Another DH Pro Suspended

MMcG · Jan 17, 2005

that action deserves a :stosh:

and a :nuts: for NORBA.

Very lame.

Curb Hucker · Jan 17, 2005

pathetic

Jeremy R · Jan 17, 2005

Crack, Heroin, Crystal Meth, and Trimspa Baby!

-BB- · Jan 17, 2005

dhtahoe said:
Well looks like NORBA has once again shot another round into it's already wounded foot. It seems that DH pro Chelsea Redwood has been suspended for two years for a banned substance used in most common OTC diet pills. Wow NORBA can't seem to catch any XC riders on EPO because they are always one step ahead or DH riders for roids because they are only useing in the off-season and does not show in tests months later, but has busted three DH riders for pot and diet pills. Redwood is 34 years old, one hell of a cool chick (HOT!) and only races for fun. Yeah she needs to be tested... A single mom, 34, finishes out of the top 5 in pro, busted for taking a diet pill!!!
Call child protective services... she's a bad model for her child!!!
Just one more person I will miss seeing this year at the races. What's that like 14 NORBA pro woman now??? HUGE numbers!!! Less than 10 is you take out the euro women.

Is this the Chelsea that lives in BigBear?

Fury · Jan 17, 2005

Jeremy R said:
Crack, Heroin, Crystal Meth, and Trimspa Baby!

ROFL!!

The Kadvang · Jan 17, 2005

weak sauce

HRDTLBRO · Jan 17, 2005

Wacktacular...Norba sucks. Whatever happened to the ideas being thrown around for a non-Norba, DH only organization?

SuspectDevice · Jan 17, 2005

You know, it sucks that these folks are getting suspended and all, but it is up to the athelete to know what they are putting into their body. The banned substance list is available from USADA and WADA. Getting busted for diet pills is truly a bummer, but a proffesional athelete should be just that, professional.

Usacycling does no doping education on their end. IMO they should be providing a copy of the WADA's prohibited list and test standards to any rider that takes out an international-level license. Furthermore the USOC sponsored USADA is facing a maelstrom of criticism from other regulatory agencies right now due tothe unearthing of nearly 90 positive coverups, Including atheletes as notable as Carl Lewis and several "powerful professional cyclists". When we examine this "nailing" of Dhers in this context we can begin to understand what is going on here. A program of systematic coverups and misinformation.

http://www.wada-ama.org/en/dynamic.ch2?pageCategory_id=47

Copies of the 2005 prohibited list and testing standards are available at the above link.
I encourage all you pro's and semi-pros out there to dowload an read a copy. If the jargon is above your head give a copy to your coach and doctor so they can make sure you stay within the framework. I'm not advocating doping here, or persecuting people for petty offenses, but promoting education.

If any of you guys have any questions about the contents of a product you are using you can contact me at education@fast-times-training.com and I'll research to the best of my ability whether or not you are taking something that could lead to a positive test. The more clean riders we can get out there, the harder it's going to be for USADA, the USOC and the IOC to cover-up and protect the "Real" dopers out there whose performances line the pockets of those organisations through TV contracts and endorsement deals.

Take 'em down!

1soulrider · Jan 17, 2005

Yes, this is the Chelsea that lives in Big Bear. I heard about this a while back, really sucks for her. She's on this forum sometimes as 'ButHerFly'. Chelsea, sorry this happened we'll miss you at the races. There are too few female dhers as it is.

MMike · Jan 17, 2005

Out of curiosity, why was she taking diet pills?

bizutch · Jan 17, 2005

gee, Pantani, Hamilton, Bonds, Redwood.....all my heroes are falling by the wayside.....o wait, I don't have any heroes. :rolleyes:

SuspectDevice · Jan 17, 2005

bizutch said:
gee, Pantani, Hamilton, Bonds, Redwood.....all my heroes are falling by the wayside.....o wait, I don't have any heroes.

Redwood? wth is that?

Enginerd A2 · Jan 17, 2005

bizutch said:
gee, Pantani, Hamilton, Bonds, Redwood.....all my heroes are falling by the wayside.....o wait, I don't have any heroes.

Hamilton as in Tyler Hamilton? Did he get busted? As for illegal diet pill stimulant levels, I have read that there is a level of caffeine that is in violation of anti-doping rules. So, if you drink enough coffee to attain this level, pull yourself away from the urinal for long enough to race, and be the subject of a random screening, you, too, can be disqualified just like the pros!

Acadian · Jan 17, 2005

KonaJosh said:
Hamilton as in Tyler Hamilton? Did he get busted?

one of many...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/sep04/sep22news3

SuspectDevice · Jan 17, 2005

KonaJosh said:
Hamilton as in Tyler Hamilton? Did he get busted? As for illegal diet pill stimulant levels, I have read that there is a level of caffeine that is in violation of anti-doping rules. So, if you drink enough coffee to attain this level, pull yourself away from the urinal for long enough to race, and be the subject of a random screening, you, too, can be disqualified just like the pros!

Hamilton got busted big time for exogenous rbc transfusion. (Using other people's red blood cells to improve oxygen carrying capacity)

Caffeine is no longer on the banned list. The former prohibited levels were 1000 mcg/ml, equivalent to ~22 cups of average coffee. Ergogenic effects have been demonstrated at as low as 75 mcg/ml, so they decided to dump the prohibition. This makes sense in light of the health benefits of caffeine and the very high dosage necessary for toxicity.

Motionboy2 · Jan 17, 2005

Ok, I am going to play devils advocate here. Please don't take offense as I just want to see what your thoughts are.

If you are a Pro level DHer and this is something you are passionate about and you intend on making this as much of your living as it is possible to do.. Why wouldn't you pay attention to the rules so as not to get ejected? If you are committed enough to dedicate a good portion of your life to training and racing, looking for sponsors and dedicating your time to riding why not read up and follow the restrictions that are put in front of you?
I know that some of the rules are dumb and the substances that are included are not reasonable at times, but they do spell out the rules right?

Sorry for the questions, but at times I feel like I have a decent perception of both sides of the issue and wanted to see what others thought about this argument.

Transcend · Jan 17, 2005

I agree 100% with Mickey and Josh. If you wanna be pro, you need to pay attention to what you are putting into your body. Plain and simple.

biggins · Jan 17, 2005

rulez iz rulez dawg

Smelly · Jan 17, 2005

dhtahoe said:
Well looks like NORBA has once again shot another round into it's already wounded foot.

looks more like another "pro" rider wasn't able to follow NORBA rules...
it's a shame for sure, but as others have said, if you're a professional athlete, you have to abide by the rules. plain and simple. you can't not follow a rule just because you think it's silly, and you need to be more judicious than the average rider of what you put into your body.

Enginerd A2 · Jan 17, 2005

SuspectDevice said:
Hamilton got busted big time for exogenous rbc transfusion. (Using other people's red blood cells to improve oxygen carrying capacity)

Caffeine is no longer on the banned list. The former prohibited levels were 1000 mcg/ml, equivalent to ~22 cups of average coffee. Ergogenic effects have been demonstrated at as low as 75 mcg/ml, so they decided to dump the prohibition. This makes sense in light of the health benefits of caffeine and the very high dosage necessary for toxicity.

If caffeine is no longer banned, what is the diet pill ingredient in question that caused Ms. Redwood's suspension? I thought most diet pills were packed with natural caffeine sources i.e. guarana, ginseng, and the like. Ephredine has been outlawed for over-the-counter high dose diet pills, hasn't it?

heikkihall · Jan 17, 2005

KonaJosh said:
If caffeine is no longer banned, what is the diet pill ingredient in question that caused Ms. Redwood's suspension? I thought most diet pills were packed with natural caffeine sources i.e. guarana, ginseng, and the like. Ephredine has been outlawed for over-the-counter high dose diet pills, hasn't it?

Yea but only as of last spring. There is still a chance that someone could have some that they bought before that date and had not used it. I see both sides of the situation and it pretty much sucks. NORBA should do a better job of educating their pros as to what will make them get penalized.

trailhacker · Jan 17, 2005

Motionboy2 said:
If you are a Pro level DHer and this is something you are passionate about and you intend on making this as much of your living as it is possible to do.. Why wouldn't you pay attention to the rules so as not to get ejected?

What if you are a "PRO" but this isn't something your trying to make a living or even some money on?
What if your some local yokel that happens to fast as all get out?
I know locally and I'm sure in every region there are locals that will only go to a national if its in the neihborhood and won't ever go to a world cup that do this for "FUN". They don't train, or hope for any kind of titles, they just come to hang with like people and do this for because its a fun thing to do. Sure wouldn't seem right if they got 50th out of 55, then were to get tested and were positive for some weed or what-not that they couldn't even race locally for two years?
I suppose I could see testing top-10 men, maybe top-10 women, but for the 40-60th place riders, come on.....

Transcend · Jan 17, 2005

trailhacker said:
What if you are a "PRO" but this isn't something your trying to make a living or even some money on?
What if your some local yokel that happens to fast as all get out?
.

The it is still your responsibility to watch what you ingest, you KNOW the rules. Plain and simple. If you are just doing it for fun, then be aware that racing in that category requires some tradeoffs, and be willing to accept the consequences.

If you drive a car drunk, be willing to accept that doing so may put you in jail and make you lose your license. It is a conscious decision the rider has to make.

Worst case, go to semi pro. You don't get tested usually at local events, so it is a moot point. Don't race a national or world cup, and you wont get caught.

binary visions · Jan 17, 2005

Transcend said:
If you are just doing it for fun, then be aware that racing in that category requires some tradeoffs, and be willing to accept the consequences.

Bingo.

Of course it sucks that she got busted for something that was probably not performance enhancing. However, EVERYONE who races at a pro level, or races in WC/National events, should be aware of what they are doing and act accordingly.

Ignorance is no excuse: inform yourself.

"Uhh, sorry officer, I wasn't aware that passing on a double yellow line was illegal."

Getting behind the wheel of a car, or racing in a national event, you are participating in an activity that has certain rules, and consequences if those rules are broken. Not only is ignorance a bad excuse, it's probably the worst excuse: so, you couldn't be bothered to just ask someone or do a Google search? It's not like you have to write a frickin' thesis on the subject...

SuspectDevice · Jan 17, 2005

To further confuse things, Ephedrine is no longer on the "banned" substance list at WADA but is in fact now regulated to concentrations below 10mcg/ml. Ephedrine in the form of pseudoephedrine (decongestant) has definetly nailed more than one DH racer over the history of the sport. Ephedrine, Psuedoephedrine, and ephedra are all chemically quite close, the Bush administration and the EU have banned the importation and sale only of Ephedra. Various other more regional regulatory bodies have curtailed the availabilty of pseudoephedrine, as it is an important precursor in the production of methylamphetamine, a title 1 prohibited substance.

I don't want to be speculative here, but it's likely the substance in question is either phentermine ( a stimulant) or a precursor to some diuretic compound.

In additon, because of the lengthy appeal process she could have tested positive for caffeine 11 months ago when it was still on the banned substance list, and USADA and USAC could have taken their sweet ass time in notifying and sanctioning the rider. If she really cared a Caffeine positive suspension would likely be overturned if she brought it before CAS.

Honestly though, through better education this probally wouldn't have happened.

As to the previous poster's argument that "recreational pros" shouldn't have to be subjected to testing, maybe they should move back down to expert if they don't want to play by the rules? A complete and random testing regime is the only way we can attempt to clean up the sport.

dante · Jan 17, 2005

$10 says she got busted for Ephedrine, which is now not allowed to be sold in the US. this kind of sucks, but I agree with NORBAs not allowing of drugs like Ephedrine which can possibly give one rider an edge over another. i have NO clue what the circumstances were, such as how long that will stay in your system, and whether it would show up that she was taking one pill a day for exercise/weight control during her training or she took 5 pills right before the race for extra energy. just think of what would happen if Ephedrine was legal, and taking it right before the race gave you an edge? then everyone would have to be sitting at the top taking Stacker2 and washing it down with red bull.

I'm more pissed that NORBA does something like ban pot when it hasn't been shown to be a performance-enhancing drug. it's a political decision, and innocent people suffer. :mumble:

Motionboy2 · Jan 17, 2005

Yeah, pro has the added responsibility of following extra rules. It would be unlikely that if that person was merely racing local races and didn't race national or world cup races that they would have a problem. But that category still has rules that are more enforced than other categories.
Biking is such a small sport at times. When you are involved with it everything seems so familiar, but if we want it to be a legit sport then we have to treat it as a legit sport. It isn't Norba's fault that there are rules...there have to be rules. It may be their fault that they do not spell out the rules enough or clarify what is and what is not a banned substance, but if that is the case then someone should address norba.

I think sometimes it is overlooked by some of the pros that they ARE role models to kids, they ARE the progression of the sport and that they represent cycling. Because the community is small and the atmosphere is light at times it seems like the rules can be skirted because so-and-so is "my friend" or I gave him the "bro deal but in reality, a legit sport has rules and if you are found to break these pre-established rules there will be a consequence.
Now some of these rules may be dumb and if you want to talk about that it is a separate issue. This is where NORBA needs help. Nobody can sit on the sidelines here if you are passionate about this. If you feel that Norba needs to do a better job of spelling out what is and what is not banned then petition norba for a list or a notice of these things. If there are things on this list that you do not feel are performance enhancing and it is something that should be removed then request a reason for why this item is on the list and petition to have it removed.

If cycling was not plagued with banning for performance enhancing drug use then it would be looked at with more respect by the public, sponsors and the global community. This is something that we hear regularly With some communication and dedication it can be accomplished. It is sad to see local pros and national pros get knocked out because of this type of thing and it is a tough thing for those who are looking for their heros in the sport.
I pass no judgment on any of the pros that have been ejected, I just hope that NORBA and the pros will work together to educate one another on this issue.

SuspectDevice · Jan 17, 2005

dante said:
just think of what would happen if Ephedrine was legal, and taking it right before the race gave you an edge? then everyone would have to be sitting at the top taking Stacker2 and washing it down with red bull.

This actually happens ALOT. I haven't seen evidence of it in DH yet, but if you show up to any amateur road,cross or mtb race people are popping the Aspirin, caffeine, pseduphed stack everywhere you look.

This is pretty much a really grey area, kids who get away with this long enough start to wonder what else they can get away with, and before you know it they are taking some pro-hormones to mute cortisol response after training, T-precursors to further spare body fat, and maybe considering trying things that are even illegal or regulated. You can do everythig I just mentioned (~12% increase in anaerobic threshold for the ACE stack, documented recovery benefit to the other stuff) just by going into a GNC and buying all that stuff OTC. Most of these things would trigger some sort of positive (the exception being the ACE stack, but it's still doping, no doubt), but because they are readily available OTC people think that they are safe and ethical.

Once again, lack of education and lack of any real desire to clean up the sport on behalf of USAC, USADA, USOC and the IOC is slowly pulling more and more kids to the dark side.

SuspectDevice · Jan 17, 2005

wow, lots of acronyms in my posts!

OGRipper · Jan 17, 2005

We've gotten caught in this argumentative circle before - see the threads on Houseman, etc.

Bottom line for me: If you want to play, then play by the rules, even if you think the rules are stupid. If you don't like the rules, try to get 'em changed by going through the right channels. If you can't and the rules offend your principles, then don't race. But don't break the rules and complain only after you get busted. That's cheating, and it only hurts the sport.

And for sure, don't be unaware of the rules.

And anyway, some (many) substances are banned because a group of scientists determined they are harmful to the user, even if they might not appear to be directly performance-enhancing. In my opinion, diet pills fit in this category. They won't necessarily make you faster but they supress the body's natural call for nourishment and thus can be really harmful for a athlete, particularly where endurance and strength are key.

As for pot, it's illegal. Until that changes, it will be a banned substance and rightly so (IMO). Maybe some of you think a professional sports organization should implicitly condone the use of illegal drugs, but if so you are not seeing the big picture.

SuspectDevice · Jan 17, 2005

OGRipper said:
And anyway, some (many) substances are banned because a group of scientists determined they are harmful to the user, even if they might not appear to be directly performance-enhancing. In my opinion, diet pills fit in this category. They won't necessarily make you faster but they supress the body's natural call for nourishment and thus can't be really harmful for a athlete, particularly where endurance and strength are key.

QUOTE]

The thing is, lots of diet pills will make you faster, by giving you greater endurance capacity, improving your mental acuity, reducing percieved exertion and increasing your lean muscle mass. The burden of proof in this case lies with the athelete, as objective scientific testing can't sort out the reasons someone took an ergogenic substance.

That sort of artifical body augmentation may fly on "reality TV" but fundamentally it's cheating. It's unlikely that this athelete (or many atheletes who test positive) knew that she was "cheating", but that is the underpinning concept I'm working with here.

JeffD · Jan 17, 2005

Can't speak for DH applications but after racing several weekends in a row and having to be on the gate at 8:00am every Sunday, ephedrine makes a HELLUVA LOT of a difference in the first few motos of the day in BMX.

dante · Jan 17, 2005

OGRipper said:
And anyway, some (many) substances are banned because a group of scientists determined they are harmful to the user, even if they might not appear to be directly performance-enhancing. In my opinion, diet pills fit in this category. They won't necessarily make you faster but they supress the body's natural call for nourishment and thus can't be really harmful for a athlete, particularly where endurance and strength are key.

not really, chlorine bleach is bad for the body but won't show up on a banned list any time soon. there's been reports of pro sports players taking 20-25 Sudafed pills before a game. this can only be because of its performance-enhancing ability.

OGRipper said:
As for pot, it's illegal. Until that changes, it will be a banned substance and rightly so (IMO). Maybe some of you think a professional sports organization should implicitly condone the use of illegal drugs, but if so you are not seeing the big picture.

Cheating on your taxes is illegal, speeding is illegal, lying to a federal agent is illegal, but NORBA doesn't test/check for these, would you say that they're condoning that type of behavior? Can you imagine if some pro lost their medal because it turns out that the person got a speeding ticket on their way to the race?? Unless its a performance-enhancing product, why should any racing organization care about what a rider does when he/she's not racing or training??

heikkihall · Jan 17, 2005

SuspectDevice said:
because they are readily available OTC people think that they are safe and ethical.

To go along with that, many people do not understand if they are taking some kind of supplement or substance, or whatever that just because what is says on the bottle does not mean it is a totally pure with just that substance. These places that make the supplements make all kinds of stuff and they use alot of the same equipment for the same purposes so there are chances that there could be traces of a banned substance within the same bottle as a legal substance. In some cases enough of a banned substance to get you caught for cheating even if that was not your intention. If you are at this level you should also be very aware of that. Its more common than you may think.

manhattanprjkt83 · Jan 17, 2005

racing

bizutch · Jan 17, 2005

I gotta point out that I stopped reading you guys essays on page 1 and started skip reading...new subject please...

......or ...................attach some perverse photos of the Playboy Playmate extreme team snorting big bottles of ephedra just before a XTerra Challenge or sumthin...

neaky:

Sandwich · Jan 17, 2005

well, uh...why would a pro xc racer need diet pills? maybe I'm silly in the head, but I've never seen a fat pro XC racer. Hell, most XC racers in general are thin...

There isn't really any excuse, even if she is a monkey...but good luck to her anyways....

OGRipper · Jan 17, 2005

Oops I meant to say diet pills CAN be harmful...but it is interesting to know they actuall can make you faster - shows what I know about drugs and sports!

As for what Dante said:

"Cheating on your taxes is illegal, speeding is illegal, lying to a federal agent is illegal, but NORBA doesn't test/check for these, would you say that they're condoning that type of behavior? Can you imagine if some pro lost their medal because it turns out that the person got a speeding ticket on their way to the race?? Unless its a performance-enhancing product, why should any racing organization care about what a rider does when he/she's not racing or training?? "

Well come on, cheating on your taxes doesn't even arguably have anything do with health or rules that prevent what you can put in your body. When you're talking about rules that essentially make illegal what might otherwise be legal, yes, I think that allowing the use of an illegal, commonly used substance like pot might be considered implicit approval. But it doesn't matter if the rule is already there - follow it if you want to keep playing.

And substance regulation in sport is not just about performance enhancement, it's about the health of the participants. There are many riders who would tear their hearts apart for a better shot at glory, but racers dying on the track is really bad PR for the governing bodies.

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