[lukeduke]

and death to be part of the racing. I have boycotted that place for a couple of years now. The fact that they have taken over the NORBA series is at best a joke. 4-up DH racing is a gimmick that will hurt a few people badly, then the pros will protest and sit out (like they did at a world cup 4x last year) because of the injury factor. No race = no paycheck. They can make way more $ and get more exposure doing the lame Jeep KOM races and the redbull races, they will just stop showing up to race the NORBA series. I can not wait for Mammoth National Champs this year. I am sure Team Big Bear will re-initiate the Kamikaze and just build 35 doubles on it, and call it the national title course (Maybe even route it throught the halfpipe part way down, have judges, give style points for big air?)

Racing has become a pathetic joke, Thanks Team Big Bear, we owe most of that to you.

Rant Over.

 

[Pip3r]

itll be cool to see, but are they still doing a regular DH as well? Theres no way they can just toss that in a few years (like they did with DS). While 4 man would definitly be fun, zoning out into your one little world is the best, the clock dont lie!

 

[derekbob]

There was a pinkbike thread on this a while back. The result was that everyone who had seen it done thought it was a good idea. Everyone who had claimed it was too dangerous had never seen it done, they got visions of carnage in their head just thinking about it. All of these races were held at the amature level, but I think the same could be appled to pros. They would have to be considerate of the format and not try to kill their fellow riders. And course design would be really important. Would this be too much to ask of pros??? I dont think so.

But FYI - Ive never seen this race format done and it did invoke thoughts of carnage when I first heard about it. But I have yet to hear one person who has actually participated in one of these events knock them for being too dangerous. Theres lots more dangerous forms of racing out there, like every race on a motorcycle.

 

[MMike]

MAybe pro's will start wearing body armour again...

 

[go-ride.com]

From what I've heard the BB DH4X course is made up of medium sized jumps. Nothing too big, but it's the poorly built medium jumps that wreck people the most. When you are going fast enough for a 40 footer, but the jump is a 2 ft tall 20 footer it tends to buck ya.

For the Pros I think it will be a safe event. I'd guess most of the contact will happen at the first turn when the speed isn't too high yet, and then they will probably get pretty spread out. As for the semi-pros I don't know if I'd want to be in that starting gate.

I've also heard that the DH points will be determined from 1 man qualifying runs and that the 4man DH runs are for bragging rights only. I don't know if this means there will be 2 podiums; one for the qualifier and one for the 4x.

As for comparing a MX or SX race to a 4XDH, I'm not sure if that's an accurate comparison. In MX/SX there are multiple lap races that allow for waiting for reasonably safe passing. In a 2 min. race where the start is so critical riders are going to be a bit more desperate to be in the front coming out of the first corner.

 

[slcpunk21]

Originally posted by BurlySurly
WTF are all you people talking about?

Havent you ever heard of a Hares Scramble or GNCC RACING ? We're talking 50 man starts onto a trail no bigger at all than a DH course.
These guys (not even close to all pros, beginners and all) go much faster over much nastier terrain with alot more riders than you'd ever get in some 4-man DH.

Too dangerous Please people, this is the best idea Ive heard yet because its actual DH "RACING" not a time trial.

Bunch of wusses around this place.

Yeah and look how much longer the race is for the Hare Scramble. People are able to spread out much more and take their time passing.. .They get to know the course and know when to pass and how to set it up the next time around.

On a DH run.. um it's one run.. no setting the guy up for the next lap it's go for broke/breakage on your one run. Not saying this is bad... just saying it's a bit different than a scramble.

So what we have to be like MX in order for our sport to be fun? How about you just go get a MX bike if that's what you want.

Better yet go grab a can of Mt. Dew... it will make you more EXTREME. Then everyone will like you more

 

[Brian Peterson]

Originally posted by slcpunk21

So what we have to be like MX in order for our sport to be fun? How about you just go get a MX bike if that's what you want.

So we should continue and emulate skiing instead?

Maybe we need a biathlon.... Ride a while and then do a little target shooting...

Is it so far fetched to do a 4 man DH? Most of do this same type of thing whenever we end up on a group ride.... Except for slcpunk21, who down below admits to crashing for his friends entertainment... Now there is a team player!

Let's see what happens first.... Seems to be the only jumping here is to conclusions...

Brian

 

[mental]

My employer forced us to take a course a bunch of years back.

It was called "Dealing with Change" and our instructor's favourite phrase was "Paradigm Paralysis". That's what many of you here seem to have.

Try it, you'll like it. It's not more "Extreme" it's more fun!

Maybe I'm just lazy and suffer from ADHD, but I prefer the definite feedback on how you're doing in a race. By the time race results are posted on the board, I've forgotten what we were there for. Racing 4 up, you always know where you are in the standings...

Change can be good, get over it!

 

[mgy]

Originally posted by derekbob
There was a pinkbike thread on this a while back. The result was that everyone who had seen it done thought it was a good idea. Everyone who had claimed it was too dangerous had never seen it done, they got visions of carnage in their head just thinking about it. All of these races were held at the amature level, but I think the same could be appled to pros. They would have to be considerate of the format and not try to kill their fellow riders. And course design would be really important. Would this be too much to ask of pros??? I dont think so.

THANK YOU! That is well put, everyone here that is bitching has never even seen a 4x dh race much less competed in one. I have done it and it was fun and as safe as regular time trial style downhill. Why do so many people who are not competing in the event have their panties in a wad?

 

[mental]

Almost forgot to mention, 4-man DH speeds tend to be slower than "old school" DH. In all the multi-racer DH races I've organized, seen or competed in, guys weren't pinning it through the trees elbow to elbow.

 

[Lex]

Originally posted by go-ride.com
From what I've heard the BB DH4X course is made up of medium sized jumps. Nothing too big, but it's the poorly built medium jumps that wreck people the most. When you are going fast enough for a 40 footer, but the jump is a 2 ft tall 20 footer it tends to buck ya.

For the Pros I think it will be a safe event. I'd guess most of the contact will happen at the first turn when the speed isn't too high yet, and then they will probably get pretty spread out. As for the semi-pros I don't know if I'd want to be in that starting gate.

I've also heard that the DH points will be determined from 1 man qualifying runs and that the 4man DH runs are for bragging rights only. I don't know if this means there will be 2 podiums; one for the qualifier and one for the 4x.

As for comparing a MX or SX race to a 4XDH, I'm not sure if that's an accurate comparison. In MX/SX there are multiple lap races that allow for waiting for reasonably safe passing. In a 2 min. race where the start is so critical riders are going to be a bit more desperate to be in the front coming out of the first corner.

Would this be a bracket system like regular 4x? If 32 riders made it through qualifying, and the top two from each heat went on, the top 4 riders would have to do 5 runs (including qualifying). How long would these courses be that they could make that happen efficiently and in a spectator friendly fashion?

 

[Zark]

Originally posted by Brian Peterson
Maybe we need a biathlon.... Ride a while and then do a little target shooting...

I've been wanting this for so long. It would be the only way I'd race XC again

 

[Brian Peterson]

Zark,
Maybe you are taking this 4 bar mulitia thing a little too seriously...

Brian

 

[slcpunk21]

Originally posted by Brian Peterson
So we should continue and emulate skiing instead?

Maybe we need a biathlon.... Ride a while and then do a little target shooting...

Brian

Yeah I always see DH ski races go threw the woods over rocks in a narrow arss path..

Dude, I'm not apposed to this asspect of it... if you read my first posts.. I'd like to see how it would all work out. Just don't want to see normal DH go away like how they tried to do away with DS... when 4x came out. Cause personally I think 4x is kinda boring to watch... don't honestly know why I like DS more, I just do. Kinda guess if the guy f's up it's his own fault don't have to listen to anyone mone about a guy bumping him the wrong way.... just my thoughts...

If this does come around... just hope it doesn't hurt the sport of mtbing at all....hell if it helps it all the better.

Oh and you mentioned somehting about the only things jumping here is people to conclusions? Ummm how about you don't jump to a conclusion as to what I do on a group ride. It's mainly filled with everyone looking at me going... HAHAHAHA.. look you crashed AGAIN...

(don't make me get my "jump to conclusions matt" out for you)

Eh guess I'm just in an arguing mood, if you haven't noticed

 

[Brian Peterson]

Ok... I edited my previous post for you...

Now a general statement..

The crazy thing is that with the state of the sport right now, people are so set on doing what has been done for so long... Change doesn't have to be bad. But at least give something new a chance before disgarding it.

Brian

 

[mental]

Originally posted by Brian Peterson
Ok... I edited my previous post for you...

Now a general statement..

The crazy thing is that with the state of the sport right now, people are so set on doing what has been done for so long... Change doesn't have to be bad. But at least give something new a chance before disgarding it.

Brian

Yeah, what he said. Believe it or not, sponsorship dollars aren't flowing into the sport like they did back in our early days. The current system ain't working the way it's supposed to and I applaud those who have the vision and conviction to at least try and get this change off the ground.

Whether or not it's a better format for the "TV" crowd remains to be seen, but as someone who's done it, I've never had as much fun racing as I do in the multi-racer DH.

Everybody sing along...

"All we are saying, is give (4-person DH) a chance....."

"If you refuse to go ahead unless you can be guaranteed of a sure thing, you'll never get very far."

With a sig like that I'd think you'd at the very least try it once before bagging on it!

 

[slcpunk21]

Originally posted by mental


With a sig like that I'd think you'd at the very least try it once before bagging on it!

umm have you read my posts? I have said now how many times?.......


"I disagree in a sense.... if someone is willing to do it let em..."

"Yeah depending on how it's setup it could be cool. "

"Dude, I'm not apposed to this asspect of it... if you read my first posts.. I'd like to see how it would all work out. Just don't want to see normal DH go away like how they tried to do away with DS... when 4x came out"


My whole point is... yes I'd be apposed to it if it was just a huge smooth BMX course going downhill. Make it mountain biking... but I guess what is mountain biking huh?... it's been changing so much lately.

I think it could be cool setup the right way.... There...

I'll repeat it again if necessary.

 

[dw]

Wow, this is a good one! Nice guys!


Im with Mental on the fact that balsting DH runs with my friends may be one of the most fun things that I do. I love it. Probably my favorite part about riding.

Still I wonder, the times are damn close nowadays in these races, adn unlike motorcycle racers, these guys dont have a throttle to get them out of trouble. You HAVE to maintain speed on the DH bike or you lose. Its a different world.

Personally I'm not opposed to the 4X Dh, but I have a lot of friends who will be out there going neck to neck, and if you think that any of them are going to hold up to let someone by, you dont hang around these guys enough.

We're gonna see this weekend. I just hope nobody gets hurt. From the sound of the couse, as long as nothing stupid happens in those medium sized jumps like Scott said, it may be all good!

Keep it coming guys and girls

dw

 

[HTFR]

objects in motion remain in motion until crashing in to the back of three other riders!

 

[derekbob]

So how many of you naysayers have actually competed in or seen one of these events???

 

[James | Go-Ride]

Somebody who doesn't work at a bike shop (where bad comments can mean bad backlash on the shop) should post something about how nobody really knows what's going to happen until Sunday.....

 

[MikeD]

Originally posted by bizutch


Riders hit dirt at 25mph and they hit a wall. When they contact the ground, every part of them immediately is pulled to a stop. Your shoulder hits the ground...stops, and whips your neck, slamming your head into the ground. Have the same wreck on snow or ice and your shoulder skids briefly before fully contacting the ground and you have a slight ability to roll through the impact. You still impact, but the force of the impact is tremendously less.

That hurt just to read.

MD

 

[Jeremy R]

Originally posted by derekbob
So how many of you naysayers have actually competed in or seen one of these events???

I have. Back when I first started racing DH.
It was brutal. In the Expert final, 2nd and 3rd place started fighting all the way down the course. Then when it got time for the finish line jump, they smacked each other in mid air, and when they hit the ground, neither one of them moved for 5 minutes, and one of them got worked and carried off.
It was bad azz and scary to watch. The dude involved went on to the pro class, and at Seven Springs qualified 32 when Palmer qualified 1. He then proceeded to smoke the Palm, and knocked him out of the race. He raced on pure balls.
Anyway, I am not a naysayer about 4xDH though. It all depends on the course if it will work or not.
Personally, I think it will be a snooze fest just like Mountain cross turned out to be. Mtn-X was supposed to be exciting bar to bar racing, but it turned out to be the first one to the first turn wins (most of the time). I can remember some awesome slalom races back in the day. Some were so close, you did not know who won until the announcer yelled it out. Now, that is racing. And say what you want to, but I have seen participation in 4X go way down as opposed to when it was just slalom. Especially in the lower classes. And if you ask any of our local pros, they all prefer slalom racing. I think the main mistake that was made with slalom was that people dropped the ball on the courses and they were lame.
Who knows, maybe I am wrong, and the 4X DH racing will be awesome. I hope so anyway.

 

[RhinofromWA]

I had a chance to race on the Mammoth Kamakazie Course the last time they ran it in 2000. They built some jumps near the bottom for some variety. It was some of the best adrenaline I have experienced.

There was 3 "speedbump" type rollers (like 2-3 foot high and very tame, like a big speedbump) that I couldn't see linking like a double single or a single double, and a table top. I think adding that to a wider course and running multiple guys at the same time would be a riot.

I have never been to BB and am curious to see how it goes down there.

I grew up racing motorcycles in the desert and woods. Passing is a part of racing and it becomes is less hairy everytime you do it.

SX had a time when there where fist fights and projectile bikes, but has since calmed down. I think any side by side Dh action would be accepted by the racers. Longer courses and variety would be key. A 2 minute run wouldn't be as much fun as a 3-7 minute run with 4 guys dooking it out.

I bet I could design a 6+ minute course at Schweitzer that would be 4 man DH friendly..... ahhh the dreams of a slow arse DHr...

 

[derekbob]

Originally posted by Jeremy R
I have....
...Who knows, maybe I am wrong, and the 4X DH racing will be awesome. I hope so anyway.

interesting, thats the first negative comment Ive heard from someone who was actually involved. Its a completely different beast from traditional DH for sure, its going to take some trial and error tweaking to get dialed properly. Hopefully no one gets seriously injured in the error part. Ive heard enuff positive comments to have some hope. Guess well just have to wait and see. Im still more or less convinced that the "blood on the DH course" prediction is a little unwarranted.

 

[bibs]

Its like NAsCAR on bikes...but NASCAR IS lame and inbred! and we can turn both ways hehehe

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
I had a chance to race on the Mammoth Kamakazie Course the last time they ran it in 2000. They built some jumps near the bottom for some variety. It was some of the best adrenaline I have experienced.

There was 3 "speedbump" type rollers (like 2-3 foot high and very tame, like a big speedbump) that I couldn't see linking like a double single or a single double, and a table top. I think adding that to a wider course and running multiple guys at the same time would be a riot.

i did the kamikaze (and the ncs race) at mammoth that year as well, and the tabletop nearly was the death of me. it was just too short for the speeds attainable on that course, and i was not the only one to land on my head after jumping past the landing, as the jump was razed between practice and the race iirc.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by bibs
Its like NAsCAR on bikes...but NASCAR IS lame and inbred! and we can turn both ways hehehe

Who's inbred? j/k

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by Toshi
i did the kamikaze (and the ncs race) at mammoth that year as well, and the tabletop nearly was the death of me. it was just too short for the speeds attainable on that course, and i was not the only one to land on my head after jumping past the landing, as the jump was razed between practice and the race iirc.

The table top was removed for the race....... wasn't it?(or is that what you wer saying?) I got like 18th in the Beg category on the Kamakazie (still have the shirt....never been worn.)

Yeah I brake hard (following another riders lead) going into the table the first time. I cleared it easily. I could see the landing marks past the jump.

I still loved the speed and the jumps just made it more interesting....I wish they had more tame jumps and spread them out.

 

[Toshi]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
The table top was removed for the race....... wasn't it?

Yeah I brake hard (following another riders lead) going into the table the first time. I cleared it easily. I could see the landing marks past the jump.

I still loved the speed and the jumps just made it more interesting....I wish they had more tame jumps and spread them out.

yup, the jump was torn down for the race. i crashed on my first run, didn't brake one bit, and hit my head hard enough to give me speech arrest for about 30 seconds. not fun.

 

[bibs]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
Who's inbred? j/k

hhmmm...good point...

 

[Dingus McGee]

just Balst it!

 

[RhinofromWA]

Originally posted by bibs
hhmmm...good point...

Well that shot is better than this one....

 

[bibs]

Originally posted by RhinofromWA
Well that shot is better than this one....

ahhahaah...youre a yuppie!!!! bbwwahhahahaha!!

 

[Tully]

I think a 4-man DH event might be very stupid, but not necessarily. It all depends on the course--if it's like a Super D course, it should be fine, but it would be deadly (and I mean that fairly literally) on a normal course. However, although I may eat my words someday, I don't think a 4-man DH event will last: It will being boring to watch on a "safe" course, and too dangerous otherwise. My other thought is that it may evolve into a really long mountaincross race.

 

[JeffD]

Hey Jeremy - they didn't collide in mid-air. The dude in second on the Foes tried to jump the little kicker like a dumbass and ate crap. Pinson just freaked out, grabbed too much brake and slid on the wet grass. Only reason he stayed down was because he t-boned Kovachi's trailer.

Doesn't change the fact that drama can happen but this was not a multi-rider issue, it was a matter of somebody riding over their head, which should be less of an issue with a pro-only class.

 

[mgy]

Originally posted by JeffD
Pinson just freaked out, grabbed too much brake and slid on the wet grass.

/B]

On a side note what ever happened to (Eric?) Pinson? He was probably the funniest person ever to race downhill!

 

[JeffD]

Last I heard he was riding motorcycles. He showed up at a local DS race in late '02, still sporting the same Bosworth hairstyle, same hilarious sh!t talkin' mouth and raced (and got beat badly) in some Jammaster J-looking shoes.

 

[bansheebikeman]

srry if someone already said this.. i dont have time to read 77 replies haha...

itl b like downhill domination!! blood and all!! SICK!

 

[offdawalley]

sounds a little CraHaaaOaaaaaaDazzzzzzzzzzEzyyyyyyyy