[dexterq20]

On Saturday morning at about 9:00 am, two friends (RM users Heath Sherratt and Manziman) and I were doing some shuttle runs on an unmarked and signless trail in the Berkeley (CA) hills.

We reach a trail junction about 1/3 of the way down the run at the same time as a hiker is coming up the trail. We stop to let the hiker pass, and Heath is in the lead, followed by Manzi, and then me.

The hiker comes up to Heath and says, "Bikes aren't allowed on this trail." Heath says, "Oh, ok, we'll just go to the bottom and be done then." Then the hiker says, "No, you need to walk your bikes back up to the top." Heath replies with a hearty "No", and then he tries to go on down the trail.

However, the hiker grabs Heath's handlebars and tries to push him and keep him from going down the trail. Heath shoves the hiker and yells at him to get the hell away from him, so the hiker lets Heath go. Then it's Manzi's turn, and the guy starts to do the same thing to him, trying to block him from going down the trail.

Manzi starts trying to negotiate with the hiker, so I just go around him, and the hiker then grabs my handlebars as I try to go past him. I have to pry him off of my bike and push him away, and while I'm "wrestling" with this trail Nazi, Manzi is able to scoot on by without incident. The psycho hiker finally gave up, and we continued our ride uninterrupted.

Now remember, this trail has absolutely NO signage, so we were not riding an illegal trail. This was not the first hiker who had told us the trail was illegal for bikes, but we have also encountered many hikers on this trail in the past who said that bikes ARE allowed.

Would there have been any other way to handle this situation? This is the first time I've ever heard of (or experienced) a hiker trying to get physical with 3 DH riders, 2 of whom were significantly bigger than he was. I've been thinking about this for a little bit now, and it's really been bugging me. What do you guys think?

 

[Curb Hucker]

you handled it well, the good ol' go fvck yourself im gonna ignore you approach works well or you coulda just beat him up :nuts:

 

[SirChomps-a-Lot]

There is no legal singletrack in the berkeley hills.

also, you need to be nice to hikers. Just genuinely wish him a nice day and ride away.

 

[The Kadvang]

Wow. People can be really crazy sometimes. Check over on the passion boards over on MTBR, there is a thread about how some hiker sprayed two riders with pepper spray. IMHO, you handled the situation as best as you could. While to him walking your bikes up the trail might have seemed a viable option (people are weird) to him, obviously pushing a DH bike back up a trail does not work for most of us. His sudden use of force is really, really strange, and it seems you dealt with it as best as possible. I experienced a somewhat similar road rage incident a while back, when some guy attemped to attack me and two friends in our truck as we were going to ride. I was thinking exactly like you are/were: "Why would this guy attempt to get physical with us?" Similarly, we were on a somewhat isolated road and he was an older man, attacking three yournger people in a truck, one of whom happens to be going to West Point, another who is easily over 6'4", 200 pounds. Why do people look for trouble? I couldn't really find a satisfactory answer either...

 

[The Kadvang]

also, you need to be nice to hikers. Just genuinely wish him a nice day and ride away.

I completely agree with that, but what if he/she becomes provacative and attemps to fight? Then what?

 

[Transcend]

If someone were to grab my bars, no matter what, he who get knocked the f**k out. Considering you were doing nothing wrong, he shoudl be happy he didn't get popped.

A little respect goes a long bloody way. This goes BOTH ways. I normally smile and wave at hikers and they wave back and say hi. Same for Xc riders coming up 2 way trails. Hell, even in Boulder, town of militant hiker trail nazis, this was usually the case.

 

[The Kadvang]

If someone were to grab my bars, no matter what, he who get knocked the f**k out. Considering you were doing nothing wrong, he shoudl be happy he didn't get popped.

A little respect goes a long bloody way. This goes BOTH ways. I normally smile and wave at hikers and they wave back and say hi. Same for Xc riders coming up 2 way trails. Hell, even in Boulder, town of militant hiker trail nazis, this was usually the case.

The thing about R3SP3CT going both ways is completely right, but around here it is hopelessly lacking. Plenty of times I have been riding and slowed down for hikers/equestridarians (sp?) especially, and said hi, and all I got back was some assh0le response. Really pisses me off. Never had a problem with other riders though.

 

[kidwoo]

I try to make a point to actually engage in a conversation when that sort of thing happens. Maybe you could have asked how he "knew" the trail was closed for bikes? Most runners I've encountered will just snap some snide remark and keep going, rarely taking the time to acknowledge the fact that you are sentient being.

Berkely is tough. But that sort of interchange IS what led to Marin/Mt Tam becoming the sierra club guided hell for bikes that it is. Tahoe is not quite at such a risk but I'd make it a point to leave people with a warm fuzzy feeling regarding bikes if I were in Berkely. Without being there, it sounds like there wasn't much you could do to communicate with this guy but is sucks that this is one more person who will now have "bikers are pricks" imprinted on his brain.

Maybe you should have just killed him, left him there and then covered up your tire tracks.

 

[dexterq20]

Maybe you should have just killed him, left him there and then covered up your tire tracks.

Yeah, not so much.

It was unfortunate, because I was not the first one down the trail, so therefore I did not witness the beginning of the interaction with the hiker. However, I think this hiker believed he had Super Citizen Power or something, and I don't think there was any way around this whole debacle. Besides, Berkeley is famous for its population of weirdos, hippies, and straight-up wackos.

 

[chicodude]

you should have knocked his punk ass out.


Ive never had trouble with hikers before

 

[manziman]

yea, that was def. an interesting morning. He looked friggen weird, too. thick glasses, some hippie book and right to his "citizens arrest". pfft, I reasoned with the dude who wouldn't want to listen, but it was just funny to see heath push him over. It was also scary to see him contemplate picking up a rock to throw at dexter. I kind of want to go back there and just smack him in the mouth, I know thats wrong and not right, but it still kinda pisses me off how he's budgin' into my life. oh well, ç'est la vie. It was still a good day of riding.

 

[Repack]

A Trail Nazi with a Napoleon complex?

 

[BurlyShirley]

hook him up deliverance style

 

[SprungShoulders]

Alas, trail encounters are one area we lose out to equestrians. Though horses do tons more damage to trails than bikes do (not to mention leaving nice little surprises that get flug up into your face when you ride over them), and in general are more deserving of the Scourge of the Environmental Universe label, it's generally unwise to get into an argument with someone riding a 1/4 - 1/2 ton animal with sharp metal bits nailed to its feet.

Bike riders seem a far easier target for the ire of nazi hikers, though body armor and full-face helmets seem to give them more pause before they exercise their perceived gawd-given right to stick their damn noses into other people's business.

 

[Big E]

yeah i guess thats the good way to handle it. but if it ever happens in Texas anyone is fair game to knock the f*** out. god i love my state.

 

[BMXman]

If someone were to grab my bars, no matter what, he who get knocked the f**k out. Considering you were doing nothing wrong, he shoudl be happy he didn't get popped.

A little respect goes a long bloody way. This goes BOTH ways. I normally smile and wave at hikers and they wave back and say hi. Same for Xc riders coming up 2 way trails. Hell, even in Boulder, town of militant hiker trail nazis, this was usually the case.

I have to agree...I'm really not a violent person but once someone puts their hands on me then all bets are off....D

 

[Private Joker]

That's why I always bring a shovel when I ride...you never know when you have to dig a hole.

I would have donkey punched that turd the second he touched me.
"Condolences!...the Bums lost!"

 

[Acadian]

"you touched my bike without my permission???"

I Think you guys did the right thing...

 

[Matt D]

That's why I always bring a shovel when I ride...you never know when you have to dig a hole.

I would have donkey punched that turd the second he touched me.
"Condolences!...the Bums lost!"

Donkey punch a trail nazi huh? That's kinky

As far as handling the situation, it sounds as though you guys did the best thing you could. Assuming the first guy to encounter the hiker didn't cop an attitude to piss him off. But when the 2nd person tried to reason with him and he still freaked out, that's scary.

As soon as he put his hands on any of you or part of your property, I think you would have been justified to at least shove him away and put him on the ground or even as other's have so eloquently said "knock his punk ass out." I'm surprised that your buddies in front of you didn't stop to help you get by, but instead just rode off and left you alone with psycho hiker dude who would throw rocks at you.

 

[Instigator]

Count me in with Trancend, BMXman and Acadian. The guy grabs you or your property, I call it defending myself in any manner I can. bye bye!

 

[Echo]

Man I'm a pretty nonviolent person. But that dude was ASKING for a beating. BEGGING even.

 

[Brian HCM#1]

Welcome to Bay Area riding:angry:

 

[Rockland]

I dunno about punching at some dude just for grabing my bike. Hell, I don't think I'd try to punch 'em even if they tried to restrain me from riding down the trail. I would hope that most of you wouldn't really hit 'em. Shure, if they actualy swing at you, all out war is fair. What then? Americangladiatorguy beats up old hippie - that's what the authorities will hear back in town. Sad thing is the stinky old hippie bastard's word probably caries more weight than your's.

 

[Rockland]

Makes me glad to live in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Lizard0fthetrai]

Wow, I've never encountered anyone like that, let alone any flack at all from another trail user...guess I'm quite lucky. I agree with the stray from violence idea, but after hearing stoney's response...

 

[Zark]

Wow, I mean wow. That asshat Vanderham must have some family in SB. Those safetrails.org guys have toned down their antics, but along similar lines with booby traps and nasty trail incidents.

It sounds like you handles it as good as possible, civil to the point where it escalated.
Once a hand lands on you or your bike its time for a head butt TLD style! He got off light with a little shove.

 

[kidwoo]

YOu have just encountered Mike Vanderham. -Stone

Sweet. So what IS his address? Email address? I'm bored. Give me something to do.

 

[syadasti]

Another reason to get some bear/mountain lion spray. Would be fun to try it on him...

 

[Dusty Bottoms]

It sounds as though you guys handled the situation as best as possible...

BUT...

Just because a trail has no signage DOES NOT mean it's open to bikes. It is the trail users responsibility to know the rules and regulations of any trail/park they happen to be riding.

However, even if you were riding an illegal trail, no hiker has the authority to stop you, or touch you and/or your stuff.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the sierra club and other more aggresive anti-bike clubs have been known to link to threads LIKE THIS ONE which is filled with "kick the hikers ass" comments to prove that we are not capable of sharing trails with hikers. Probably best to squash those comments.

 

[me89]

also, you need to be nice to hikers. Just genuinely wish him a nice day and ride away.

and you've had encounters like they had right. cause if you did and thats how you took care of it then you must not come accross psyco hikers very often or never.

Oh, ok, we'll just go to the bottom and be done then.

and you cant get much nicer than that. there was no apology needed or nothin just we will get off the trail as soon as we get to the bottom. and even if you hiked back up its not like we are gona cary the bikes to the top were goin to push them up which does just as much damage. its the hiker who caused all the probs.

just be glad you guys arent in asheville. hippies will put close lines accross the trails(even bike legall trails) to **** us up, so you got to really be watchin here.

 

[narlus]

it's vandeman, not vanderham.

either way you spell it, he's a total creepy psycho.

he once emailed the IT dept at work here, tattling on me and a friend that we were subbed on a mtb list using a work account. the IT guy told him to **** off.

 

[dexterq20]

YOu have just encountered Mike Vanderham. THE trail nazi...

Whoa. Good to know.

I'd put my money on it that you guys are younger?

Yes and no. One of the guys (Heath) is 30. Manzi and I are 19.

He's been in lots of trouble with the local PD for assaulting cyclist on Side-O.... The Side-O ticket is $200.... Just to add, riding side-o is a misdemeanor.

Ok, thanks for the info. We were definitely riding Side-O. That's kinda scary stuff. Maybe I shoulda kicked him in the nuts for good measure. :nuts:

 

[me89]

exactly damn rude ass hipies. if they want trail respect they need to earn it instead of thinking that they own the damn place. im a hiker and a biker there is nothing wrong with sharing and respecting each other geese its not that hard. a little kindness goes a long way.

 

[blue]

Wow...I don't think I've had many bad experiences with other trail users, I just try to be as nice as possible and yield to everyone. The extent of my experiences have been riding behind four horses for half an hour (The hikers were bitching about it too...) and having a hiker give me a dirty look as I flew down a huge dirt road. Maybe people are just nicer here

If I'd been in your position, I would've told him firmly to let go of my bike, and if he'd have pushed me, he would've gotten the crap kicked out of him. I don't tolerate physical assaults, no matter who its from. I think you had every right to drop him and let the local PD know.

 

[Transcend]

I remember him from way back in the days of usenet. Good to see he is still a nutty militant bastard.

He used to post on a plethora of cycling news groups, a few email lists (particularly the DH one some guy names steve i think ran) and also routinely send me scathing emails at transcend. I should be keeping them and posting them online, i love getting emails from this guy.

I love that the PD just ignores it when he gets what he deserves. And for Rock...normally i, like bmxman, am not a sociopathic person. However, as soon as this tard would have tried to lay hands on me, he would have gotten punched the f**k out.

You don't lay your hands on someone unless you are ready for the consequences. He would have gotten one firm warning to remove his hands from me and my bike, and then would have received a beatdown.

 

[kidwoo]

I should be keeping them and posting them online, i love getting emails from this guy.

.

Oohh yeah, do it do it!!!!

Sharing is caring.

 

[B_A_MTBIKER]

That Sh!t isn't even close to cool...El Hiker Fella would still be limping from the ass-whooping I would have dealt.

 

[s1ngletrack]

That is very strange - I stumbled across Michael Vandeman "PhD"s web page last week - just by chance - that guy is a militant fruitcake, I sent him an e-mail to tell him so - only because his webpage had a link that said "comments?" He sent me a very amusing response. Strange that I would happen accross the @ssholes rants 1 week before hearing about him assaulting someone from RM

 

[OGRipper]

I live in SF and have had more encounters with bay area trail nazis than I can remember. More often than not the hikers and equestrians are pleasant but every so often you get the real angry types, which runs kind of contary to the idea of getting outside, communing with nature, etc.

What bothers me the most is how they are usually exclusionary, even though it's a public trail. (Imagine if cyclists were trying to keep hikers off the trails! We're not, we just want equal access.)

I was talking to a hiker the other day. She was saying how a group of mountain bikers "ruined her serenity" out on a trail a few weeks back, even though (when pressed) she admitted that the trail was legal for bikes and they were a nice bunch who slowed down, said hello, etc. She just kept saying that bikes and hikers are incompatible uses. I turned the tables on her and said that I was out flowing some sweet legal singletrack and my "serenity" was ruined when I had to stop for some hikers...she got the point, which is that I had just as much right to be out there enjoying the PUBLIC trails on a bike as I would if I was on foot, and that occasionally we all need to snap out of our self-centered, happy nature communing to get along with different user groups. On the PUBLIC trails.

Of course there are a lot of yahoos out there right now bombing illegal trails on dh bikes, people who don't understand trail etiquette and go around scaring the snot out of people (if not actually hitting them) and making it that much harder for the rest of us. To you I say, hope you get lots of flats and blown seals...

 

[RhinofromWA]

When he put his hands on you.......

Isn't that assult....I mean he wasn't going to give you a hug. If you jsut got away and reported his ass, filed a report then you would be clean and he'd have assult charges on him and all the crap that goes along with it.

Selfdefense is another claim you can use but it it must not look excessive....

Just some random non-legal advice. He grabs ahold of me I am working hard to get him off me, but I am not going to chase him to the ground and keep hitting him. Just enough to get away. They report his ass again, and again, and again.