Clarence.... Is it a boot thing or the pins? Can't see how springs would be in the way but, I miss-see shit all the time.

 

[Toshi]

I've never had to bend the pin springs for any kind of clearance, Clarence.... Is it a boot thing or the pins? Can't see how springs would be in the way but, I miss-see shit all the time.

the springs get in the way of the little posts to mount the toe piece

 

[Full Trucker]

but with minimal elasticity aren't they more prone to eject when you have a transient force over whatever your normal DIN equates to, if that makes sense?

How Elastic is the Plastic? Tech Binding Research - The Backcountry Ski Touring Blog

Evaluating elasticity and safety travel of various ski touring bindings using different tech systems: Marker, Dynafit, Fritschi and Salomon.

wildsnow.com

you're totally right in that it could have been operator error in setting them up or not being fully engaged. but it's also a reasonable pitch groomed run that we were skiing fairly quickly on a hard snow day (Saturday, pre-storm).

I suppose I should maybe respond and not just throw out a snarky response. Which, by the way, was not aimed at you—just riffing on the common fear mongering I see on forums like TGR, Freeskier, Newschoolers, etc.

My understanding is that elasticity is the binding's ability to allow the boot to move a certain distance under a certain amount of force and then return to "center" once that force has dissipated, and that elasticity != retention. If enough force is applied, then the boot will be released from the binding. The force at which the boot comes out is controlled by the release value, in alpine bindings that's the DIN or whatever. But the force at which the boot starts moving is not equal to the force that the boot releases, it's less. In a tech binding (or at least any tech binding I would consider skiing) all of this is the same: retention force is higher than the force that starts to overcome the elasticity of the binding. Whether the binding has 4mm or 20mm of elasticity, if the force at which the boot will release is 6 N-m then it shouldn't release until that amount of force is applied. Now, the amount of force it would take to start the boot moving might be different for each binding e.g. the one with 4mm of elasticity doesn't let the boot start moving until a higher force is applied. But the release force shouldn't be different.

To be fair and honest, I don't actually know if tech bindings are more prone to unwanted releases (than DIN certified bindings) due to having less elasticity or not. But my experience and understanding is that bindings with more elasticity will be more comfortable to ski on hard shit fuck snow, but are not inherently safer due to having greater elasticity. If the amount of force it takes to pop a boot out is repeatable and consistent for a particular binding, I don't see how more or less elasticity makes it any more or less "safe" or prone to pre-release.

That you witnessed someone come out of a tech binding on a "reasonable pitch groomed run that we were skiing fairly quickly on a hard snow day" honestly sounds more like a setup issue or user error than a "tech bindings bad" thing to me, but not knowing details I can't say I actually have an opinion. It's a single example of thousands of people skiing tech bindings in and out of bounds, much like my experience of skiing my tech bindings inbounds on hard snow in steep-ish terrain while being a Large Human™ and having zero issues or unwanted releases.

I've never had to bend the pin springs for any kind of clearance, Clarence.... Is it a boot thing or the pins? Can't see how springs would be in the way but, I miss-see shit all the time.

@Toshi uses a Cast Touring system, where there's a plate with posts mounted to the ski that allows the skier to swap between a tech toe for touring and a Pivot alpine toe for skiing. It's a super slick system, I've also considered it for my inbounds skis that I rarely tour on, but want the option if I'm traveling or leaving the ski area for some side piece backcountry action.

 

[Toshi]

I'm with you, Evan: the internet is filled with all sorts of shit that people believe firmly yet it's hard to sort out what's actually valid in real life. and when it comes to AT bindings the noise level is super high.

what I should do for shits and giggles is rent a lightweight true AT setup (that'd work with my GripWalk-soled K2 Mindbender 120 boots) from REI, Evo, or Bentgate and then flog it around on groomers for a day to see how that feels/works/doesn't work for me.




edit: REI downtown doesn't do ski rentals apparently. and Evo's policy would charge me richly: would be a $300 rental to pick up Friday, drop off Sunday. Bentgate, although I am still peeved at them for selling me a very inappropriate replacement liner for my alpine boots, would be $75 for pick up at > 3 pm Friday, return before noon Sunday, which works perfectly with my weekend timing.

edit 2: was all ready to check out for next Saturday but then looked at my calendar, and kid-shuttling doesn't let this timeline work out. will do this at some point. Bentgate has some DPS Pagoda Tour 100s in 179 that'd work well for this experiment, methinks.

 

[Toshi]

data here to nerd out about theory:

Ripping Ligaments and Snapping Bones

skimo.co

in a point for the "Look Pivots for all" camp, note that the problem with the alpine bindings they tested was lack of lateral release at the heel... also interesting that the skimo race bindings don't have adjustable release at all (!) and the ostensibly adjustable touring bindings adjusted ok but didn't release at the forces that they should have per the nominal DIN.

 

[Nick]

What size are your boots again?

 

[Toshi]

What size are your boots again?

304 mm BSL on my AT boots

 

[Full Trucker]

These skis truck. Super fun and slashy. Easy to ski. Full rocker. Light as fuck.

Perfect for wiggling through the trees in boot top snow on a bluebird day.

Shimmy shimmy ya shimmy yam shimmy yay.

 

[SkaredShtles]

Shimmy shimmy ya shimmy yam shimmy yay.

I approve this ODB reference.

 

[Toshi]

These skis truck. Super fun and slashy. Easy to ski. Full rocker. Light as fuck.

View attachment 208808

Perfect for wiggling through the trees in boot top snow on a bluebird day.

Shimmy shimmy ya shimmy yam shimmy yay.

What are they? And what bindings did you go with?

 

[Nick]

These skis truck. Super fun and slashy. Easy to ski. Full rocker. Light as fuck.

View attachment 208808

Perfect for wiggling through the trees in boot top snow on a bluebird day.

Shimmy shimmy ya shimmy yam shimmy yay.

Are those the 105s? Sexy time.

 

[SkaredShtles]

What are they? And what bindings did you go with?

Heritage Lab, unless my eyes cheat me.

 

[Toshi]

Ah, does match the 105 topsheet. Purty

 

[Full Trucker]

Oh yes yes Heritage Labs BC105 with ATK R12 binders. We’ll see how I get along with a full rocker ski for all my backcountry days, but so far I’m a fan.

One of my adjustable poles did break today, the collar that locks the two halves together popped off the half that it was press fit on to. So I might be in the market for a pair of those extra long dildo poles with the extra long foam grips that look like a sexy toy.

 

[Toshi]

ATK R12 binders

/me goes and googles

did you opt for the freeride spacer? Seems an elegant thing, that.

 

[Nick]

So I might be in the market for a pair of those extra long dildo poles with the extra long foam grips that look like a sexy toy.

if serious i have a pair you can have. not for me. bamboo, pink/green motif, long grips, extra dildoey.

 

[Full Trucker]

/me goes and googles

did you opt for the freeride spacer? Seems an elegant thing, that.

I did. No idea how they ski without them, but the bindings ski great so far. A fiend who has skied them with and without has said where you really notice the stomp pad is on harder snow, particularly in steeper and/or more technical terrain. Gives you a bit better leverage over the edges, more control, a bit less of a vague feeling. All this makes sense to me, and seemed wise regardless but particularly for a full rockered ski on hardpack.

if serious i have a pair you can have. not for me. bamboo, pink/green motif, long grips, extra dildoey.

Yes, please. I’ll give them a go.

(They might not be for me either but why not try? If for no other reason than to annoy Woo and half of TGR.)

 

[Toshi]

I’m idly thinking about getting a set of lighter, narrower skis with tech bindings to see what this brouhaha is all about.

2022 Scott Superguide 88 178cm Used Demo Skis w Bindings - Powder7

2022 Scott Superguide 88 178cm Skis are now on sale with fast shipping from our Golden, CO ski shop. The updated Superguide 88 has it all: a ski that's ...

www.powder7.com

These would need a remount for my 304 BSL but I’m sure powder7 would do it for that price. The adjectives I’m reading about the ski sound good to my ear:

https://cripplecreekbc.com/products/scott-superguide-88-alpine-touring-ski

a bunch of reviews here, including one that's kinda of lukewarm on this one:

TOURING SKIS TEST – UP TO 90MM 2022

alpinemag.com

Ski test – Scott Superguide 88

alpinemag.com

edit: putting prices in here to compare for later sales/non-sales. $530 as of 3/13, $560 as of 3/18

edit 2: sounds like G3 Ions are definitely _not_ the bindings for me

 

[Toshi]

Another thought. I like high viz, what can I say. The minimalist bindings with a leash are also intriguing. Would need a remount similarly.

2023 Black Crows Orb Freebird 173cm Used Demo Skis w Bindings - Powder7

2023 Black Crows Orb Freebird 173cm Skis are now on sale with fast shipping from our Golden, CO ski shop. A classic in the Black Crows Freebird line and...

www.powder7.com

Might be a bit soft for me from what I read vs what I like

a review. auto-translated from French?

Ski test – Black Crows Orb Freebird

alpinemag.com

edit: putting prices in here to compare for later sales/non-sales. $760 as of 3/13, $790 as of 3/18

 

[Toshi]

Encouragement

Then again Vin kind of does have a problem with buying too many skis

 

[Toshi]

I'd have to start at like 4 AM to reach the top before lifts turn

no, seriously

 

[Full Trucker]

Is his name Vin Vinnie Vincent? I met a guy like that at Snowbird. Introduced himself as “Lou Louie Louis whatevah ya wanna call me.” Nice bloke.

 

[Toshi]

Is his name Vin Vinnie Vincent? I met a guy like that at Snowbird. Introduced himself as “Lou Louie Louis whatevah ya wanna call me.” Nice bloke.

Nah, just one Vin. Likes to wear brown pants. Very energetic bouncy skier, tires me out watching him

 

[Nick]

I wouldn't want to tour on a ski that I wouldn't want to ski.
Just ditch the super heavy CAST/Pivot setup. you'll save significant weight per foot and that will make a huge difference.

 

[Toshi]

I wouldn't want to tour on a ski that I wouldn't want to ski.
Just ditch the super heavy CAST/Pivot setup. you'll save significant weight per foot and that will make a huge difference.

260 grams lighter for a Shift than Cast per this, and maybe even less of a differential (Skimo has Shift 13 at 1812 g).

Shift or CAST Binding Systems?

Hey all, I'm currently looking for a setup that'll be used next season. I'm mainly a resort skier but I'm looking to get into the backcountry. I love the fr

www.newschoolers.com

but that's vs a Shift 13. a Shift 10 is lighter by <goes to look it up> 63 grams

<thinks>

 

[6thElement]

Have you considered shoe goo and duct tape?

 

[Nick]

260 grams lighter for a Shift than Cast per this, and maybe even less of a differential (Skimo has Shift 13 at 1812 g).

Shift or CAST Binding Systems?

Hey all, I'm currently looking for a setup that'll be used next season. I'm mainly a resort skier but I'm looking to get into the backcountry. I love the fr

www.newschoolers.com

but that's vs a Shift 13. a Shift 10 is lighter by <goes to look it up> 63 grams

<thinks>

260g lighter, AND you aren't carrying around an extra set of alpine toes in your pack.
I have Shifts on a pair of 116mm skis, they ski just like an alpine binding, they tour adequately well. I'd call it an 80/20 binding.
Salomon is releasing an updated Shift this season. Wait for that one?

I also use Tecton bindings on a pair of 100mm skis, which see the most touring. Those bindings ski great and tour great, but they're still heavy compared to Plums or Ions.

 

[Toshi]

I think the Cast quoted weight includes the toes. But yes dealing with them is a pain in deep snow.

https://www.powder.com/gear-locker/new-cast-freetour-binding-drops-weight-not-performance