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Another one for you cop-haters

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4988448.html?plckCurrentPage=1

July 23, 2007, 7:05PM
Houston man killed after 'pummeling' police car
Mother, activist say man's mental illness known; HPD says he was brandishing a pipe

By MIKE GLENN
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

The mother of a pipe-wielding man killed by Houston police said she pleaded with officers not to fire at her son because he had a history of mental health problems.

"I said, 'My son is schizophrenic, don't shoot him. He's bipolar,' " said a grieving Joyce Guillory on Sunday, on the front lawn of her home in the 6600 block of Foster near Yellowstone. "They didn't listen to me. They shot him anyway."

Houston police have not discussed in detail the incident Saturday night that led to the death of Steven Guillory, 39.

In a statement released Sunday evening, Houston Police Department officials said the incident "did not offer an opportunity" for sending members of the police departments' Crisis Intervention Team to the scene. The statement also said the shooting serves to "highlight the increasing need for more mental health professionals and earlier intervention prior to police involvement."

Earlier this month Houston Police Chief Harold Hurtt told the Houston Chronicle editorial board the department's dealings with the mentally ill were an issue of concern and that all cadet classes are now required to complete 40 hours of Crisis Intervention Team training.

Houston police said Guillory was shot after he refused orders to drop a metal pipe he was carrying. Police said Guillory charged at officers while holding the pipe "in a menacing manner."

On Sunday, a small, makeshift memorial marked the spot where Guillory fell to the ground, dead from at least one gunshot wound.


Police may have known him

Guillory was well-known to police as someone with serious mental health issues, said community activist Quanell X.

"This was the address of a known paranoid schizophrenic who they have dealt with in the past (and) who they have 'talked down' in the past," Quanell said.

An HPD spokesman on Sunday said he wasn't aware if officers had dealt with Guillory before, but said that would be part of the investigation into the shooting.

Quanell wanted to know why officers trained in crisis intervention were not sent.

"They knew what they were dealing with," he said.

Quanell said at least 20 minutes elapsed before the backup officers arrived at the scene.

"When they pulled up and jumped out of their cars, they didn't negotiate — they didn't try to talk the young man down," Quanell said. "There were multiple officers out here. They could have immediately requested a (Crisis Intervention) team."

Joyce Guillory said she called police after her son struck her during an argument at the home. When officers arrived, they saw him standing in the front yard, brandishing a large pipe.

He appeared agitated, police said, and began moving toward them with the pipe in his hands. Officer T.K. Richardson tried to use his Taser to subdue Guillory but was unsuccessful, police said.

The officers backed away and called for assistance as Guillory began striking an HPD patrol car, smashing out most of the windows and lights.

Local pastor Louis Jolivette lives nearby and saw portions of the violent confrontation between Guillory and the police. The first responding officers remained 15 or 20 feet away from Guillory as he attacked the car, Jolivette said.

"When the second group of policemen came around, it seems that's when things really got out of hand," said Jolivette. "We heard some shooting and I saw (Guillory) fall down in the street."


Ordered him to drop pipe

The pipe Guillory was using during the melee broke in half as the backup officers reached the scene. He threw one of the broken sections at them, then began approaching officers T.D. Jackson and R.B. Wieners.

Police said the officers ordered Guillory to drop the pipe, then fired at him. Richardson was struck by one of the officers' rounds. He was treated at an area hospital, police said.

Guillory's mother said she was able to calm her son when he became agitated in the past.

"I could have talked him back in the yard (but) they wouldn't let me get nowhere near him," she said.

The Harris County District Attorney's Office and detectives with HPD's homicide and internal affairs divisions are investigating the shooting.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
So wait, the cops shot one of their own guys?

Once again, it looks like we are dealing with a competent group of stellar professionals here...
 

MikeD

Leader and Demogogue of the Ridemonkey Satinists
Oct 26, 2001
11,737
1,820
chez moi
Another report I read said it was a leg wound, but not a direct gunshot...possibly a ricochet or bullet/casing fragment.

Sometimes crazy stuff happens when you're being charged by a psycho with a concrete-encrusted metal pole...maybe the firing officer was also trying to keep from being killed with a blow from that thing, and made a horrible error shooting one of his own guys while trying not to be killed...maybe a shot passed through the subject and split up when it hit something on the other side, and the splashback hit the cop...maybe the officer was completely ****ed up and just shot another cop. Who knows?
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
The man was brandishing a heavy weapon, and the police first attempted to use a taser before shooting him.

I read these kinds of stories, particularily in the NY press. I think it is a tragedy but not the cops fault.
 

BMXman

I wish I was Canadian
Sep 8, 2001
13,827
0
Victoria, BC
that's the one problem I have with the current police procedures...they could have easily shot him without killing him....maybe on day "shoot to kill" will be revisited...D
 

syadasti

i heart mac
Apr 15, 2002
12,690
290
VT
that's the one problem I have with the current police procedures...they could have easily shot him without killing him....maybe on day "shoot to kill" will be revisited...D
The military has lots of money invested in less than lethal weapons research and development.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
eff da po-lease.

This was Houston after all. What do you expect?
i expect them to send this 2 year old slime called "katrina leaches" back to the swamp. this would never happen on p.e.i.
 

Frorider1

Monkey
Apr 28, 2006
241
0
I dont get why this is so wrong? They tried to taser him, that did not work. Then the guy charged them, what were they supposed to do, let him hit them with a pipe?

Hes dead, one less person to have to worry about killing someone else with a pipe becuase hes mentally handycaped.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
I dont get why this is so wrong? They tried to taser him, that did not work. Then the guy charged them, what were they supposed to do, let him hit them with a pipe?

Hes dead, one less person to have to worry about killing someone else with a pipe becuase hes mentally handycaped.
you need to read the article a little closer. the "community activist" is Quanell X. from there, it should be readily apparent why this crime of enforcing the law & applying a continuum of force is wrong.

call me racist, but i bet 4 rm pilsners the cops were white.
 

sanjuro

Tube Smuggler
Sep 13, 2004
17,373
0
SF
N.Y. senator drops 'shoot-to-wound' bill
ALBANY, N.Y., Feb. 28 (UPI) -- A New York state legislator who is also a candidate for lieutenant governor has withdrawn a bill that would limit police use of deadly force.

Democratic state Sen. David Paterson told the Daily News that he changed his mind about his "shoot to wound" bill after discussing the issue with the head of the state Association of Chiefs of Police.

The proposal was inspired by the death of Amadou Diallo, an unarmed African immigrant who died in a hail of police gunfire. Diallo, challenged by officers who thought he resembled a suspected racist, was trying to pull out his wallet to show his identification. The four officers involved were acquitted of all charges.

"I wanted to try to ensure that such a tragedy would never happen again," Paterson told the News. "While that is still my goal, I realize on reflection that this bill was not the best way to pursue it."
I think Shoot-to-Wound policies do not exist.
 

Frorider1

Monkey
Apr 28, 2006
241
0
you need to read the article a little closer. the "community activist" is Quanell X. from there, it should be readily apparent why this crime of enforcing the law & applying a continuum of force is wrong.

call me racist, but i bet 4 rm pilsners the cops were white.

They probably were, but isnt that the case in all the "tragic shooting" incidents. And always they say the cops were racist and shot the man because of that. I call bulsh*t on that, whatever the mother can sew houston for she probably will, and if that meansplaying that card then she will. I think thats the case with all the trails where they say the cops were racists, the "victims" just want more money.


And please Quanell X, wtf is that all about?
 

manimal

Ociffer Tackleberry
Feb 27, 2002
7,213
22
Blindly running into cactus
that's the one problem I have with the current police procedures...they could have easily shot him without killing him....maybe on day "shoot to kill" will be revisited...D
wrong. period.

there is no such thing as "shoot to wound". you aim for the leg and oops..hit an artery and he bleeds out. you aim for the shoulder and oops...perhaps the EXTREME amount of adrenaline pumping through your body makes you a bit shaky and you accidentally jerk a little bit on the trigger and take the dudes head off. sorry man, it's not like the movies.
and it's not "shoot to kill", you will find no such phrase in ANY police training in this country. it's worded via the supreme court as "shoot to stop the threat."


this cop was completely ok in what he did. the fact that "the police" knew this guy to be a mental patient doesn't change the fact that the officers life was in danger. there are several schizo's that i deal w/ regularly that i know i'll have to shoot if i come across them when they're not on their meds and have a weapon; they call them mental patients for a reason. what was he to do, sit down and talk it over on the couch? make the dude take his meds? or...perhaps, the cop was scared for his life and shot the crazy-ass to keep from getting bludgeoned by a big metal pipe.
 
L

luelling

Guest
The proposal was inspired by the death of Amadou Diallo, an unarmed African immigrant who died in a hail of police gunfire. Diallo, challenged by officers who thought he resembled a suspected racist, was trying to pull out his wallet to show his identification. The four officers involved were acquitted of all charges.
Geez, they didn't even go to the effort to plant a gun....how lazy
 

fluff

Monkey Turbo
Sep 8, 2001
5,673
2
Feeling the lag
wrong. period.

there is no such thing as "shoot to wound". you aim for the leg and oops..hit an artery and he bleeds out. you aim for the shoulder and oops...perhaps the EXTREME amount of adrenaline pumping through your body makes you a bit shaky and you accidentally jerk a little bit on the trigger and take the dudes head off. sorry man, it's not like the movies.
and it's not "shoot to kill", you will find no such phrase in ANY police training in this country. it's worded via the supreme court as "shoot to stop the threat."


this cop was completely ok in what he did. the fact that "the police" knew this guy to be a mental patient doesn't change the fact that the officers life was in danger. there are several schizo's that i deal w/ regularly that i know i'll have to shoot if i come across them when they're not on their meds and have a weapon; they call them mental patients for a reason. what was he to do, sit down and talk it over on the couch? make the dude take his meds? or...perhaps, the cop was scared for his life and shot the crazy-ass to keep from getting bludgeoned by a big metal pipe.
Pretty much says it all. The whole situation was tragic, but you can hardly blame the cops involved. If you don't want your police shooting dangerous people then don't give them guns, but that's pretty much out of the question in a society that is so fond of firearms.

And "shooting to wound" is gonna kill plenty of people as manimal says.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
So multiple officers, with batons, tasers, mace, and stun guns needed to shoot a guy with a pipe even after they knew his history and refused to take advantage of his mother's known ability to talk some smarts into him.

And then in the frenzy of fear this one man puts into multiple cops, one of them shoots his coworker.

Love it.

At least the brown note bugle option should have been explored.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
56,474
22,570
Sleazattle
How is knowing a guy to be crazy supposed to make a difference in not shooting him? Dangerous is dangerous.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
How is knowing a guy to be crazy supposed to make a difference in not shooting him? Dangerous is dangerous.
True.


But how many cops with a host of other ways to subdue him would it take to be able to handle one guy with a pipe without using a gun?


The known history is relevant in that (at least to me) they should have let his mother deal with him instead of keeping her out of the mix.
 

reflux

Turbo Monkey
Mar 18, 2002
4,617
2
G14 Classified
So multiple officers, with batons, tasers, mace, and stun guns needed to shoot a guy with a pipe even after they knew his history and refused to take advantage of his mother's known ability to talk some smarts into him.
Apparently his mother wasn't as effective as they'd like us to think. He hit her in the apartment and she called the cops. I'm willing to throw down $20 saying that she made a valiant effort to talk him down before he hit her. She wasn't too effective in that situation, no?
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
i think manimal can back me up on this, but you don't show up to the scene w/ equal force, but overwhelming force. if nothing else, it gives strong persuasion to not f*** w/ the man, & just go quietly & safely.
 

BMXman

I wish I was Canadian
Sep 8, 2001
13,827
0
Victoria, BC
wrong. period.

there is no such thing as "shoot to wound". you aim for the leg and oops..hit an artery and he bleeds out. you aim for the shoulder and oops...perhaps the EXTREME amount of adrenaline pumping through your body makes you a bit shaky and you accidentally jerk a little bit on the trigger and take the dudes head off. sorry man, it's not like the movies.
and it's not "shoot to kill", you will find no such phrase in ANY police training in this country. it's worded via the supreme court as "shoot to stop the threat."


this cop was completely ok in what he did. the fact that "the police" knew this guy to be a mental patient doesn't change the fact that the officers life was in danger. there are several schizo's that i deal w/ regularly that i know i'll have to shoot if i come across them when they're not on their meds and have a weapon; they call them mental patients for a reason. what was he to do, sit down and talk it over on the couch? make the dude take his meds? or...perhaps, the cop was scared for his life and shot the crazy-ass to keep from getting bludgeoned by a big metal pipe.
ok I made no mention of the "movies" or any crap like that...I didn't suggest some "shoot to wound" policy either...you're trying to put words in my mouth. You can quote whatever Supreme court laws you want....You know I have been out there and many cops think "shoot to stop the threat"...translates into shoot to kill...D
 

BMXman

I wish I was Canadian
Sep 8, 2001
13,827
0
Victoria, BC
i think manimal can back me up on this, but you don't show up to the scene w/ equal force, but overwhelming force. if nothing else, it gives strong persuasion to not f*** w/ the man, & just go quietly & safely.
well if a person is mentally ill...I don't think it has as much of an impact...D
 

blue

boob hater
Jan 24, 2004
10,160
2
california
Why do we give those with the least education in our society the most power on the street level?

This question was posed to me by a very conservative friend of mine the other day...
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
Why do we give those with the least education in our society the most power on the street level?
bitches? oh, i see what you meant.
similarly, when i was in the a.f., security forces (cops) only needed to score in the 29th percentile to qualify. cooks: 30th percentile.
This question was posed to me by a very conservative friend of mine the other day...
you've got token-fever.
 

BMXman

I wish I was Canadian
Sep 8, 2001
13,827
0
Victoria, BC
Why do we give those with the least education in our society the most power on the street level?

This question was posed to me by a very conservative friend of mine the other day...
I do know about that statement...how do you figure cops are some of the leat educated??...D
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
6
i wonder how long a fields medal winner, nobel poet laureate, or a neurosurgeon would last on the streets.
 

Silver

find me a tampon
Jul 20, 2002
10,840
1
Orange County, CA
I do know about that statement...how do you figure cops are some of the leat educated??...D
Because jobs that require education don't put up help wanted signs on highway billboards...

Edit: In Alberta, you have to have a college degree to get the police department to look at you. A lot of times they won't take guys in their early 20s either. Even that doesn't always work. I have a cousin who is a maniac who is a cop up there.
 

manimal

Ociffer Tackleberry
Feb 27, 2002
7,213
22
Blindly running into cactus
Why do we give those with the least education in our society the most power on the street level?

This question was posed to me by a very conservative friend of mine the other day...
how do you figure that? most departments now require a minimum of a bachelors degree to be hired. my department now requires it as a minimum standard. i got in before they changed it but i'm working on my BS because i can't make it to supervisor status w/out one.

besides, if we gave the power to those w/ the MOST education the streets would be overrun by criminals because the academics would only argue about the best way to handle the situation instead of actually handling it.
fighting crime and protecting people is a dirty job and the "edumacated" elite will constantly argue about how a lethal force situation could have been prevented all day long from the comforts of their desks; knowing that they haven't the intestinal fortitude to put themselves in harms way. i sure as hell wouldn't tell an engineer that his building could have been built differently if i've never even studied basic physics. so why is it ok for everyone to armchair quarterback one of the most stressful and intense situations a person can go through w/out ever experiencing something similar themselves?

and kidwoo, it doesn't matter how many officers you have with you...when some lunatic is coming AT YOU with a pipe, it's near impossible to wait it out and hope your buddies jump in and take the hit for you. if the law says we are justified in shooting an armed person who is provoking an attack then we are justified. if you don't like it, change the laws but don't get pissed because we're doing what society told us we could do.
 

blue

boob hater
Jan 24, 2004
10,160
2
california
how do you figure that? most departments now require a minimum of a bachelors degree to be hired. my department now requires it as a minimum standard. i got in before they changed it but i'm working on my BS because i can't make it to supervisor status w/out one.
Isn't required here. Most agencies are dying for people and would not have any officers with any sort of college degree requirement.

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Occupations.aspx

Directly correlated to education levels. Of course, one could always argue the Flynn effect, but it doesn't answer the original question posed...
 

LordOpie

MOTHER HEN
Oct 17, 2002
21,022
3
Denver
Part of the problem is that people freak out when a cop uses unarmed submission techniques... and subsequently sue.

My ju-jutsu teacher teaches at an academy. He only teaches them the minimal amount allowed by the dept. Only one cop ever came to our school for more training and he straight up said, "yeah, the other cops are afraid of law suits, so they pull a gun cuz that's less of a legal issue."

If police had 5+ years of training in a submission art, none of these situations would happen.

But that'll never happen.


Manimal, would you say this is the case in your dept?