[$tinkle]

Report: First two years of college show small gains

Nearly half of the nation's undergraduates show almost no gains in learning in their first two years of college, in large part because colleges don't make academics a priority, a new report shows.

my first reaction is to cry foul, that it's entirely up to the students to make academics a priority, and while true, i also believe our unis could hold themselves up as institutions of learning, and not businesses, which i believe they've mutated into being.

also disturbing

After two years in college, 45% of students showed no significant gains in learning; after four years, 36% showed little change.

Students also spent 50% less time studying compared with students a few decades ago, the research shows.

"These are really kind of shocking, disturbing numbers," says New York University professor Richard Arum, lead author of the book, published by the University of Chicago Press.

He noted that students in the study, on average, earned a 3.2 grade-point average. "Students are able to navigate through the system quite well with little effort," Arum said.

i think there's quite a bit of enabling going on, and it's not doing much for either the students' adulthood in the workplace, and keeps them saddled w/ student debt by not creating competitive monkeys

 

[Pesqueeb]

Thats totally unfair. My first two years of college I learned an amazing amount about beer, Goldeneye, Duke Nukem and Mariokart. All of that knowledge has served me quite well in the subsequent years.

 

[$tinkle]

i imagine the ever-learning toshi may have a strong opinion on this topic. i also imagine mmike will accuse him of being related to this mom, for academic reasons, of course

 

[jonKranked]

I think the existence of the BCS bowl series validates that study.

 

[stoney]

Thats totally unfair. My first two years of college I learned an amazing amount about beer, Goldeneye, Duke Nukem and Mariokart. All of that knowledge has served me quite well in the subsequent years.

Exactly, my first two years were the same. It was the next three when I started learning real things. Then again those were in anthropology, which are not a usable science or anything of the sort.

 

[valve bouncer]

i imagine the ever-learning toshi may have a strong opinion on this topic. i also imagine mmike will accuse him of being related to this mom, for academic reasons, of course

I'm gonna slightly get behind Amy here. Her methods as described are obviously ott (or exaggerated perhaps) but as a teacher I much prefer parents to be over involved than not-interested at all. Those helicopter/control freak mums are a pain in the arse to deal with but not as much of a pain in the arse as the kids of those parents who are completely uninvolved.
Amy's kids will f*cked up little neurotic bastards but they won't be threatening your life with a switchblade knife.

 

[X3pilot]

Eh, I didn't start college until I was 38 and then had my rich Uncle pay for it so I don't see their point...


Which is my point. I think "brick and mortar" universities and colleges are good for learning how to party on your own after high school, but every bit of college pays off when you're older, ready to utilize it, gain from it and there are consequences if you don't perform and keep that GPA up.

 

[$tinkle]

I'm gonna slightly get behind Amy here

i would have expected nothing less.
also, i'm leaning greatly toward her, but without the degradation.

Which is my point. I think "brick and mortar" universities and colleges are good for learning how to party on your own after high school, but every bit of college pays off when you're older, ready to utilize it, gain from it and there are consequences if you don't perform and keep that GPA up.

b&m unis also are irreplaceable for networking; strong personal bonds & loyalties are formed as strong as military service. plaxo/linkedin/et al are highly ineffective unless you're a whoring head hunter

just makes me more firmly believe in 2 yrs conscription, as implemented by some of those 'lesser countries'

 

[Pesqueeb]

i think the existence of the bcs bowl series validates that study.

qft!!

 

[binary visions]

Holding up some higher standards and being willing/quick to fail the idiots would be a start.

The majority of 19 year olds are going to do exactly what is necessary to not fail. Of course you're going to drink all night, skip class and play Mario Kart instead of studying if you can still get a C in the class that way.

There seems to be a tremendous amount of pressure to not fail students, or to provide so many avenues for them to succeed that the tiniest hint of effort in any one of them will result in passing grades.

 

[Pesqueeb]

The majority of 19 year olds are going to do exactly what is necessary to not fail. Of course you're going to drink all night, skip class and play Mario Kart instead of studying if you can still get a C in the class that way.

Get out of my head!!!

 

[$tinkle]

...to not fail students

split infinitive

repeat grammar 101?

 

[moff_quigley]

I just started a master program and none of this surprises me. My 1st instructor was going out of his way to give extra points. Class was even graded on a curve (I set the curve on the mid-term and final, heh). I ended up getting a 99% in the class since he was handing out points like herpes medicine @ The Jesey Shore house.

I was expecting a more academically trying atmosphere especially since this is grad school.

 

[ebarker9]

It's only in year three that one learns to use different colors in a pie chart (seriously, different shades of light blue?).

I also didn't see any kind of breakout by major/focus area. Coming from a math/science/engineering background, I'd say that a lot of the article still holds true but we absolutely learned a ton the first two years.

 

[jonKranked]

I just started a master program and none of this surprises me. My 1st instructor was going out of his way to give extra points. Class was even graded on a curve (I set the curve on the mid-term and final, heh). I ended up getting a 99% in the class since he was handing out points like herpes medicine @ The Jesey Shore house.

I was expecting a more academically trying atmosphere especially since this is grad school.

this is how i managed to get a 117% on my polymer chemistry final in college. He had to curve so hard that even with me at 100% most of the class was still failiing. i didn't complain, it offset 2 failing tests I had from the first half of the term (grade was based on 3 exams, midterm, & final) and I wound up with an A. Let it also be noted that after those first 2 F's I busted my ass to keep it from happening again.

 

[johnbryanpeters]

Eh, I didn't start college until I was 38 and then had my rich Uncle pay for it so I don't see their point...


Which is my point. I think "brick and mortar" universities and colleges are good for learning how to party on your own after high school, but every bit of college pays off when you're older, ready to utilize it, gain from it and there are consequences if you don't perform and keep that GPA up.

That. For the most part, working for a few years should be required prior to going to college. I did one semester of fvcking off on Dad's nickel after high school, then worked, did the Army thing, worked, then went to Northeastern serious like using my saved cash and the GI bill.

 

[binary visions]

I also didn't see any kind of breakout by major/focus area. Coming from a math/science/engineering background, I'd say that a lot of the article still holds true but we absolutely learned a ton the first two years.

There are certainly some areas where you will sink in a major in the first two years. Two of the classes that were part of the IT major and designed to give you a taste of whether you wanted to pursue the networking major had a shocking failure rate and my degree program ended up with only 8 people in it.

However, it depends both on the major and how many years you're planning to take to complete it. A lot of students don't take any core classes in the first year - all gen. ed. requirements like English. Some majors allow for that, and some students don't mind the 5-6 year plan.

 

[jimmydean]

Some majors allow for that, and some students don't mind the 5-6 year plan.

Community Colleges are full of 5 year "2 year degree" students around here.


But JK is correct about the BCS. Look at U of O. Once a great school, now a major marketing avenue for bad Nike gear with little value left as a place of learning.

 

[TheMontashu]

I think the big problem is the high schools, not the college's. The standards are so low (the CA high school exit exam literally has 7th grade math, and kids regularly fail it) that the teachers can't make the classes as hard as they would like. I have heard this frustration from MANY of my professors. They dummed down k-12 so bad that kids aren't any where close to ready when they get to college, and the professors run the risk of loosing their jobs if they start failing literally entire classes.

Hell, even my dumb ass is sitting on a 3.2 right now, and I don't work as hard as I should for it.

 

[binary visions]

I think the big problem is the high schools, not the college's. The standards are so low (the CA high school exit exam literally has 7th grade math, and kids regularly fail it) that the teachers can't make the classes as hard as they would like. I have heard this frustration from MANY of my professors. They dummed down k-12 so bad that kids aren't any where close to ready when they get to college, and the professors run the risk of loosing their jobs if they start failing literally entire classes.

Hell, even my dumb ass is sitting on a 3.2 right now, and I don't work as hard as I should for it.

Please tell me that you're posting in this thread ironically.

 

[moff_quigley]

Please tell me that you're posting in this thread ironically.

Ironic post is ironic.

 

[TheMontashu]

Please tell me that you're posting in this thread ironically.

Totally serious, and I came out of high school with allot more knowledge than my classmates, just a serious issue with spelling and grammar. I didn't actually learn to read till I was 9. That being said, I could probably teach a U.S. history class, and could probably (unless you're in some sort of science field) make you feel retarded in about 10 minutes going through my calc book.

 

[stoney]

Please tell me that you're posting in this thread ironically.

While he is technically right, my head does hurt because of it.

 

[stoney]

Totally serious, and I came out of high school with allot more knowledge than my classmates, just a serious issue with spelling and grammar. I didn't actually learn to read till I was 9. That being said, I could probably teach a U.S. history class, and could probably (unless you're in some sort of science field) make you feel retarded in about 10 minutes going through my calc book.

Okay, nevermind. It looks like it was an 'Oldschool' debate moment by Mooshu.

 

[kidwoo]

Where the fvck did you guys go to college?

I busted my ass in school and the kids in my classes that didn't, failed out.

Of course studying chemistry and engineering may have had something to do with that but jeesh..... I don't think that's a valid generalization on all students.


edit: nevermind.....missed this page

 

[binary visions]

Of course studying chemistry and engineering may have had something to do with that but jeesh..... I don't think that's a valid generalization on all students.

You must have taken some general courses... you telling me you didn't have the retard in the corner who was taking a writing course but thought that "allot" was a word to describe "many"?

 

[$tinkle]

I think the big problem is the high schools, not the college's. The standards are so low (the CA high school exit exam literally has 7th grade math, and kids regularly fail it) that the teachers can't make the classes as hard as they would like. I have heard this frustration from MANY of my professors. They dummed down k-12 so bad that kids aren't any where close to ready when they get to college, and the professors run the risk of loosing their jobs if they start failing literally entire classes.

Hell, even my dumb ass is sitting on a 3.2 right now, and I don't work as hard as I should for it.

this made my week.

"literally."

 

[$tinkle]

That being said

thx, i read w/ my lips together

I could probably teach a U.S. history class, and could probably (unless you're in some sort of science field) make you feel retarded in about 10 minutes going through my calc book.

good point. i do feel quite a bit "dummer" already!

oh, do you mean that i would "literally" go through your calc book? (rhetorical butler question)

 

[mattmatt86]

The majority of 19 year olds are going to do exactly what is necessary to not fail. Of course you're going to drink all night, skip class and play Mario Kart instead of studying if you can still get a C in the class that way.

I have a diploma in my desk that proves your theory 100% correct.

 

[Westy]

I work with a couple of engineers who teach at the local community college. The stories they tell are depressing, large numbers of students failing open book unit conversion tests.

Looking back at my college kind of pisses me off. It was a highly ranked private school. The teaching wasn't especially good and the facilities kind of sucked. They were well regarded pretty much because they just didn't let lazy or stupid students slide through the system. My program had a 60% drop out rate. We didn't pay high tuition because we were being given anything special, we were just filling the financial gaps left by the kids who got kicked out.

 

[Toshi]

i imagine the ever-learning toshi may have a strong opinion on this topic. i also imagine mmike will accuse him of being related to this mom, for academic reasons, of course

My Japanese mother was totally a "Chinese mother" and I'm thankful for it. Young kids simply don't have the willpower to do things that aren't immediately rewarding, such as practicing an instrument or studying something seriously, and doing those things is not mutually exclusive with having a social life or learning how to interact with other kids as Brooks' NYT editorial this week would imply.

Other versions of the sound-bite article on college learning have slightly more info: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2013970569_collegelearning19.html

Students who majored in the traditional liberal arts — including the social sciences, humanities, natural sciences and mathematics — showed significantly greater gains over time than other students in critical thinking, complex reasoning and writing skills.

Students majoring in business, education, social work and communications showed the least gains in learning.

Yup. The stereotypes apparently were true. Even at dear old Hahvahd it seemed as if the non-science majors lent themselves well to a life of Thursday through Tuesday partying.

 

[JRogers]

Yup. The stereotypes apparently were true. Even at dear old Hahvahd it seemed as if the non-science majors lent themselves well to a life of Thursday through Tuesday partying.

Yeah, but the article is saying that people in liberal arts show sizable gains in critical thinking skills- not science majors. Though, I would agree that most of my science major friends in college did work harder and spend more time studying than most of my other friends. It is easier to skate by in most non-science majors. Even at the PhD level you can sometimes get by surprisingly little work (even though you usually don't get there at any place worthwhile without putting in a lot of work).

 

[$tinkle]

Yeah, but the article is saying that people in liberal arts show sizable gains in critical thinking skills- not science majors.

this too is unsurprising: there's much more unrealized potential w/ liberal arts types.

not saying they're dullards, just many more who've yet to awaken

 

[ohio]

Every other study shows that the American college and university system is the best in the world. Just because most spoiled American kids don't learn much in their first 2 college years doesn't actually say that much about the quality of education. It says allot* about the quality of the students.



edit: * that's for you, BV

 

[binary visions]

Every other study shows that the American college and university system is the best in the world. Just because most spoiled American kids don't learn much in their first 2 college years doesn't actually say that much about the quality of education. It says allot* about the quality of the students.

Sure, I completely agree. The lack of learning by some doesn't mean that those who do study don't have a lot of education at their fingertips.

I just mean that the standards for passing are so ridiculously low in many cases/many majors, it does nothing to help encourage the unmotivated student to actually learn.

Seems like a lot of these students are, in the end, there to learn and to complete their education. They party all week and skip class because they can. If they couldn't, they wouldn't, and a better education would follow.

Not that people shouldn't party in college - they should. Just fit it in with the academics.

 

[Toshi]

Every other study shows that the American college and university system is the best in the world. Just because most spoiled American kids don't learn much in their first 2 college years doesn't actually say that much about the quality of education. It says allot* about the quality of the students.



edit: * that's for you, BV

What are these studies, and do they include the entirety of the educational system? There are good schools out there and there are crap ones (for-profit ones come to mind immediately…).

 

[jonKranked]

Sure, I completely agree. The lack of learning by some doesn't mean that those who do study don't have a lot of education at their fingertips.

I just mean that the standards for passing are so ridiculously low in many cases/many majors, it does nothing to help encourage the unmotivated student to actually learn.

I think part of the problem is that some students aren't learning based on their studies, they're learning how to game the system - pass tests, get extra credit, etc (as opposed the actual content)

 

[stoney]

I think part of the problem is that some students aren't learning based on their studies, they're learning how to game the system - pass tests, get extra credit, etc (as opposed the actual content)

The concept of extra credit is ludicrious. If someone works harder than the rest of the class, that's called competition. If you can't compete, get out of the way of those who want to.

 

[binary visions]

I think part of the problem is that some students aren't learning based on their studies, they're learning how to game the system - pass tests, get extra credit, etc (as opposed the actual content)

Agreed, that's what I meant by having all of these avenues to pass the course.

A few difficult and rigorously graded papers/tests pretty much forces you to learn at least some subject matter, even if it gets forgotten.

So many teachers now offer extra credit, a hundred piddly projects, fifty small, easy quizzes to supplement the big tests... like it's doing all the kids a favor that they can fail the final and fail to write a coherent paper, but still get a C by passing their side projects that contribute little to learning.

 

[kidwoo]

You must have taken some general courses... you telling me you didn't have the retard in the corner who was taking a writing course but thought that "allot" was a word to describe "many"?

I guess it was pretty different with those elective clases I took like Logic and macro/microeconomics, and even some neurology courses, that if you did exactly what the profs told you to you'd do perfectly. I sort of forget that some people get degrees having taken nothing BUT those kinds of classes.

I don't know man.......I had engineering classes that were one single design project that the instructor hadn't even solved yet, only to find out after failing everyone that it was literally unsolvable with the allowable components he'd given. I had fun outside of classes but college was stress for me and everyone else taking the same major courses.


So mostly this........

Every other study shows that the American college and university system is the best in the world. Just because most spoiled American kids don't learn much in their first 2 college years doesn't actually say that much about the quality of education. It says allot* about the quality of the students.

Toshi: Does anyone really even consider phoenix university a school?