[General Lee]

nah i know what your saying, im not trying to say astars is better blah blah blah but its more comfortable with a MOTO helmet.

not trying to win a medal here on the internet just voicing opinions!!

not a matter of whose is better. I'm just trying to avoid evaluating a product based on a criteria for which it was explicitly not designed. In this case rearward neck rotation on the a-star brace. You like it for good reasons, but those aren't necessarily the standards on which it was designed. Comparisons to the Leatt are inevitable but the two products are built around entirely different premises about how to prevent neck injuries.

i get what you're sayig, you like the way the brace fits and intercats with your helmet and you are confident it provides enough protection against rearward rotation of your head in a crash. great. But i'd stay away from evauating it on that criteria as that is not an explicit part of the design. According to what i've read on the astar brace both you in your moto helmet and GR in his D2 are afforded the same degree of intended coverage against neck injury, at least in terms of how Astar interpret the available data on the subject. you can't fault a product for something it is explicitly designed not to do.

Hugs.
Lee

 

[Tiago79]

Video links

Part 1

Part 2

 

[freeridefool]

I broke my leatt at the track on my crf250. I cased a double in the mud and scorpioned then got landed on by my awesome roommate. Moto usa had a couple of a* braces to test so I got to use the a* brace also. It also got broken on the same jump that the leatt got broken on. This is moto so read into it what you want.

I didnt like my leatt at first because of the lack of head movement. I had to turn my whole body in the air to see around me. Thats why I only wore it for moto. Over time I got used to it liked the extra feeling of protection from wearing it. Plus it had cool moto usa stickers on it. But in my crash, I can say I would have broken my neck on impact if I didnt have it on. You can actually see where my roomies tire hit my brace also.

With the a* brace I never felt like it was strapped down right. I didnt have the straps the yuro was talking about. But with my shoei vfx or even my larger Fox v3 I felt like my helmet moved around way too much compared to what I was used to with my leatt. I felt that it felt like more of a novelty item when I was wearing it. But when I crashed I again scorpioned. This time into the front side of the landing... I missed a shift. This crash hurt alot more and resulted in the brace being broken at the latch on the front and on the left side. Where it was destroyed.

With all that said... I would use the a* brace for dh over the leatt. I trust both with my life and have had to put both through their paces. Both companies ended up sending new braces free of charge. I think because I test for moto usa.

 

[yuroshek]

FRF- pretty scary stuff man.

quick question- with your experience with both braces would you wear the BNS with a D2 or similar bike helmet?

 

[jcaramia]

FRF- pretty scary stuff man.

quick question- with your experience with both braces would you wear the BNS with a D2 or similar bike helmet?

I was gonna PM him the same exact question.

 

[General Lee]

FRF- pretty scary stuff man.

quick question- with your experience with both braces would you wear the BNS with a D2 or similar bike helmet?

I wonder what a*'s response is to people using the brace for DH. Obviously it was designed for motocross, as was the leatt, but i'm curious to know if they have done any testing on non-moto applications. I know leatt has extensively, but i've yet to find anything published by a* that even mentions cycling. probably just a matter of time.

 

[yuroshek]

I wonder what a*'s response is to people using the brace for DH. Obviously it was designed for motocross, as was the leatt, but i'm curious to know if they have done any testing on non-moto applications. I know leatt has extensively, but i've yet to find anything published by a* that even mentions cycling. probably just a matter of time.

Lee, I talked to CS before i even bought the brace and since i told them i was using it for DH and not moto, they did not want to talk to me or give me answers. Since i was not using it for the purpose it was intended for. Now i wonder what they would say if i broke it while riding DH... wonder if they would still help me with a replacement... maybe ill just say i was riding moto instead.

dennis

 

[freeridefool]

I dont wear a mtb helmet for dh. Ill usually wear my v3 or I have a cheaper Fox tracer. With my shoei I felt like my head moved sufficiently enough for me to wear it for dh. Ive never worn a D2. But I have put my old mace full face on with the a* brace on and I couldnt touch the brace with the helmet. So I dont know. Im not a super protect myself kinda guy. So I would wear it with just a dh helmet. But like I said, I dont know if that is safe or not.

 

[Raingauge]

What helmet does GM wear with his A* brace? Isn't it a mtb helmet?

 

[kickstand]

having zero experience with the afforementioned products I will just say that by hyper-extending my spine (ie feet touching back of head) I was able to fracture L4 and L5. (bottom two vert's). If alpinestar's feels that hyperextension of the neck can not cause catostrophic injury or paralysis I question that slightly.

I realize anything can happen, but stabilization of the spine during a crash in any form seems like a good idea to me. I would think that purchasing the brace that YOU felt most comfortable in is probably the route I would suggest to anyone.

That said I have intentions of racing downhill in a beginner category next year and had planned on wearing my moto helmet. But beyond that I don't wear any sort of extra gear, maybe I should look into the possibilities of wearing more gear.

 

[bizutch]

I lawn darted as an early teen onto my skull and can understand the Alpinestars brace. My C3 vertebrae is shaped like the Alps...jagged. But I'm definitely wanting to get the Leatt before next season. I think a compression won't pose near the threat of over rotation with that weak link.....but that's an e-guess.

 

[Dogboy]

What helmet does GM wear with his A* brace? Isn't it a mtb helmet?

It's an OGK and pretty much identical to a Troy Lee D2.

 

[General Lee]

having zero experience with the afforementioned products I will just say that by hyper-extending my spine (ie feet touching back of head) I was able to fracture L4 and L5. (bottom two vert's). If alpinestar's feels that hyperextension of the neck can not cause catostrophic injury or paralysis I question that slightly.

I realize anything can happen, but stabilization of the spine during a crash in any form seems like a good idea to me. I would think that purchasing the brace that YOU felt most comfortable in is probably the route I would suggest to anyone. . .

Both Leatt and Alpinestars openly admit that their respective braces are designed to protect only your neck from injury. In other words just the cervical vertebrae. I'm no expert on spinal injuries, but I would imagine that breaking lower lumbar vertebrae would be from hyperextension at the waist/pelvis (feet hitting back of head) not from hyperextension of the neck.

either way, both braces are designed only to protect C1-C7

 

[General Lee]

What helmet does GM wear with his A* brace? Isn't it a mtb helmet?

I've only ever seen a quick clip of him testing it for a run or two at Maribor (I think?). Other than that I haven't seen any pictures/video of him actually wearing it or riding in it. But yes, he was wearing his usual OGK dh helmet.

 

[Tiago79]

There was a photo of him in Dirt magizine at the 08 Maribor,one shot from pratice this year(I think Maribor again)in one of the vids(I dont remember which groups it was) but that is it. Neethling,Lehikoinen & Polc all are sponsored by Alpinestars but I have never seen them use the the Alpinestars BNS only the Leatt. I know Neethling helps test for Leatt but what about the evil boys(ALL 3 wear THE helmets..I think?)?

 

[Tiago79]

I would really like to hear what Alpinestars has to say about the matter because they have sponsored DH riders but there does not seem to be any sort of push for this brace for us by them. I know the non carbon is just now coming out the the carbon BNS has been out since August 08.

 

[kOlsen]

Sorry for the hijack, but which Leatt brace is the way to go?

I have a D2 if that matters..

 

[yuroshek]

Sorry for the hijack, but which Leatt brace is the way to go?

I have a D2 if that matters..

get the Leatt Club.

 

[kOlsen]

get the Leatt Club.

I did a little search and came up with the same conclusion, but thanks anyway.

 

[kickstand]

Both Leatt and Alpinestars openly admit that their respective braces are designed to protect only your neck from injury. In other words just the cervical vertebrae. I'm no expert on spinal injuries, but I would imagine that breaking lower lumbar vertebrae would be from hepterextension at the waist/pelvis (feet hitting back of head) not from hyperextension of the neck.

either way, both braces are designed only to protect C1-C7

1. I understand they are designed to only protect the neck, based on this thread alone it is clear you have taken more time to understand their intentions than i.

2. I was "assume"ing with similar shapes and functions that all vertebrae would primarily be subject to injury the same way. Thought sharing my experience may be relevant, I've been wrong before.

3. Hyper/hepter....hmmmm I'm confused, I was always under the impression I hyper extended my back when it fractured, but admittedly I am not a doc or anatamy expert. I even thought thats what the doc told me.

 

[General Lee]

1. I understand they are designed to only protect the neck, based on this thread alone it is clear you have taken more time to understand their intentions than i.

2. I was "assume"ing with similar shapes and functions that all vertebrae would primarily be subject to injury the same way. Thought sharing my experience may be relevant, I've been wrong before.

3. Hyper/hepter....hmmmm I'm confused, I was always under the impression I hyper extended my back when it fractured, but admittedly I am not a doc or anatamy expert. I even thought thats what the doc told me.

i meant hyper both times, hepter isn't even a word. should have proof read.

 

[kickstand]

Gotcha. Well than in that respect I still have a valid concern of alpinestars feeling the neck can not break from hyper extension, or maybe the lumbar is different than the neck?

Either way I would say any protection that fits you comfortably is better than no protection. I will step aside and read the comments of those with more experience and knowledge on the subject of neck injuries (which this product is designed to help prevent) Where as my only experience with fractured vertebrae is int he lumbar region.

 

[bizutch]

Gotcha. Well than in that respect I still have a valid concern of alpinestars feeling the neck can not break from hyper extension, or maybe the lumbar is different than the neck?

Either way I would say any protection that fits you comfortably is better than no protection. I will step aside and read the comments of those with more experience and knowledge on the subject of neck injuries (which this product is designed to help prevent) Where as my only experience with fractured vertebrae is int he lumbar region.

I don't think Alpinestars is saying the neck can't break from hyperextension. They're stating that the majority of paralysis from neck injuries is due to compression. It's not directly saying it, but that indicates that they chose to protect against the greatest danger of the 2 types of spinal injuries based on odds.

 

[djjohnr]

Alpinestars identified compression as the only form of impact that will likely result in catastrophic neck injury, meaning paralysis or death. In all other forms of impact, they prefer to let your body protect itself through its own natural movement.

“It only comes into play when compression is going to take place, which is the head compressing down toward the torso, or the torso compressing toward the head,” Tim Collins of Alpinestars said. “The way we designed this with the low-swoop neck, low-swoop back, and real thin sidebars is because we want to encourage movement to take place. We want the head to move out of the way of the torso naturally, if possible. Other systems that are out there might have really wide side bars; they may come up higher in the back, or come up higher in the front so that the helmet’s constantly in contact with it regardless of which way the head’s moving. This is really designed contrary to that in that the only time we want it to come into play is compression. Other than that, we want the head to naturally move out of the way because the only time the only time you’re really going to suffer a catastrophic injury – paralysis, death – is at compression.

I don't buy that analysis one bit. Read up on flexion teardrop fractures. You can start here - http://www.med.wayne.edu/diagradiology/tf/MS/MS02.html

This type of injury is exactly what I want to protect against on a bike - high speed head first shallow entry into rocks/stumps/trees.

EDIT - I'm guessing they felt these types of crashes aren't typical on MX bikes, however they are on DH bikes.

 

[General Lee]

I don't buy that analysis one bit. Read up on flexion teardrop fractures. You can start here - http://www.med.wayne.edu/diagradiology/tf/MS/MS02.html

This type of injury is exactly what I want to protect against on a bike - high speed head first shallow entry into rocks/stumps/trees.

EDIT - I'm guessing they felt these types of crashes aren't typical on MX bikes, however they are on DH bikes.

I'm not taking sides, just posted the info so anyone interested would know what it was/wasn't designed to do.

I won't be replacing my Leatt that's for sure.

 

[djjohnr]

I'm not taking sides, just posted the info so anyone interested would know what it was/wasn't designed to do.

I didn't think you were. Thanks for posting that in the first place.

 

[Tiago79]

Just got back from being out of town with work and whlile I was out I stopped by my friends motocross store/mail order website and they just got 2 of the new non carbon Alpinestars BNS. It looks really good for $289 and the about only difference in it and the carbon is well.....the carbon. I think the inner foam is different but not better or worse and the wings for the X-strap are a little different but once again not less quality.

They only got 2 of the 20 something they ordered and the only reason they got them was because it was done as a owner purchas on the first day that ordering was avaliable. The one for their son was a XS and the other was a small. From what they were told by their rep the XS and S are going to be avaliable first and that the M and L will not be in until Febuary. Like I said it is just what the alpinestars rep told them but you never know Motosport.com might have them next week. I thought some people on here might be interested to know.

 

[freeridefool]

Just got back from being out of town with work and whlile I was out I stopped by my friends motocross store/mail order website and they just got 2 of the new non carbon Alpinestars BNS. It looks really good for $289 and the about only difference in it and the carbon is well.....the carbon. I think the inner foam is different but not better or worse and the wings for the X-strap are a little different but once again not less quality.

They only got 2 of the 20 something they ordered and the only reason they got them was because it was done as a owner purchas on the first day that ordering was avaliable. The one for their son was a XS and the other was a small. From what they were told by their rep the XS and S are going to be avaliable first and that the M and L will not be in until Febuary. Like I said it is just what the alpinestars rep told them but you never know Motosport.com might have them next week. I thought some people on here might be interested to know.

Motosport sucks. Go to motorcycle-superstore.com better prices and a lot better company.

 

[Tiago79]

Yeah I was just saying Febuary is just what the rep "said" and that they could be on mail order website tomorrow you never know. I was just using motosport as an example I will get one thru my friends shop.

 

[yuroshek]

i ordered the alpinestars A brace strap from motosports on late monday night? and i got it today. pretty surprised, the strap is nice but kinda cheap in a way but does its job. hopefully ill be able to test the strap this weekend.

 

[bizutch]

Wait...Dennis is wearing a strap-on..what?

 

[yuroshek]

Wait...Dennis is wearing a strap-on..what?

yea well i use to wear one but it broke, someone slammed it in a door. so i got a new one.

 

[tlproject7]

ok, soo i only read a bit of this thread, but i just thought throw trick out there that i discovered because of all the other tips ive gotten from ridemonkey. i where a tld se2 with a leatt. the way ive found to really make it work with out messing with visbilty is this. first do all the other tricks to lower the back as much as possible. then make the chest moount go as far down as possible so it sits a little higher on your chest. ok and so heres my tip and dont know if it will actually work for other body types. buuut its all about making the brace sit high up you chest so that back shelf is lower down. soo either go to the gym forever. or where the right armor. i have some older 661. but it keeps the brace really high.. and then i can see.. hopefully some kid will read this in 5 years in and bingo he'll ride with his brace more often

 

[yuroshek]

ok, soo i only read a bit of this thread, but i just thought throw trick out there that i discovered because of all the other tips ive gotten from ridemonkey. i where a tld se2 with a leatt. the way ive found to really make it work with out messing with visbilty is this. first do all the other tricks to lower the back as much as possible. then make the chest moount go as far down as possible so it sits a little higher on your chest. ok and so heres my tip and dont know if it will actually work for other body types. buuut its all about making the brace sit high up you chest so that back shelf is lower down. soo either go to the gym forever. or where the right armor. i have some older 661. but it keeps the brace really high.. and then i can see.. hopefully some kid will read this in 5 years in and bingo he'll ride with his brace more often

genius!

 

[tlproject7]

hahaa nice. im glad some one read that. i forgot to add that you need the back spinal thing in the farthest out setting, even tho this will feel way to big for skinny kids untill your extra large chest is in place.

 

[yuroshek]

hahaa nice. im glad some one read that. i forgot to add that you need the back spinal thing in the farthest out setting, even tho this will feel way to big for skinny kids untill your extra large chest is in place.

gotcha! im gonna do some push ups!

 

[yetihenry]

What is the general consensus on the suitability of mtb helmets, such as the D2 with neck braces then? I have spoken to a few people who think that due to how small helmets such as the D2 and THE ONE are at the back they can actually do more harm than good? Would they work better with a BNS or Leatt design?

My mum has seen them at uplift days and is keen to help me out and buy one (Im 20, but a student) and think the Leatt Club is the way to go, but I wont be able to shell out for a D3 or light MX helmet until at least next season.

Is it worth getting a club now, or getting a D3 and moving up the the ATSM 1952 class, feels wrong as my current D2 is only 4months old, but would it be a wiser investment?

Am I right in thinking they are more a peice of mind thing than anything else? And a Leatt style is better than a BNS for mtb as we are less likely to have a heavy bike force us into the ground, so hyperextension etc is a bigger problem than pure compression force?

Sorry if this is too far from the main point, but the whole topic seemed to be migrating this way.

 

[davep]

My only input as to new helmet vs leatt....

I would much rather have a bad concussion or a messed up face than be a paraplegic (after several spinal surgeries myself...). Not that anything is black and white like that (and I am not saying that the D2 is the best you can get) but you own a 'good' helmet already...if there was an abnormal significant incidence of injury with any current helmet, I think you would hear about it.

 

[sofa king slow]

Your D2 will work fine with a Leatt. It is smaller than a moto helmet but will still contact the brace before your kneck breaks. Same with a THE. The D3, as I understand, is actually designed with more Leatt clearance than the D2. The brace will be effective with both but you should have a larger range of motion with the D3.

Edit: This is for the Leatt. I have no experience with the Alpinestar brace and it sounds like there are contrasting opinions on its compatibility with mtb helmets in this thread.

 

[yetihenry]

It wasn't so much a new helmet vs leatt, more a will my helmet work if not I may aswell get a D3 first rather than having a helmet that could potentially cause more harm than good.

Ill go for a leatt club in that case, cheers.