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And Devinci Enters the World of Carbon DH

bdamschen

Turbo Monkey
Nov 28, 2005
3,377
156
Spreckels, CA
only the 'seatstay' is carbon
I lol'd a little. One company goes carbon front triangle first and claims it's not worth it to go carbon out back (except on their WC riders) while another goes JUST carbon out back. These dudes just need to commit and go full retard!.... ...errr carbon!
 

dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,922
10
Your face.
Part of me wonders how much of a benefit all this carbon stuff really is, and how much of it is being done because cyclists are muppets and will buy anything if its marketed properly.

Carbon obviously has its benefits, but its got some hefty drawbacks too. I wonder if its just a perceived evolution, rather than actual, ya know?


This isn't a troll post btw, just a "hmmmm" sort of thing.
 

xy9ine

Turbo Monkey
Mar 22, 2004
2,940
353
vancouver eastside
Part of me wonders how much of a benefit all this carbon stuff really is, and how much of it is being done because cyclists are muppets and will buy anything if its marketed properly.

Carbon obviously has its benefits, but its got some hefty drawbacks too. I wonder if its just a perceived evolution, rather than actual, ya know?


This isn't a troll post btw, just a "hmmmm" sort of thing.
of course this is going to turn into another carbon vs aluminum endless argument, but done right, it appears carbon can be lighter, stiffer, stronger, more impact resistant, and easier to manipulate into complex forms than aluminum, at the expense of, well, greater expense. and the price differential between chinese carbon and aluminum (especially domestically produced) is getting smaller, so the carbon trend seems inevitable.
 

Inclag

Turbo Monkey
Sep 9, 2001
2,750
439
MA
Part of me wonders how much of a benefit all this carbon stuff really is, and how much of it is being done because cyclists are muppets and will buy anything if its marketed properly.

Carbon obviously has its benefits, but its got some hefty drawbacks too. I wonder if its just a perceived evolution, rather than actual, ya know?


This isn't a troll post btw, just a "hmmmm" sort of thing.
It's called China.

Hop on Alibaba Express and take a look at how anyone with a little savings or a small business loan can start importing quality carbon frames for cheap and start their own "brand". For those that don't want to by pallets/containers worth of bikes, you can still get a single frame marked up with the overseas shipping for $350.

Carbon is the next big thing because it is getting cheap to produce. That and the perceived benefits allow prices to be driven up which result in a better profit margin.
 

OGRipper

back alley ripper
Feb 3, 2004
10,647
1,116
NORCAL is the hizzle
What really matters to me is that the latest generation of carbon bikes generally ride great and have proven plenty durable in the real world.

It's true that the bike companies need cool stuff to sell - but isn't that just a cynical way of saying that the market drives innovation?

I don't see the problem. Crap will be exposed as such and we all get rad stuff to ride.
 

no skid marks

Monkey
Jan 15, 2006
2,511
29
ACT Australia
I don't see the problem. Crap will be exposed as such and we all get rad stuff to ride.
Crap may get exposed, but then they just bring out the next model, and the crap becomes irrelevant, as you're blinded by the next marketing campaign, and the possibilities they may have made the best bike for you..
Carbon is the best tool for the job of making bike frames. It can have whatever character desired by the manufacturer. The problem as with all materials used is that the manufacturer might not have the knowledge to use carbon well, or the right motives or inspiration.
A good aluminum or steel frame will always be better than a bad carbon one.
Carbon is still pretty much non recyclable.
 

dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,922
10
Your face.
See, its that whole "proven in the real world" statement that gets me. Not going to name them, but one very popular carbon maker out here has seen a LOT of failures. Lots more than I knew about until talking to dealers.

This is AGAIn not a troll, just an honest idea, but maybe bike companies are pushing carbon because they are getting cheaper to make, but pull a higher sale value? Carbon seems like an awesome material for building bikes, but maybe not bikes that see hard impacts like DH/ FR and even some all mountain setups? I dunno, just wondering if its a case of pushing it because it will sell, rather than an actual ideal solution, ya know?
 

xy9ine

Turbo Monkey
Mar 22, 2004
2,940
353
vancouver eastside
^why not name names? granted, the sample size is still relatively small, but the fact I've not seen any failures from any of the longer travel carbon bike manufacturers as of yet would suggest pretty reasonable durability. Ive yet to see any indicators otherwise. the old lahar seems to be unkillable after several seasons of abuse; based on what I've seen id rather spend my $$ on carbon than aluminum
on a future big bike purchase.
 
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dropmachine

Turbo Monkey
Sep 7, 2001
2,922
10
Your face.
Not naming names to avoid causing crap. :P

Its weird though. Seems like some are lasting, some aren't. I haven't heard of a broken GT for example, but then again, I don't hear much about GT where I am either. And definitely nothing about Lahar :D

*note, not citing GT for any other reason other than an example. :D
 

xy9ine

Turbo Monkey
Mar 22, 2004
2,940
353
vancouver eastside
ibis perhaps? i've heard of a couple failures, but nothing systemic / statistically significant.

regardless, said application is still in it's infancy, so we'll undoubtably see a few miss-steps along the way.
 

p-spec

Turbo Monkey
May 2, 2004
1,278
1
quebec
It's called China.

Hop on Alibaba Express and take a look at how anyone with a little savings or a small business loan can start importing quality carbon frames for cheap and start their own "brand". For those that don't want to by pallets/containers worth of bikes, you can still get a single frame marked up with the overseas shipping for $350.

Carbon is the next big thing because it is getting cheap to produce. That and the perceived benefits allow prices to be driven up which result in a better profit margin.
omg.

someone who finally understands.
 

Ian Collins

Turbo Monkey
Oct 4, 2001
1,428
0
Pacific Beach, San Diego, CA
It's called China.

Hop on Alibaba Express and take a look at how anyone with a little savings or a small business loan can start importing quality carbon frames for cheap and start their own "brand". For those that don't want to by pallets/containers worth of bikes, you can still get a single frame marked up with the overseas shipping for $350.

Carbon is the next big thing because it is getting cheap to produce. That and the perceived benefits allow prices to be driven up which result in a better profit margin.
nailed it man....
 

Dogboy

Turbo Monkey
Apr 12, 2004
3,208
581
Durham, NC
Not going to name them, but one very popular carbon maker out here has seen a LOT of failures. Lots more than I knew about until talking to dealers.
I'm with xy9ine. Name them. I'm going on a year and a half beating the sh!t out of a Santa Cruz carbon frame and have absolutely no problem saying it is at least, and probably far more durable than any aluminum bike I have owned. It's also the only bike I have refused to part with...
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
See, its that whole "proven in the real world" statement that gets me. Not going to name them, but one very popular carbon maker out here has seen a LOT of failures. Lots more than I knew about until talking to dealers.

This is AGAIn not a troll, just an honest idea, but maybe bike companies are pushing carbon because they are getting cheaper to make, but pull a higher sale value? Carbon seems like an awesome material for building bikes, but maybe not bikes that see hard impacts like DH/ FR and even some all mountain setups? I dunno, just wondering if its a case of pushing it because it will sell, rather than an actual ideal solution, ya know?

Valid question.

CF (if done right) has substantial benefits over aluminum. Think about all the environments and applications where it's used over other materials:

F1 uses it for their crash tubs because it is exceptionally stronger than using aluminum (weight to weight comparison), and they are certainly not using materials for perceived gains, but rather actual tested gains. They pretty much use it on the entire car from the tub to strut mounts and other bits. All chosen because they believe it’s the right material. The g-force loading on a rear strut mount is going to be pretty high.....

Aerospace is my ball game, and CF and composites are seeing a huge increase in use. Fighter jets use the stuff everywhere and it’s not just for weight savings (in some instances a part may end up as heavy), but also strength and longevity. Nothing done in my field is done because it’s marketable. It’s done because it’s accurate.

Here’s a wing bend strength test done on the new Boeing 787 composite wing. The test was taken 50% past the design limit without a structural failure. If watching this test doesn’t put anyone at ease about composites, then nothing will.

http://787flighttest.com/hanger/wp-content/plugins/flash-video-player/mediaplayer/player.swf?streamer=rtmp://cp81820.edgefcs.net/ondemand/tpn/firstflight/&file=TestLog4.flv


With regards to failures, that’s not the fault of the material, but rather design (poor designs done with aluminum too) and process (aluminum can see process failures too: bad welds, incorrect heat treatment, porosity in castings and extrusions, etc).


About price, well that's certainly not my ball game, but I do believe that pricing should come down if more people do it.


Hope that answers some questions.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,031
5,921
borcester rhymes
seems like "keeping up with the joneses" to me. Cracknfevil has their carbon, trek has their carbon, SC actually has their carbon, now everybody and their mother wants to keep up.

I wonder if this will vacate the market for cheap, strong, steel or aluminum frames for normal people who don't want to or can't afford carbon frames. I hope they all cost a fortune- then the little, small, smart guys will start releasing frames at half the price, albeit at a reduced profit, and create their own niche in the market. Who really needs a $4000 DH bike?
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot
Why does every thread involving carbon fiber+DH bikes bring out the ludites?
ftfy.

It's a better material than aluminum for bikes and if you're smart you will embrace better things. Engineers are now able to better work with it due to newish process developments. It's here. Deal with it or buy a cheaper aluminum bike.

Or, should Lockheed have made this out of carbon steel, coton, twine and wood, and dh bikes still be made from 4130?



This plane sees more loading and stress than any of your DH bikes ever will.
 
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Pslide

Turbo Monkey
Or, should Lockheed have made this out of carbon steel, coton, twine and wood, and dh bikes still be made from 4130?
Oy! What's wrong with 4130?

The market is missing a simple, elegant, durable, well designed and cheap DH bike made from 4130. And it wouldn't need to be that heavy with today's grades of steel. I have no idea why no one has capitalized on this.

BTW, you've got some cheap old aluminum thing in your avatar. ;)
 

atrokz

Turbo Monkey
Mar 14, 2002
1,552
77
teedotohdot

marshalolson

Turbo Monkey
May 25, 2006
1,770
519
F1 uses it for their crash tubs because it is exceptionally stronger than using aluminum (weight to weight comparison), and they are certainly not using materials for perceived gains, but rather actual tested gains. They pretty much use it on the entire car from the tub to strut mounts and other bits. All chosen because they believe it’s the right material. The g-force loading on a rear strut mount is going to be pretty high.....

Aerospace is my ball game, and CF and composites are seeing a huge increase in use. Fighter jets use the stuff everywhere and it’s not just for weight savings (in some instances a part may end up as heavy), but also strength and longevity. Nothing done in my field is done because it’s marketable. It’s done because it’s accurate.
to the best of my knowledge, no DH/trail bike manufacturer is using aerospace pre-preg like these 2 examples. they are using either wet layup or thermoplatsic injection molding. going to pre-preg will be the TRUE landmark in DH bike construction, but get prepared for $10k+ frames with that stuff.
 
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