[cm16white]

so i went out to marginal after poaching a trail on I-90 today. to discover a notice from the city on the telephone pole at the entrance. as we walked down the trail i saw our wooden 180 degree berm had been removed and the lumber thrown down in the gully below. i walked a little further to discover the next berm made of wood and dirt had been torn down and again the lumber thrown down in the gully. I only walked a little further before i gave up and decided it was over, our beloved trail was gone. so here is the worst thing these trails had been allowed to exist, and at one time legal. i don't really know what caused the city to tear it down but it is a very sad day. i think it was Stu at alki bike and board that originaly got the city to let us build there so maybe he can help again. i went by his shop today but he was out. so if anybody see's him please tell him about my post.

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

So, I was probably one of the last people to rail the 180 berm - how sad. I wonder how much time SST has left - better enjoy that while it lasts.

You can kill a trail, but two more will reappear...probably.

 

[Skookum]

That's lame.

Gotta have people step up and communicate to keep things on the up and up i suppose?

 

[seand]

I am going to head out there tonight and check on our trail to see if they nuked that one as well.

 

[SeaPig]

The hikers, horse owners, and conservationist win all the time. I'm not sure as to why, except to say I know they are more organized. It seems we are happy to have a place to ride even if it isn't on the up and up. So, we don't do much to get it on the up and up. Look at PA, Bellingham, Capitol Forest, and Leavenworth. They all work their butts off to keep their riding areas accessible. We'll have to do the same in King County if we are to win against this tide. I've offered before and I'll offer it now. I'll do all the media work at my cost if a group wants to form and get some legal trails for us to ride. I'll make presentations and shoot video that shows our commitment to maintaining the trials. We need organizers and fund raisers, etc. Or we can just drive forever to other peoples trails. There are a lot of good examples around us of what to do. Let's get it done. Peace!

 

[V-Dub GTI]

Did Jim Childress have anything to do with this?

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

The hikers, horse owners, and conservationist win all the time. I'm not sure as to why, except to say I know they are more organized. It seems we are happy to have a place to ride even if it isn't on the up and up. So, we don't do much to get it on the up and up. Look at PA, Bellingham, Capitol Forest, and Leavenworth. They all work their butts off to keep their riding areas accessible. We'll have to do the same in King County if we are to win against this tide. I've offered before and I'll offer it now. I'll do all the media work at my cost if a group wants to form and get some legal trails for us to ride. I'll make presentations and shoot video that shows our commitment to maintaining the trials. We need organizers and fund raisers, etc. Or we can just drive forever to other peoples trails. There are a lot of good examples around us of what to do. Let's get it done. Peace!

^^^THE TRUTH^^^

Besides, BBTC can only do so much and they're already doing quite a bit. Maybe it's time for another group/club in the area to further drive home the nail on mountain-biking awareness/acknowledgement with the locals. Seems logical to me.

 

[Borneo]

I don't get why you guys always talk about starting new groups to do things.
Why not just do it under the BBTC umbrella? I'm sure Jon and Justin would be happy to have someone take it on under them and they have lots of connections and a good support structure.

SeaPig, you should just go have a beer with them and get that ball rolling.

They have already worked with Dirt Corps as a consulting group to help them with the new bike park on the Ridge.

Though, I was under the impression from another local that the soils were so bad there that there was no way that any government group would advocacte building legally there.

(BTW: I thought this WAS already legal?)

 

[seand]

I don't get why you guys always talk about starting new groups to do things.
Why not just do it under the BBTC umbrella? I'm sure Jon and Justin would be happy to have someone take it on under them and they have lots of connections and a good support structure.

Justin and John had pizza and beer with a handful of builders to go over support and working the proper channels to have the few trails out there accepted and grandfathered in. The city had already okayed what was going on and the nature con group was working with us closely and had no issues thus far so having BBTC step in seemed like not only the next progressive step, but also a sure-fire way to have everything good to go. After the dinner we never heard another peep from anyone at the BBTC regarding the trails...we continued with business as usual and well, here we are today.

So you tell me...why NOT start a group that may actually help prevent such things from happening in the future?

 

[SeaPig]

Part of the answer is in your statement. They have already worked with Dirt Corps, etc. I don't hear you saying that Dirt Corps should become a part of BBTC. Dirt Corps formed around a common need to build riding spots near to them.

BBTC has a mission. To broaden it only weakens it. I fully support what they do, but frankly Gravity Mountain Biking isn't well understood by the powers to be, why burden XC and All Mountain with the unpopular opinion powers to be have for freeride and downhill, even dirt jumping? As well, the more effective groups that we put forward, all working together, the more power we have.

I would like to see a Gravity minded group that not only worked to legalize it's trails, SST flowpark, the Exits etc., but also worked to educate Mayors, the Governor, and powers to be on the economic benefits of going legal with our world class trails. This group would point out how much a downhill racer like Luke does for showing the world that we rip here in the greater Seattle area and that they should come here and rip with us. O, and spend their money here. I read somewhere that the North Shore to Whistler corridor brings in around 50million in revenue each year. There is no reason why this kind of talk shouldn't be a part of the argument. Our leaders rarely make a decision without taking the economic benefit into account. Yet, we talk about "our needs to have trails" and "if we have a few legal we will not build illegal," and "it's not craziness, but skill..." We need to put Gravity Mountain biking into terms like revenue, and tax base, and small business development - jobs. In those terms, it's sexy to more than just the riders and people will listen, in my opinion.

So, yeah, I do think BBTC does a fine job, so do the guys up in Bellingham, Leavenworth, and PA. But they are all as far as I can see working on certain areas of the problem. There are still many areas that get left out.

Another way to illustrate this is when there was the big blow down. BBTC, I believe it was BBTC, cut up and cleared trees from the known and legal cross country trails like those at SST. I used money from Bones Over Metal to rent a chainsaw and joined with other downhillers and their chainsaw to clear SST flowpark. Would BBTC have cleared it? Is it even their responsibility? There is room for more groups and that doesn't mean that the groups can't work together for the common good of all mountain bikers. Peace!

 

[MinorThreat]

Sounds like this whole unfortunate incident just may be the impetus you all needed to finally get things rolling over there. There are certainly enough people; there can be a lot of power there if you organize. Good luck!

 

[Certified Drunk]

What did the notice on the pole say?

 

[MMike]

What did the notice on the pole say?

It said, "I lost 45lbs! Call this number and ask me how!"

 

[SeaPig]

It said, "I lost 45lbs! Call this number and ask me how!"

That's funny!

 

[cm16white]

it said something like how it was ilegal to destroy, mutilate,remove dirt and trees from or vandalize any city property and could carry a punishment of up to $5000 and a year in city jail. aslo posted do not enter. the thing i still don't understand is if they are trying trying to clean it up why throw the lumber down in the gully? it looks terrible and i'm sure the nature consortium people will be thrilled to find it laying in the bog/stream they are trying to clean up. i just don't get it.and Mark you and i should talk lets get the ball rolling i'm tierd of working my ass off on a trail and haveing tore down.
sean let me know how your trail faired

 

[luvz2ridez]

Here we go again...

 

[cm16white]

i talked with mark from nature c here is what he had to say
"We've been having some problems with motor bikes, atvs, pick-ups and jeeps
off-roading in the greenbelt. The police, park security, maintenance crews
and natural areas crews have been out to file reports, post signage, and
block entrances at least for the larger vehicles. Unfortunately, any type
of bicycle is illegal there. This is not my rule but a City of Seattle
ordinance. In addition, Seattle Parks and Recreation recently started a
campaign of systematically removing unauthorized bmx and mountain bike
trails from their land. I saw the one bridge along the access road was
signed and then removed, but I haven't had the time to investigate further."





Mark Tomkiewicz (buphalo)
Restoration Project Coordinator
The Nature Consortium
4408 Delridge Way SW #107
Seattle, WA 98106
206.923.0853
www.naturec.org

 

[trailhacker]

...and joined with other downhillers and their chainsaw to clear SST flowpark. Would BBTC have cleared it? Is it even their responsibility?

I would have to say no to both questions.
I am not a BBTC member and do not speak for them.
Correct me if I am wrong, but is SST a "legal" area? I know it is allowed but that is far different than recognized, approved or "legal". Even if BBTC members ride there and do work there as individuals I wouldn't think they as a group would be there unless it is officially recognized by whoever has juristiction.

As for forming a group to get access to areas for building, more power to you.

But one thing to keep in mind. If the BBTC helps you to get a relationship with someone they have already established a relationship with they are sort of putting their ass on the line; they are vouching for you.
Say they help you get the go ahead on building some sick new trail with sick features, but after a few years the driving force person(s) tires of the sport or gets married or has kids or moves or horribly dis-figure themselves in a crash, or... whatever. They now are out of it and the rest of the group fades leaving this trail in need of attention. The land manager is looking to the BBTC to make this right or get rid of it. And if they don't or if the LM just feels the need to close it themselves it could potentialy sour the relationship they worked so hard to establish.
They have a lot on their plate.
I would suggest to anyone wanting to push for this to start attending the USFS, DNR, King County Parks, or even Seattle Parks meetings to get a feeling for how long and drawn out buracracy can be.
Especially with the USFS and the DNR, get a glimpse of the well-orginaized and well-funded groups that want nothing more than to keep you out.
I went with Simon Lawton to a city council meeting years ago for a yet to be named (Colonade) park before the BBTC got involved.
OMf'nG!

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

If I had the patience required to deal with the political side of the issue, I'd be more than glad to lead the crusade. As-is, I wouldn't hurt the cause but I know there's others out there more capable of carrying that torch than I am.
I would probalby be more effective in a communications type of spot...keeping everybody in the loop, so to say.

Trailhacker also brought up a great point as far as BBTC potentially putting their collective asses on the line if they were to associate with and/or vouch for a group like this. Considering how much work they've done just to get where they've gotten now, it would be a shame if another group just came in and pulled the figurative rug from under them.

I would also suggest that any club/organization that forms should also consider education and not just access. Perhaps clinics and workshops for the less knowledgeabe/skilled enthusiasts. That would only add credibility to the cause - don't just seek places to ride, seek more riders to help maintain and enjoy the trails/parks we would manage.

A catchy name would be cool, too!

 

[Str8OutaBallard]

Wood is gettin ripped out all over... I heard a rumor about some stuff that's less than a year old getting torn out... I'll know Thurs after I ride it and see it 1rst hand... it's all mtn stuff...

 

[Borneo]

Mike, it's true. Seeing it for yourself just makes it suck that much more....

I was planning on covering for Erik today but can ride Thursday. What time will you all be out there then?

 

[Str8OutaBallard]

Mike, it's true. Seeing it for yourself just makes it suck that much more....

I was planning on covering for Erik today but can ride Thursday. What time will you all be out there then?

Not exactly sure... Some of the peep's going are getting off work at 6... a new wheelset maybe ready tommorow for my Xc/commuter bike... if not then I'll be on my 6.6...

Long and the short is could be between 3 and 6... I usually stay up there for at least 3 hrs @ a time... Sometimes untill it get's dark.

 

[Borneo]

Hmm, that's later than I wanted. I'll look for you. I may be trying to re-build the Bog Log. I'll have a red Covert.

Back on thread. I hope that you guys that are fed up finally do step up and do something. I've been on this forum for a few years now and I've seen a lot of typing from the keyboard but not a lot more.
So, yeah, I'm throwing it down. Start your own gig like the successful Dirt Corps group. Do it.

As for the post BBTC meeting, were you all expecting something more from Jon and Justin? Or, was the ball back in the builder's court? They are already swamped and need people to step up for their local concerns as they can't add more to an already overwhelming load.

 

[redFoxx]

I think the problem is that no one is willing to step up into a leadership role as spokesperson to the local groups and parks service. Lots of people willing to be followers, (including me!) but no one who wants to take the big step. I have heard that there may be a free ride org in the making though...something like what Park City, Utah has now - http://www.waftautah.com/

Hopefully the word will get out and those interested will hear about it and finally be able to do something and participate in some way that can make a difference in making these kinds of trails legit and accepted.

 

[MinorThreat]

I think the problem is that no one is willing to step up into a leadership role as spokesperson to the local groups and parks service. Lots of people willing to be followers, (including me!) but no one who wants to take the big step.

It usually is too much for any one person. I myself prefer a more "behind-the-scenes" support role in the FTTRC. Sometimes it helps if two or three of your more articulate, outgoing people opt to pool their talents and be that "one" spokesperson. In other words, share the load a bit so that one person does not feel like they are shouldering the whole burden.

 

[seand]

As for the post BBTC meeting, were you all expecting something more from Jon and Justin? Or, was the ball back in the builder's court? They are already swamped and need people to step up for their local concerns as they can't add more to an already overwhelming load.

This amuses me as you seem to always been pushing bbtc like the next designer drug that has the potential to just keep on givin'r.

The only reason anyone entertained the notion of having the bbtc involved was to possibly take advantage of the relationship that we were told they had with the city.

The meeting ended with "well let us see what we can figure out and we will be in contact shortly. If you hear anything else or need anything else, don't hesitate to get in touch."

Oddly enough, I did just that with some new concerns yet we never heard another peep again...my best guess was either Tiger or the collonade needed something so all else was dropped and forgotten about.

I am all for them (bbtc) getting involved but if you are truly spread that thin, don't act like you are going to assist (it just reflects poorly) when you are the one who initiated the get together....

There is no reason to drag on with that any more...this doesn't need to turn into another "why I hate the bbtc" thread.

Trails come and go and that's life...

 

[redFoxx]

It usually is too much for any one person. I myself prefer a more "behind-the-scenes" support role in the FTTRC. Sometimes it helps if two or three of your more articulate, outgoing people opt to pool their talents and be that "one" spokesperson. In other words, share the load a bit so that one person does not feel like they are shouldering the whole burden.

Ah yes, you're from Beacon. You need to give us lessons in organizing! See we just need those folks who are buddies already and can work together...damn I wish I was more outgoing...

 

[SeaPig]

In my opinion, Gravity Mountain Biking has a perception problem that xc and All Mt. doesn't. As long as we are fighting individual battles with specific land managers, our fight is only as good as that person is willing to listen. I'd love to be a part of an effort that brings together all the efforts of all the areas organizations and additionally shows the positives of trail building the way we do it (skinnies across bogs so that the area is not messed with) and that we build skill progressively and that we are not just a bunch of meat heads with death wishes. This is what most people think, so why not work together to change this opinion and show the economic benefits of our sport. Why not put this together in a PR effort aimed at the Govenor, the Mayors and local representatives. The Chamber Of Commerces, etc. Get them to want us and declare us positive. I mean I'm sure it won't be an easy road, but every other special interest group on the planet that wants something creates a PR effort to help get it.

I would help, I'd provide the media support and my time to a PR effort that would work from the top down not toil in obscurity only to find out that someone changes their opinion and our jumps or features get destroyed.

Imagine the state declaring that a business that gives land to a mountain bike effort being given a tax break or some kind of incentive because we've convinced them of the economic benefit. They do it for the film industry and many others. This is just my two cents and it is only meant to get the conversation flowing. Please don't think I feel I know all the answers, but I can see how the current approach of hiding your trail and hoping that it don't get found is not working, or of making a deal with a single land manager only to find that they change their mind for whatever reason.

If we all band together as a single voice we have the numbers to get our way. Peace and see you all out there on the trail.

 

[coiler7]

hey check out the FTTRC website
http://www.fttrc.org/beacon-rtca.cfm
man, those guys are so structured & well-organized. the landowners are very supportive over there, too!
Major Kudos to Spokane MTBers

 

[Str8OutaBallard]

I think the Dirt Corps is more my speed... I'm gonna inquire w/them

 

[cm16white]

i vote for mark to be the leader

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

Mark already offered up all the help possible to run a PR campaign. That alone can take a HUGE amount of time and effort. He'd have no time to sleep if he were to be the torchbearer for the cause as well.

I think Minor Threat hit the nail on the head when he suggested a multi-headed leadership structure. One mind...many bodies. That may work better since there'd be multiple views on any specific topic, so the concensus can agree on the most logical path to take.



At this point it's still all internet-speak. I think perhaps a gathering of sorts somewhere would be a good idea. Perhaps on an existing trail in our area on a day that the most people could be present. I'm not sure where I'd fit in, but that's the first step in finding out. I would bet most of us are on this same boat.

 

[Borneo]

I already have your slogan figured out...

"We're here, we're core, get used to it..."

 

[DBR X6 RIDER]

I already have your slogan figured out...

"We're here, we're core, get used to it..."

Funny you say that...I forgot to mention that coming up with some sort of mission-statement may be a good place to start. Kudos!

 

[SeaPig]

i vote for mark to be the leader

Man, Thanks!

But, Leader, I am not! Soldier, I want to be. The Cause, I believe in!

- Ripped off from Yoda irate2:


Some days though it does feel like a war. What gives a hiker, or a logger, or for that matter a horse owner the idea that a few freeriders and downhillers have a more negative impact on the land or provide a higher insurance risk. How many hikers go to REI and buy and book then drive their SUV to a trial head. Where they get out and hike for a couple of hours trampling over a ton of nature they don't know anything about, then get back into their SUV and go home. Or, as often happens get lost and tax the tax payers to rescue their sorry ass.

Or how many loggers have lost a hand or a chunk from their legs. And look what they do when they go in a clear cut.

I'll never ride a trail again that allows horses, they destroy the soil and make the worse riding conditions.

This may sound a little extreme, but I was up all night editing. I have to edit my feature film around my paying jobs. Anyway, I will help an effort from the PR side of things. I say, let this winter be the winter we get what we want and do it by letting anyone and everyone know that there are only mistaken reasons for keeping us from our trails and a ton of positive reasons for us to have them. The main one, being the economic benefit of having guys like Cam McCaul come here to shoot on our trails. His section in NWD8 will have people the world over want to come here and ride only to find out that the trial isn't there, or that we won't tell them where it is, because we don't want to loose it. It's time to fight back and not do head on but from around the corner so we win before they even no they've been in a fight.

I've got some ideas for how to do this but it will take many more than just me to make it happen. It has to be a multi-pronged attack.

 

[Str8OutaBallard]

i vote for mark to be the leader

I vote for Casey

 

[ebxtreme]

Seapig, check your PM's. As someone already alluded, a few of us are starting to get organized precisely for the reasons mentioned on this thread. We haven't sent anything out yet because we're not ready, but it already includes several builders from the area. Of course, the goal would be to include all riders/builders, but we are just getting our sh*t together.

The time's come to get organized or risk losing the trails that are worthwhile for us to ride. With our proximity to B.C., there's more than enough FR'ers in the greater Seattle area to argue that we should have legit areas to ride. Don't know about you, but I'm sick of building and riding in the shadows. Not to mention, tired of driving to Whistler and the Shore.....

Cheers,
EB

 

[SeaPig]

checked them and replied.

 

[redFoxx]

As someone already alluded, a few of us are starting to get organized precisely for the reasons mentioned on this thread. We haven't sent anything out yet because we're not ready, but it already includes several builders from the area. Of course, the goal would be to include all riders/builders, but we are just getting our sh*t together.
Cheers,
EB

Glad you stepped in and commented as I had heard that "rumor" and know it's in the works.

 

[Borneo]

It's no rumor when it comes from me sista.

EB, come on over Monday with your better half. I have an idea for LF.