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Alrighty, so, my boxxers do NOTHING.

Discussion in 'Downhill & Freeride' started by Muttely, Jun 22, 2009.

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  1. Muttely

    Muttely Monkey

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    So i had to ask you all for help the other day, which led to the discovery that the boxxers id bought were actually assembled wrong and had the wrong damper in each leg. so, that sorted, i put them back together etc, put the correct oil amounts and weights in, please do bear in mind that the moco and rebound assemblies are both fully intact, and operational, but here the problem.

    The dont do anything. at all, nothing, nada, so we tried a heavier oil weight damper side.

    Nothing.

    No rebound damping. no compression damping.

    So far, its wrecked 1 race for me, which is just seriously annoying, does anybody have an exploded diagram of the rebound and compression systems within an 07 team? or a labelled picture of it all? so i can be 100% sure how epically failing my forks are?
    or a magical method of telling me whats wrong before i even finish posting this? Cheers!
     

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  2. Muttely

    Muttely Monkey

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    oh, and theres a brutal top out to put the cherry on top.


    I shall never, ever buy secondhand forks again.
     
  3. Inclag

    Inclag Turbo Monkey

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    If you can't figure out what is going on after looking through the service manual, I would highly suggest bringing the fork into a shop.
     
  4. Muttely

    Muttely Monkey

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    The service manual contains no exloded diagrams or detailed images of the rebound and compression assemblies dismantled, ivealready checked, checked again, downloaded it, checked it again, read it about 60 more times, and then posted here.
     
  5. Inclag

    Inclag Turbo Monkey

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    I'm sorry but I've never really thought of the Boxxer as a terribly difficult fork to service, so that's why I figured if you are still having issues that it might be best to have someone else fix it.

    With that said, a few minutes on the Google found these.



     
  6. Muttely

    Muttely Monkey

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    Right, i dont seem to be missing anything, And i cant afford a service, anyone heard any or know any issues that can cause full loss of damping?
     
  7. Gunner

    Gunner Monkey

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    If your boxers aren't working, you might have them on backwards. Just remember, the hole goes in the front.


    (sorry, had to)
     
  8. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Well in the last thread you brought these issues up in, you said the oil was leaking into the lowers or something. That'd explain having no damping. Did you fix it or make any progress from that point onwards? Have you inspected the rebound piston and compression piston for missing parts (or parts that are doing strange things) in relation to the pictures in the service manual?

    You don't seem to realise that this is the internet, telling us your fork is failing epically isn't going to help us diagnose your problem. The internet helps those who help themselves. :)
     
  9. - seb

    - seb Turbo Monkey

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    Aye, I heard them after you landed the drop into the berm at the top of the race yesterday! At least I think it was you :)

    Can't help, sorry. Fork internals scare me. Send 'em to Tim.
     
  10. Muttely

    Muttely Monkey

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    Yeah, previously, and shockingly i suddenly realised upon a "state the obvious" inspection, the rebound dampers had been fitted in the wrong legs by the previous owner or god knows, meaning the unsealed spring side damper was in the damper side.

    Having changed this, i gave them all the right oil etc everywhere.

    out of the stachion, the moco stick is fully operational,everything moving and working as it should, but inside the fork it is doing absolutely nothing, as with the rebound piston. no missing parts from what i can see, but there must be, the oil must be bypassing both circuits somewhere, but i cant work it out, hence why i need a full picture or blown up diagram of the circuits themselves.


    And yes seb, that was me, god that track was impossible to ride on my bike as it is, the forks pissed oil all over my front brake resulting in 3 crashes first run, and me just cruising down on the second and still crashing on that chalk corner. second to last in cat for zee win.
     
  11. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    The compression damper is displacement based, so as long as there is 150ml of oil trapped in the stanchion, and the damper rod is sliding into it, the compression damper will have oil forced through it. Possible causes for it not working are torn o-rings, or more likely an LSC (silvery) plate that isn't shutting properly. Remove the blue piston (via 2mm key) from the moco assy and inspect the conical coil spring on the inside of it that operates the LSC plate to make sure it is neat and not tangled in itself. On reinstallation, note orientation of blue fork against mating key-rod, only one way is correct, when done right, all port area will be visibly closed by the silver plate with the compression adjuster locked out.

    The rebound damper is an incredibly simple ported job. It does not affect the compression damper/damping. Possible causes for malfunction are a damaged return-valve spring, or a missing return-valve shim. Inspect the shim, make sure it's there, and test it (with a small sharp pin) to make sure it slides down neatly all the way around, compressing the spring, and closes all ports on its side of the piston when released.

    Finally, ensure glide-ring (white) is in place on the rebound piston, and all o-rings on the motion control unit are intact and not damaged. Without looking at the fork it's hard to give further suggestions; but assuming the damper is holding its 150ml of oil (does it?), it's quite odd that neither adjustment is working.

    Sounds like an absolute moron owned the fork prior to you, but I think the key to buying second hand is quizzing the buyer in as much depth as possible (and inspecting in just as much depth if possible, preferably). Unfortunately it seems you missed a step or two there.

    Oh and it just occured to me after reading your post again; the fork is designed to top out on the spring side (and the spring side piston supports all forces from the spring). So if you or the previous owner rode the fork with the damper rod and piston (non-load-bearing in any direction) in the spring leg, it's entirely likely that some or many components of the rebound piston/shaft are damaged significantly.
     
  12. djamgils

    djamgils Monkey

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    what did you change? because this doesnt make sense.
    You can switch everything from left to right and it wont change anything.
    From what I can imagine the red circled parts are switched between left and right and you still get all the oil in the lower part of the stanchion.
     
  13. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Danny - I suspect parts 10 and 13 may have been swapped around. Or it could be what you showed as well.

    I'm assuming Muttely is intelligent enough to have established that his damper is actually holding oil now though, since that was the problem before. Am I correct, or is it still possible that the oil is ending up in the lowers? You can build the damper (including its stanchion) outside of the lowers to ensure it is functioning correctly before installation - cycle it by hand.
     
  14. Muttely

    Muttely Monkey

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    Nope, Moco side stanchion is fully sealed now, no oil loss, im going to take the entire moco side apart and re-test everything outside of the stanchion, check its all there, make sure its all where it should be and doing what it should. cheers for the advice people!
     
  15. iRider

    iRider Turbo Monkey

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    Could it be that the threads for the bolt that secures the damper shaft to the lowers is stripped?
     
  16. Muttely

    Muttely Monkey

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    WIN.
    stripped the moco side down, reigniting my hate for circlips, tested the shim, seemed it was far far too flimsy, so i added 2 smaller shims beneath it to preload the spring/hold the first, then refilled, put it all back together etc, testing it out with the damper it seems to have a far better range of rebound adjustment, Great success!
     
  17. jonKranked

    jonKranked Press Button, Receive Stupid

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    once again, MOAR SHIMS ftw!
     
  18. Jeremy R

    Jeremy R <b>x</b>

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    Step 1 - collect shims
    Step 2 -
    Step 3 - profit!
     
  19. Muttely

    Muttely Monkey

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    I believe this could be a top example of how Moar shimz leads to success.

    I think theyve somehow increased my compression, in a good way.
     
  20. John P.

    John P. Turbo Monkey

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    LMAO!! Holy sh!t, I'm dying over here. What the hell is that from??
     
  21. Jeremy R

    Jeremy R <b>x</b>

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    South Park:

    The Underpants Gnomes are businessmen of sorts, and they know a lot about corporations, and explain them to the boys in their underground lair. Their business plan is as follows:

    Phase 1: Collect Underpants
    Phase 2: ?
    Phase 3: Profit!

    Kenny is flattened by a falling trolley cart used by the Gnomes during the visit
    Kenny = Bender
     
  22. Inclag

    Inclag Turbo Monkey

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  23. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    What's phase 2?

     
  24. Udi

    Udi RM Chief Ornithologist: “I Brake for Birds”

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    Hahaha, foiled. Best episode ever.
    I used the line here before but no one picked up on it.
     
  25. Muttely

    Muttely Monkey

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    Right, so, my rebound has full on slowed down and all, but the fork now seems to have HUGE amounts of compression damping, even though ive already removed quite a few shims from the Speedstack.

    Anyone got any ideas as to why?
     
  26. djamgils

    djamgils Monkey

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    -first you didnt have any damping, not on compression or rebound.
    -then you added shims to the rebound piston which gave you proper rebound but gave you too much compression? how can rebound shims affect compression?
    Have you put the lsc adjuster back in the moco unit properly?
     
  27. Inclag

    Inclag Turbo Monkey

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    Call up a friend or find someone at a race that understands this fork. Removing shims from the speedstack or removing it all together makes no real difference in the LSC and makes a negligible one with respect to the HSC. I'm sorry but based on all your post I don't think you have a really good grasp at what is going on.

    It takes about an hour to do a complete strip down and overhaul of the entire fork, bushings not withstanding if you know what you are doing. Either there are some really serious things fudged up with your fork that you aren't translating to us or you are not spotting these issues. In which case I would suggest either posting photos of everything, or finding someone familiar with the fork that can look over it for you. In anycase, I find it hard to believe that the peanut gallery here will be able to diagnose or "fix" your fork based on your posts, what was "wrong" with the fork, and what you have done to "fix" the fork.

    I'm don't want to sound condescending and I applaud that you are being proactive and trying to fix stuff on your own. Either the previous owner did some really wacky stuff to it or something else is very off because stuff just isn't adding up. I know it may seem like alot to ask, but if you could do a complete tear down and take some close up picks of some of the more important components like glide-rings, seals, shut-off springs maybe we'll be able to figure out what is going on since there are alot of people who are quite knowledgeable with regard to these forks. Also show us how you have the gate plate installed since it can be installed 180 degrees backwards as well. Playing with shims in the stock Boxxer fork realistically doesn't have that much of an affect.
     
  28. Steve M

    Steve M Turbo Monkey

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    Sounds like you've effectively turned the check valve on the underside of the rebound piston into a shimmed compression piston. It's meant to be flimsy - all it has to do is move out of the way when the fork compresses. I would all but guarantee that you playing with that wasn't actually what fixed your fork's rebound damping. The Speed Stack doesn't actually do much if anything at all. Just to be sure though, are you running any clicks of compression?
     
  29. Muttely

    Muttely Monkey

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    No compression, socket, thats what i thinks happened, i need to drop the spring weight anyway. oddly enough, with the compression that has "occured" they seem to peform quite well, much like the BOS 888 one of my buddies owned, hmmph.
     
  30. Timekiller

    Timekiller Monkey

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    Sounds like you turned you rebound leg into a 'compression' unit. Not good, i would replace the shims as they were. The rebound should have no effect on the compression, unless the rod is not pushing oil into the moco.

    Another thing, which I highly doubt... My boxxers are pretty sensitive to oil level. Maybe try a few extra ml of oil. As others have said, if the rebound leg was inside the spring stanchion, the unit is probably severely damaged.
     
  31. Muttely

    Muttely Monkey

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    See thing is, if i remove thoser shims, its going to go back to zero damping, they are working alright for the moment, and should do until i can afford to ship them off to TF Tuned for a full damper pampering session.
     
  32. Timekiller

    Timekiller Monkey

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    Ok, but what I am saying is the rebound shims should not create compression. It might get screwed up even more, but I could be wrong and nothing will happen. Just a heads up.
     
  33. Muttely

    Muttely Monkey

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    fact is it wasnt working as standard, this is a bodge fix, and the damper probably needs replacing anyway, does anybody know the price for a race Moco stick?
     
  34. RUFUS

    RUFUS e-douche of the year

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    Go to your LBS and ask.
     
  35. Muttely

    Muttely Monkey

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    If i had an lbs, my life would be so, much easier.


    Oh wait, i do, but if i walked in and asked how much a motion control damper would cost, they would not reply, or, it would be "oh, oh no youll need a whole new fork..."
     
  36. RUFUS

    RUFUS e-douche of the year

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    Tell them to get on the computer and check BTI, I will check in a few and get you all of the info. That way you can walk right in, give them all the info and tell them to order.
     
  37. JeffKill

    JeffKill Monkey

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  38. Timekiller

    Timekiller Monkey

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