[BurlyShirley]

Dont get me wrong, I mean, I support the US in its endeavors here, but just what is it exactly that we expect these guys to do? Form a front and fight head on against an enemy that outguns them and is better trained, better financed and supported by a navy and air force and the richest nation on earth? I think beheading sucks, but then again, its probably no worse than having your legs blown off by a marine's hand grenade and bleeding to death.
These guys really dont have alot of options but to fight dirty, and while it sucks to watch, what else can you really expect? They're swaying the world's opinion by giving us a big dose of our own medecine...propaganda. Surely we're heavily influencing their thinking by dropping leaflets of info and feeding the poor, but this is just another tactic. So you say they're not combatants that are getting killed?
Well no ****. How do you expect some random dudes to take down a marine or soldier who's heavily armed and always got friends?

Seems simple to me. Maybe callous, but c'mon...this is a war. People die all the time. Quit getting so freaked out by what you're seeing. Its a war after all.

 

[ummbikes]

It's a quick death.

If you look at the history of warfare, which I know you have, the techniques of fighting a major force when you are small is to do silly stuff like hitting soft targets and inflicting politcal damage.

I'm in agreeance with you.

 

[Toshi]

i agree with you, BS. same rationale behind palestinians fighting israel -- they are hopelessly outgunned so turn to other tactics within their reach.

 

[MMike]

Yep. I can't argue. And what they ar doing is working flawlessly. It's having mulitple effects:

1) It's proving that they aren't ****ing around here.

2) And possibly more importantly(?), It's dividing their enemy. Americans right now really don't know what to think. Public opinion is all over the map. and there's an election coming up.

I hate it when people compare this to Viet Nam because I don't think that it's a fair comparison....that said however, it is similar because the US doesn't really know how to fight their enemy effectively. The VC totally caught the US off guard with their method of doing business. And now it's sort of happening again.

You really have to hand it to them. They know how to make the most out of what they have.

 

[MMike]

It's a quick death.

Eeep...not the way they've been doing it...

 

[chicodude]

It's a quick death.

If you look at the history of warfare, which I know you have, the techniques of fighting a major force when you are small is to do silly stuff like hitting soft targets and inflicting politcal damage.

I'm in agreeance with you.

-about 800 soilders have died over there. why doenst that piss as many people off?
-plus, does anyone remeber when the japenese disected people alive?

yea, i was more digusted when i saw it happened (damn decapataion movie, but that was my own fault for watching

the media is wonderful, ain't it?

 

[BurlyShirley]

You know, I think the worst part of all this though, is that this entire war could be over with if it werent for the media. This whole Abu Grahib thing, I mean yeah, it sucks for the dudes getting chem-lites in the can, but seriously, this is a goddam war after all. These beheadings are of very little significance in the grand scheme of things, but thanks to mass exposure from EVERY news source, we're getting forcefed this vietnam that doesnt really exist to the level its portrayed. Its a sad day when reality and entertainment face off, and big money changes the world and the way it views things. I just cant ****ing stand it anymore. What is wrong with people buying into it all? People are so stupid. If we could either (a) fight the war the way a war is supposed to be fought and blow some **** up and kill some people without Rumsfeld having a trial by fire every 4 minutes or (b) fight it the nice way and people have the patience to see it through, than none of this crap would be a big deal.
Such is life, I guess. ****

 

[MMike]

-about 800 soilders have died over there. why doenst that piss as many people off?
-

The only answer I can think of is that technically, they volunteered to be there. They accepted the risk...

 

[LordOpie]

Would it be fair to say... If beheadings and suicide bombers are understandable tactics, then so is blowing up buildings and airplanes? Isn't the only difference scale?

 

[MMike]

Would it be fair to say... If beheadings and suicide bombers are understandable tactics, then so is blowing up buildings and airplanes? Isn't the only difference scale?

Well pretty much. Go with whatcha know. It's their version of "Shock and Awe"...

 

[valve bouncer]

Would it be fair to say... If beheadings and suicide bombers are understandable tactics, then so is blowing up buildings and airplanes? Isn't the only difference scale?

Of course they're understandable tactics but they are also horrifying and unpardonable. Realising why someone does something doesn't make the act itself any easier to bear. And I don't agree with you Shirley, the beheadings are an outrage just as every innocent Iraqi civilian killed by an allied bomb is an outrage, just as every blown up Israeli bus is an outrage and every Palestinian child killed by Israeli airstrikes is an outrage. It all sickens and disgusts me as it should any right minded person.

 

[Slugman]

It's a quick death.

NO! A bullet to the head is quick... cutting someone’s head off with a knife is slow. Besides do you really think that it seems quick when they are doing it you... just think about how when you crash hard things slow down.

There was a French scientist that was accused of heresy (or some crap) during the French Revolution... so he was executed by guillotine. He tried an experiment where he blinked a certain pattern that would not be confused with involuntary muscle reactions - he did that pattern for over 30 seconds AFTER they took his head out of the catch basin...(sorry I don't have a link, going on memory of some Discovery program).


Since these conflicts are wars of ideas... violence will never stop them.

Has anyone ever disagreed with someone, fought them and lost and changed your opinion? If I think someone is a A-hole, and they kick my a$$... I still think they are an A-hole (I just know not to fight them, or to fight them in a different manner).

 

[Silver]

Of course they're understandable tactics but they are also horrifying and unpardonable. Realising why someone does something doesn't make the act itself any easier to bear. And I don't agree with you Shirley, the beheadings are an outrage just as every innocent Iraqi civilian killed by an allied bomb is an outrage, just as every blown up Israeli bus is an outrage and every Palestinian child killed by Israeli airstrikes is an outrage. It all sickens and disgusts me as it should any right minded person.

I was going to post something, but it would be redundant now. Well said.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Would it be fair to say... If beheadings and suicide bombers are understandable tactics, then so is blowing up buildings and airplanes? Isn't the only difference scale?

You dont think it's understandable? Note that that's alot different than agreeable or acceptable or something. Im not saying its ok to blow up buildings of innocents people or busses or airplanes, or cut their heads off...Im just saying its kind of inevitable. Its so inevitable and bound to happen that I am not "outraged" any more each time it happens because that's the only thing that can and will happen.

 

[LordOpie]

Im just saying its kind of inevitable.

Given an infinite universe and infinite time, everything is inevitable... so why not here, why not now?

 

[ummbikes]

I was being more than little sarcastic with the "quick death" statement. It's obviously a grusome way to die. Like others have already stated all the deaths are horrible. What they (Al Qaeda and the Iraqi "militants") are doing is is effective politically which is more than I can the United States is doing. It doesn't make them just, or moral, it makes them effective terrorists.

 

[BurlyShirley]

Given an infinite universe and infinite time, everything is inevitable... so why not here, why not now?

WTF kind of argument is that

 

[genpowell71]

Yes, its a gruesome way to die, yes it is effective politically, and yes its serving to divide a nation. But one thing you have to remember... The terrorists are going after civilians now instead of the military. They've finally learned that they cant get the same effect by killing a soldier here or a marine there. SO!! Lets go after someone who isnt allowed to carry a weapon and has had no formal training on self defense, hand to hand combat or how to notice if he's being watched. All this is saying is that the bad guys are desperate and need political firepower. It still doesnt chage the face that they are terrorists and need to be dealt with in the harshest way thinkable.

 

[bohica]

If I remember correctly, the terrorists stated that the beheading of Nicholas Berg was retaliation for the treatment of the Iraqi prisoners. How can anyone justify this as a reasonable retaliation. IMO if they want to start kidnapping and beheading prisoners, gloves off, time to forget about being politically correct and go in and with brute force and no mercy.

 

[Dingus McGee]

I'm not outraged, enraged or disengaged. I wasn't that shocked when the TTs went down, just amazed by the scale of the thing.

The world is full of uneducated, oppressed, suicidally hopeless peasants
controlled by religious fanatics and sociopaths. Yay for Humankind, we are a piece of work!

 

[Dingus McGee]

IMO if they want to start kidnapping and beheading prisoners, gloves off, time to forget about being politically correct and go in and with brute force and no mercy.

Against who? Where are they? Where's Osama? Kill 'em all? I don't think so. Mercy is a good thing. Put your gloves back on, the sand is hot.

 

[bohica]

against who? the terrorists. where are they? apparently all over the place. where's osama? don't know probably hiding in a cave. Kill em all? no, never said kill them all but don't go in to a hostile environment and try to be PC (for lack of a better term). The terrorists and insurgent groups do not operate by any set of rules where the allied forces operate under some kind of rules of war. Kind of hard to defeat an opponent if your not playing on a level field.

 

[genpowell71]

I agree completely with the "Go and get'em" sentiment. Problem we have is that he mountains where he is supposedly are huge and have extensive cave networks. Besides, Mushaaraf (pakistani president) sure is dragging his feet an awful lot to be serious about getting Bin Laden. Kinda makes you think

 

[llkoolkeg]

Deliberately targeting non-combatants is just not cool. I understand the rationale, but it is a cowardly one. Perhaps sniping babies nursing at the breast is the next step for them.

It would be one thing if it was a change in tactics against other combatants, but that's not the case here. The Redcoats, for instance, were very demoralized by patriot hit-n-run tactics and thought it cowardly that they sniped from behind fenceposts and fled instead of engaging in a nice, orderly exchanges of frontal volleys.

You take the fight to your enemy- not his sleeping children- if you ever expect to receive quarter under any circumstances.

 

[grimm]

i think there is a huge difference between understanding and accepting.. its totaly understandable that people come to drastic matters agains an overpowering enemy. also. its totally understandable how they can come to hate USA this much, when you think about how USA govmnt have acted the past wars they've been in and why they've been in them to begin with. Its all politics and US tends to back their politics with military force. i KNEW the second iraq war was gonna happen as soon as another Bush entered the white house. big surprice eh?

im not flaming american people in general here, so please dont take offence.

 

[LordOpie]

i KNEW the second iraq war was gonna happen as soon as another Bush entered the white house. big surprice eh?

because of PNAC, right? Because of the agressiveness of this administration as a whole, right? Not because of some stupid Bush-father-son-conspiracy bullsh:t, right?

 

[grimm]

because of PNAC, right? Because of the agressiveness of this administration as a whole, right? Not because of some stupid Bush-father-son-conspiracy bullsh:t, right?

LOL. i dont know what PNAC stands for.. but yes the agressiveness, lack of sympathy and compassion of the administration and the simple fact that Bush Jr and Bush Sr stand for the same politics. conspiracy or no conspiracy

not to mention the oilfields... like i said, i believe the US gov. went to war purely for political and selfish need

 

[Toshi]

LOL. i dont know what PNAC stands for.. but yes the agressiveness, lack of sympathy and compassion of the administration and the simple fact that Bush Jr and Bush Sr stand for the same politics. conspiracy or no conspiracy

not to mention the oilfields... like i said, i believe the US gov. went to war purely for political and selfish need

read up:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/
http://www.pnac.info/

 

[grimm]

read up:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/
http://www.pnac.info/

S.C.A.R.Y....

thanks Toshi for the links!