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An email forward I'll post instead of deleting:

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,335
15
in da shed, mon, in da shed
A picture began circulating in November. It should be "The Picture of
the Year," or perhaps, "Picture of the Decade." It won't be. In fact,
unless you obtained a copy of the US paper which published it, you probably
would never have seen it. The picture is that of a 21-week-old unborn baby
named Samuel Alexander Armas, who is being operated on by surgeon named
Joseph Bruner.

The baby was diagnosed with spina bifida and would not survive if
removed from his mother's womb. Little Samuel's mother, Julie Armas, is an
obstetrics nurse in Atlanta. She knew of Dr. Bruner's remarkable
surgical procedure. Practicing at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in
Nashville, he performs these special operations while the baby is
still in the womb.

During the procedure, the doctor removes the uterus via C-section and
makes a small incision to operate on the baby. As Dr. Bruner completed
the surgery on Samuel, the little guy reached his tiny, but fully
developed hand through the incision and firmly grasped the surgeon's finger.
Dr. Bruner was reported as saying that when his finger was grasped, it was
the most emotional moment of his life, and that for an instant during the
procedure he was just frozen, totally immobile.

The photograph captures this amazing event with perfect clarity. The
editors titled the picture, "Hand of Hope." The text explaining the
picture begins, "The tiny hand of 21-week-old fetus Samuel Alexander
Armas emerges from the mother's uterus to grasp the finger of Dr. Joseph
Bruner as if thanking the doctor for the gift of life." Little Samuel's
mother said they "wept for days" when they saw the picture. She said, "The
photo reminds us pregnancy isn't about disability or an illness, it's about
a little person." Samuel was born in perfect health, the operation 100
percent successful.



***Now it's time congratulate ourselves as Americans for "protecting a woman's right to choose". Hurrah for 2nd trimester abortions! It is, after all, just a "clump of cells"! No big deal! :o: ***
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,335
15
in da shed, mon, in da shed
OK...I'm a little bit confused. Even if we assume the "snopes" version is the 100% correct truth, what great misrepresentation was foisted on the public? What I took from the original version is that babies are babies even at 21 weeks. Whether or not the gripping of the doctor's finger was conscious, subconscious or autonomic was frankly not the point.

RM, although your last comment was a bit obnoxious, I have to admit I chuckled.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
llkoolkeg said:
OK...I'm a little bit confused. Even if we assume the "snopes" version is the 100% correct truth, what great misrepresentation was foisted on the public? What I took from the original version is that babies are babies even at 21 weeks. Whether or not the gripping of the doctor's finger was conscious, subconscious or autonomic was frankly not the point.

RM, although your last comment was a bit obnoxious, I have to admit I chuckled.

You can believe "snopes" because its on the internet silly...


:p
 

I Are Baboon

Vagina man
Aug 6, 2001
32,821
11,006
MTB New England
binary visions said:
Mind posting the text from that? Snopes is blocked on our company firewall.
The questions seemed to be around the fetus hand "grasping" the doctor's finger:


Origins: The pictures accompanying the text quoted above are real in that they are indeed photographs taken during a revolutionary fetal procedure undertaken on 19 August 1999 to fix the spina bifida lesion of a 21-week-old fetus in the womb. The operation was performed by a surgical team at Vanderbilt University in Nashville which developed a technique for correcting fetal problems in mid-pregnancy by temporarily removing the uterus, draining the amniotic fluid, performing surgery on the tiny fetus, then restoring the uterus back inside the mother. The patient shown above, Samuel Armas, was the 54th fetus operated on by the surgical team; Dr. Joseph Bruner, the surgeon whose hands are pictured above, alleviated the effects of the opening in Samuel's spine caused by the spina bifida, a congenital disease that often leads to paralysis and other problems. Pictures from the surgery were printed in a number of newspapers in the U.S. and around the world, including USA Today, and, thanks to the remarkable surgical procedure performed by the Nashville team, little Samuel was born healthy on 2 December 1999.

However, it is not true, as described in the accompanying text, that these photographs were taken as Samuel's hand "emerged from the mother's uterus to grasp the finger of Dr. Joseph Bruner as if thanking the doctor for the gift of life," or that Dr. Bruner said "when his finger was grasped, it was the most emotional moment of his life." This misinformation has been propagated by many different sources, including the photographer who took the pictures:

As a doctor asked me what speed of film I was using, out of the corner of my eye I saw the uterus shake, but no one's hands were near it. It was shaking from within. Suddenly, an entire arm thrust out of the opening, then pulled back until just a little hand was showing. The doctor reached over and lifted the hand, which reacted and squeezed the doctor's finger. As if testing for strength, the doctor shook the tiny fist. Samuel held firm. I took the picture! Wow! It happened so fast that the nurse standing next to me asked, "What happened?"

"The child reached out," I said.

"Oh. They do that all the time," she responded.1
What actually happened, as described in news reports of the surgery, was that:

Just as surgeon Dr. Joseph Bruner was closing the incision in Julie Armas' uterus, Samuel's thumbnail-sized hand flopped out. Bruner lifted it gently and tucked it back in. (The dubious veracity of the photographer's version of events is highlighted by his appended disclaimer stating that it represents his "opinion of the events as they took place during the surgery for Samuel.")

Dr. Bruner later elaborated on some of the exaggerated and false claims made about this picture:

"It has become an urban legend," says Bruner, the Vanderbilt University surgeon who fixed the spina bifida lesion on Samuel. Many people he hears from wonder whether it's a fake.

"One person said the photo had been reviewed by a team of medical experts and they had determined that it was a hoax," Bruner says with a laugh.

More commonly, people want to know how the photo came to be.

Some opponents of abortion have claimed that the baby reached through the womb and grabbed the doctor's hand.

Not true, Bruner says.

Samuel and his mother, Julie, were under anesthesia and could not move.

"The baby did not reach out," Bruner says. "The baby was anesthetized. The baby was not aware of what was going on."
Last updated: 7 May 2003
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,202
1,390
NC
llkoolkeg said:
Good grief, if ever there was a missed opportunity for an abortion... :rolleyes:
Changleen, like N8, is one of those people who, once in a great while, has something valid to say, but it is buried beneath the mounds of verbal diarrhea that spews forth at all other times. Just ignore him...

IAB, thanks for the post. I guess I wrongly assumed that one would have to be pretty unintelligent to believe that a 21 week old fetus consciously reached out and grasped a doctor's finger, "thanking him" for what he had done.

It is interesting to note that there was no "grasping" whatsoever, though.

What you didn't see in the picture, of course, was that when the hand emerged, it was actually giving "The Shocker".
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
binary visions said:
Changleen, like N8, is one of those people who, once in a great while, has something valid to say, but it is buried beneath the mounds of verbal diarrhea that spews forth at all other times. Just ignore him...
Ohh... so holier-than-thou now aren't ya?

Hey! Look up here BV...

:nuts:




:evil:
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,335
15
in da shed, mon, in da shed
binary visions said:
Changleen, like N8, is one of those people who, once in a great while, has something valid to say, but it is buried beneath the mounds of verbal diarrhea that spews forth at all other times. Just ignore him...

IAB, thanks for the post. I guess I wrongly assumed that one would have to be pretty unintelligent to believe that a 21 week old fetus consciously reached out and grasped a doctor's finger, "thanking him" for what he had done.

What you didn't see in the picture, of course, was that when the hand emerged, it was actually giving "The Shocker".
Why did you wrongly assume "that one would have to be pretty unintelligent to believe that a 21 week old fetus consciously reached out and grasped a doctor's finger, "thanking him" for what he had done"? You have to consider the source of the original write-up. That's why I mentioned that it was an email forward that 99% of the time gets deleted. Obviously, the writer had a bias just as those dismissing it as insignificant nonsense have theirs. If you think that patients do not sometimes come to during and just after surgeries, though, I'd suggest you do a little research.

The only acutal witness to the event was the doctor(with surgical team) and the photographer, the latter of which descibed it thus-

As a doctor asked me what speed of film I was using, out of the corner of my eye I saw the uterus shake, but no one's hands were near it. It was shaking from within. Suddenly, an entire arm thrust out of the opening, then pulled back until just a little hand was showing. The doctor reached over and lifted the hand, which reacted and squeezed the doctor's finger. As if testing for strength, the doctor shook the tiny fist. Samuel held firm. I took the picture! Wow! It happened so fast that the nurse standing next to me asked, "What happened?"

"The child reached out," I said.

"Oh. They do that all the time," she responded.


Now look at the way the reporter(who was not there) described it:

What actually happened, as described in news reports of the surgery, was that-
Just as surgeon Dr. Joseph Bruner was closing the incision in Julie Armas' uterus, Samuel's thumbnail-sized hand flopped out. Bruner lifted it gently and tucked it back in. (The dubious veracity of the photographer's version of events is highlighted by his appended disclaimer stating that it represents his "opinion of the events as they took place during the surgery for Samuel.")


Can you not detect the bias in his description? I guess no matter what evidence exists, people will believe only that with which they are comfortable in believing.
 

binary visions

The voice of reason
Jun 13, 2002
22,202
1,390
NC
llkoolkeg said:
Why did you wrongly assume "that one would have to be pretty unintelligent to believe that a 21 week old fetus consciously reached out and grasped a doctor's finger, "thanking him" for what he had done"? You have to consider the source of the original write-up.
I actually edited my post for clarification, as I didn't mean that it was stupid to think that the fetus had a certain amount of muscular control. I actually meant that the sentiment of grasping a finger in thanks was far and above what even a newborn is capable of.
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,335
15
in da shed, mon, in da shed
binary visions said:
I actually edited my post for clarification, as I didn't mean that it was stupid to think that the fetus had a certain amount of muscular control. I actually meant that the sentiment of grasping a finger in thanks was far and above what even a newborn is capable of.
Agreed. I miss the good ol' days when the laughable nature of yellow journalism was as easy for most to spot as that in 'Dope Mania' or 'The Devil's Harvest'.
 

mack

Turbo Monkey
Feb 26, 2003
3,674
0
Colorado
I am for a women to choose for an abortion as long as the baby is still a clump of cells and not as developed as say a 20 month old baby...
 

.:Jeenyus:.

Turbo Monkey
Feb 23, 2004
2,831
1
slc
mack said:
I am for a women to choose for an abortion as long as the baby is still a clump of cells and not as developed as say a 20 month old baby...
20 month old baby in a womb? :confused:

You need some serious :help:. 9 months is about average, 20 is unheard of.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,405
22,487
Sleazattle
.:Jeenyus:. said:
20 month old baby in a womb? :confused:

You need some serious :help:. 9 months is about average, 20 is unheard of.
Too funny, a 20 month old fetus would be able to chew its way out.
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,335
15
in da shed, mon, in da shed
Silver said:
No one's arguing the doctor isn't human.
Hahaha.

In my experience, a majority of doctors are godless, self-aggrandizing elitists who care less for their charges than a mechanic does a carburetor. Unlike lawyers, however, they still qualify as human.
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
llkoolkeg said:
Hahaha.

In my experience, a majority of doctors are godless, self-aggrandizing elitists who care less for their charges than a mechanic does a carburetor. Unlike lawyers, however, they still qualify as human.
An engineer dies and finds himself at the pearly gates. St Peter consults his list of those who are to be admitted to heaven, ‘Sorry my son,’ says St Peter ‘Your name is not on my list. I’m afraid you are off to hell.’
And with that the engineer is whisked off to hell where he is put straight into eternal torment in the furnaces of hell.

However, after a few weeks of back-breaking labour in searing heat the engineer begins to see where improvements can be made and over the next couple of months installs conveyor belts, pulleys, air conditioning, hot and cold running water and a jacuzzi.

Around this time Satan wanders past on one of his occasional forays into his domain and is astonished by the improvements. As a result he gets on the hotline to God.

‘God, me old mucker,’ says Satan, ‘Thanks for that engineer you sent down here. He’s made the place bearable again, you not such a bad chap after all.’

‘Engineer?’ thunders The Almighty, ‘Engineer? You shouldn’t have any engineers, send him back to me now!’

‘Hold on old chap,’ says Satan (in his best British accent) ‘You sent him down here, he’s mine now.’

‘No’ roars God, ‘There’s clearly been an error, all the engineers are supposed to come here. Return him to me or I’ll sue!’

‘Oh yeah?’ retorts Satan, ‘And where are you going to find a lawyer?’
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
llkoolkeg said:
Hahaha.

In my experience, a majority of doctors are godless, self-aggrandizing elitists who care less for their charges than a mechanic does a carburetor. Unlike lawyers, however, they still qualify as human.

That's exactly the kind of doctor you want when your health is on the line....
 

llkoolkeg

Ranger LL
Sep 5, 2001
4,335
15
in da shed, mon, in da shed
N8 said:
That's exactly the kind of doctor you want when your health is on the line....
I could tell you some HORRIFYING stories were it not for the fact that my baby girl's case is still underway. I'm not sure what the fix is but healthcare in this country sucks now unless you are either rich or have a premier health benefits plan. I'm sure Billary's proposed scheme would have sucked, but to tell you the truth, I would be listening a little more closely these days. My company's plan now frankly sucks monkey plums and healthcare quality for the masses is in a rapid downward spiral. I think it'll be THE big issue in 2008; I know it'll be for me.

Thanks for the chortle, fluff!
 

valve bouncer

Master Dildoist
Feb 11, 2002
7,843
114
Japan
llkoolkeg said:
I could tell you some HORRIFYING stories were it not for the fact that my baby girl's case is still underway. I'm not sure what the fix is but healthcare in this country sucks now unless you are either rich or have a premier health benefits plan. I'm sure Billary's proposed scheme would have sucked, but to tell you the truth, I would be listening a little more closely these days. My company's plan now frankly sucks monkey plums and healthcare quality for the masses is in a rapid downward spiral. I think it'll be THE big issue in 2008; I know it'll be for me.

Thanks for the chortle, fluff!
Isn't Michael Moore's next movie gonna be about the health care system?
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
llkoolkeg said:
I think it'll be THE big issue in 2008; I know it'll be for me.
Oddly enough becoming a father has made me look rather more closely at health care. Although we have socialised medicine here I'm still gonna plump for some kind of private deal.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,003
149
The Cleft of Venus
llkoolkeg said:
I could tell you some HORRIFYING stories were it not for the fact that my baby girl's case is still underway. I'm not sure what the fix is but healthcare in this country sucks now unless you are either rich or have a premier health benefits plan. I'm sure Billary's proposed scheme would have sucked, but to tell you the truth, I would be listening a little more closely these days. My company's plan now frankly sucks monkey plums and healthcare quality for the masses is in a rapid downward spiral. I think it'll be THE big issue in 2008; I know it'll be for me.

Thanks for the chortle, fluff!
I have a good but expensive plan... Yeah, some kind of reform is needed especially where costs are concerned. One of the biggest factors in high healthcare costs is lawsuits.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
N8 said:
I have a good but expensive plan... Yeah, some kind of reform is needed especially where costs are concerned. One of the biggest factors in high healthcare costs is lawsuits.
We don't need lawsuit reform to get health care costs down. All we need is a cafeteria style plan with high deductibles that doctors can choose from for their malpractice insurance. Or we could make it legal for them to simply go without it. All insurance does is take away the doctor's incentive to do a good job. We need to start making doctors responsible for their own malpractice.