[I Are Baboon]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/778653.asp

Watching this video makes me sick. Since when were cops given the authority the repeatedly beat suspects like this?

 

[KrusteeButt]

Hmmmm....at first I thought "Well, the guy wasn't doing what he was told to do...he's WAY bigger than the cop...cop told him repeatedly to get down on the ground, the guy wouldn't do it...most people know that if you don't do what the cop tells you to do, when he tells you to do it, you're asking for trouble."

But the repeated hits with the baton...that just doesn't seem like something anyone can consider "necessary force".
When the 2nd cop came in to help, he got a couple whacks from batons...I don't like seeing that happen, but that's what's gonna happen when you don't comply. But then he (finally) figured out to lay down...and the cop continually slammed the baton into the guy's leg, what?, maybe 8 or 9 times? Come on! That's not necessary.

It's hard to say though. How are police trained for this situation? I have no idea and I certainly won't profess to. But after watching the tape officials may determine that the two officers did precisely what they were trained to do. Makes you wonder what is being taught in police academy? And what's the basis for that teaching?
Tough call.

 

[Zonic Man]

You gotta be kidding me.

Perfectly justified.

The officer has a reasonable expectation of safety, can't blame him. He ordered the HUGE guy to get down. He wouldn't. Cop couldn't wrestle him down.

Cop finally subdued him by getting him on the ground with baton, he continued to get up. Watch the tape. The cop only hit him when he wouldn't lie down as ordered.

The other cop was hitting him in the leg. Your leg doesn't work, you cannot get up and attack the officers, right?

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by Zonic Man
You gotta be kidding me.

Perfectly justified.

Perfectly correct. Good use of force. Suspect was not following commands.

 

[I Are Baboon]

Repeatedly beating the guy when he is face first on the ground is justified? YOU have got to be kidding ME.

Nowhere in that video is he shown trying to attack an officer, so where did you get that? Once the guy is face down on the ground, jam your knee in his back and cuff him. No need to strike him a dozen more times.

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by I Are Baboon
Once the guy is face down on the ground, jam your knee in his back and cuff him. No need to strike him a dozen more times.

How big are you?

The perp, was over 300lbs, cop 160lbs, and the guy wasn't allowing for his hands to be cuffed.

I wrestle with my 300lb cousin (I'm a svelte 230lbs) and he tosses me around like a rag doll.

The guy wouldn't stop resisting, the officers had to keep applying force.

 

[KrusteeButt]

Z -
I understand, and agree to some extent. Yeah, like we both said, the guy was way bigger than the cop and not doing as he was told to do.
I don't disagree with the first couple whacks...and then he went down. I can even understand a couple "warning" whacks to the leg. But it appeared to me, perhaps an untrained eye, that the guy finally complied and went down and the officer immediately started slamming the guy's leg...and at that point, no, he was not trying to get back up. Yes, another segment of the video showed the guy trying to get up and yes, I agree that the cop did what was necessary to put the guy back down.
Again, perhaps that's what they're trained to do. It's just going to take a little more convincing for me to agree that the repeated whacks to the leg are necessary.
Have you ever been hit with one of those? Especially the extent of how hard that guy was hitting? It hurts...believe me.

 

[I Are Baboon]

Originally posted by ummbikes


How big are you?

The perp, was over 300lbs, cop 160lbs, and the guy wasn't allowing for his hands to be cuffed.

I wrestle with my 300lb cousin (I'm a svelte 230lbs) and he tosses me around like a rag doll.

The guy wouldn't stop resisting, the officers had to keep applying force.

My size is irrevelant to the discussion.

If force is necessary to get the man down, then so be it. But once he is down, you really think it is necessary to keep beating him?

So we agree to disagree. I can live with that.

 

[scofflaw23]

nowhere in that video did it seem to me that the cops were in any sort of danger...yeah, the guy wasn't complying, but in police accademy, don't you learn holds and things like that to take people down? police should only be allowed to use violence in self-defense, and it doesn't seem anywhere in that video that they were doing so.

ben.

 

[ummbikes]

Originally posted by I Are Baboon



So we agree to disagree. I can live with that.

No we must fight untill we hate each other and stuff, and 'till there is a clear winner...

 

[-BB-]

I just wanna watch the Video!!

Darn firewalls!!

What would be funny, is if I actually took a side on this w/o actually seeing what happened. (As I'm sure many others will do)

 

[ibismojo]

Cops should learn judo. getting thrown to the ground will stun the dude long enough for the other cops to jump on the dude's back to hand cuff him.

 

[I Are Baboon]

Originally posted by ummbikes


No we must fight untill we hate each other and stuff, and 'till there is a clear winner...

SOME PEOPLE know when to accept a disagreement and respect your position. OTHERS try to force their opinion onto you and convice you that what they believe is the only "real" answer. I am of the prior.

 

[KrusteeButt]

Originally posted by -BB-
What would be funny, is if I actually took a side on this w/o actually seeing what happened. (As I'm sure many others will do)

And that's actually something else I was thinking about....we only see bits and portions of what the media has "allowed" us to see. The whole video is proably more like 5-10 minutes long...we get to see about a total of 30 or so seconds. The media loves to get the masses going, loves to get them screaming "Racist!" They don't seem to care what the outcome/result is...just as long as people watch it.
Remember Don Henley's song: "Give us dirty laundry!"

Personally, I blame the media for a lot of the crap that goes on in this country.

 

[Zonic Man]

Originally posted by I Are Baboon


SOME PEOPLE know when to accept a disagreement and respect your position. OTHERS try to force their opinion onto you and convice you that what they believe is the only "real" answer. I am of the prior.

LOL.

Then what was the point of that post?

Regarding the officer, if you'd notice, the suspect was NOT face down, he was sitting up with legs flexed.

He got what he deserved. You don't like it, don't go looking for hookers with baggies of drugs on you.

 

[-BB-]

Originally posted by ibismojo
Cops should learn judo. getting thrown to the ground will stun the dude long enough for the other cops to jump on the dude's back to hand cuff him.

Actually, maybe we should get NINJA's to be Cops...
See, Ninja's are great b/c they just don't care

 

[I Are Baboon]

Originally posted by Zonic Man


He got what he deserved. You don't like it, don't go looking for hookers with baggies of drugs on you.

what the hell are you talking about????

 

[Zonic Man]

Originally posted by I Are Baboon


what the hell are you talking about????

You honestly cannot figure it out?

If you don't like the way police don't handle suspects who don't comply, then don't go looking for hookers (like he did) have baggies of drugs on you (like he did) and therefore put yourself into the situation as he did.

It was all in the tape you posted about. It was up to you to make the logical inference between my comment and the tape.

 

[I Are Baboon]

Originally posted by Zonic Man


You honestly cannot figure it out?

If you don't like the way police don't handle suspects who don't comply, then don't go looking for hookers (like he did) have baggies of drugs on you (like he did) and therefore put yourself into the situation as he did.

It was all in the tape you posted about. It was up to you to make the logical inference between my comment and the tape.

Ohhhhh. My PC at work has no sound, so I only saw the video (no audio).

Now that I think about it, perhaps I shouldn't have formulated an opinion having not heard the audio portion of that clip.......

 

[Zonic Man]

Originally posted by I Are Baboon

Now that I think about it, perhaps I shouldn't have formulated an opinion having not heard the audio portion of that clip.......

-BB- was right, portionally! LOL.

Yeah, the audio helped out trememdously to give you insight.

 

[I Are Baboon]

<------ IRB

 

[Yossarian]

The guy was only "suspected" of having sex with a prostitute. I guess that means that they never actually saw an offense occur.

IMO, the cop was correct in using the force that he did, until the guy went to the ground. But the last 8 hits on the tape were uncalled for, the suspected perp was face down and compliant. At least from what I can tell from the vid. I wonder how many more times the guy was struck and did not make it onto the broadcast.

 

[Zonic Man]

Originally posted by Yossarian
But the last 8 hits on the tape were uncalled for, the suspected perp was face down and compliant. At least from what I can tell from the vid. I wonder how many more times the guy was struck and did not make it onto the broadcast.

Yeah, it didn't look that way from my vantage point....but I do see your point. Looked to me as if his "flexed" knee (left one) and arched back indicated that he could easily get up to flee/strike at officers.

And I wondered the SAME THING with regards to the shots that were doled out and not on tape too!

 

[ibismojo]

it's only a matter of time before the **** really hits the fan when cops go too far with the power given to them.

 

[KrusteeButt]

Originally posted by ibismojo
it's only a matter of time before the **** really hits the fan when cops go too far with the power given to them.

Sounds like you're suggesting they haven't gone too far already...did you see the coverage of what occurred in Inglewood?!
And that's just one that got caught on tape...that sh*t happens all the time...in L.A., in Chicago, in New York.
Many officers have gone too far. Unfortunately, because of them, every other officer is seen as an enemy, rather than a "keeper of the peace".

 

[Yossarian]

Originally posted by KrusteeButt


Sounds like you're suggesting they haven't gone too far already...did you see the coverage of what occurred in Inglewood?!
And that's just one that got caught on tape...that sh*t happens all the time...in L.A., in Chicago, in New York.
Many officers have gone too far. Unfortunately, because of them, every other officer is seen as an enemy, rather than a "keeper of the peace".

It happens here in Atlanta, too. I was 2 degrees separated from an incident similar to the Rodney King Beatings, that occured a couple of years ago.

 

[El Jefe]

My feeling on the Inglewood incident was that the cops were abusive - the guy was in cuffs and it was a skinny kid. With this, the huge guy was uncuffed and belligerent. The last couple shots might have been in the grey area, but still, the guy wasn't cuffed and was therefore still a potential danger.

 

[Joe Pozer]

Originally posted by El Jefe
My feeling on the Inglewood incident was that the cops were abusive - the guy was in cuffs and it was a skinny kid. With this, the huge guy was uncuffed and belligerent. The last couple shots might have been in the grey area, but still, the guy wasn't cuffed and was therefore still a potential danger.

I agree 100% with you on that one. Yeah, the cop went to far in the Inglewood incident but this time the suspect was being uncooperative with the police and freaking had a baggie in his mouth. He got what he deserved.

 

[KrusteeButt]

I don't know yet that I'd say "he got what he deserved", but I'll definitely agree that this is different than the Inglewood incident.
You know that cop in Inglewood is saying that the kid was trying to grab his nuts? Says that justified him punching the kid. Hmmmmm, really? Let's see what jury is gonna agree to that. And what did he do to constitute body slamming him into the car?
Oh, and his lawyer is the guy that got one of the Rodney King cops aquitted.

 

[peter6061]

Just curious, but has anyone heard how that cop got that huge gash above his ear before he was slamming and punching the kid?

 

[gecko]

I think I agree with the majority of the people here, in saying that the force used to get the man on the ground was totally acceptable. I also think that with a man that size, who is noncompliant, it may have been very necessary to render his leg incapacitated.

The number of blows to the leg are questionable, I've been hit with one of those batons, as well as a collapsable baton, and for that matter a police flashlight (don't ask), and I know for a fact that you don't have to hit very hard for it to hurt like hell.

The location of the blows, however, was strategic in incapacitating a large man who could easily have man handle either of the cops, possibly even both of them. He was hit in the hamstring to numb it, and make its use painful, stopping him from getting up. From what I saw, he wasn't hit in the face, or any location that might cause extensive damage. According to the report, he had no injuries that required treatment.

I also believe that just because the man finally did get on his stomach doesn't mean the officers where safe. When you weigh 160, 170, hell 200lbs, if a 300lbs man underneath wants to roll over, he's going to do it, no matter how hard your knee is dug into his back. Noncompliancy can turn to aggressiveness very quickly, I've seen it a dozen times in person, and I think the officers were justified in taking control of the situation before that happened.

We also have remember that the cops, in theory, are the good guys, and the guys smoking up with prostitutes are the "bad guys", which means that given a situation, which escalates to a point where force is administered, the police should understandably have the upper hand. It's their job to keep the peace, then go home to their families at the end of the day, so if they have to add a couple blows to a man's hamstring that may not have been necessary in order to do that, I'm all for it.

Damn....what am I doing up at 7am on a saturday???

 

[Lt.Dan]

ok your a op and you dont get paid very much. you get paid well but not good in terms of speak. some big mofo wont listen to you and your out there risking you f ucking life everyday and you expect the cop to say "ok you wonbt get down ill call for back up" hell then loose all the power of the confrentation and prolly loose the suspect. i dont think he did one thing wrong.

 

[Woggle Bear]

mmmm...Ok guys, imagine you have a job, where every day before you go to work you worry if you will come home that night, and if you do what kind of shape will you be in.
You know that most everyone you see hates you and may even want to see you dead.
Your job is to enforce the rules of society in places that do not follow the beliefs of that society.
Everyone you encounter during your shift has the pontential to harm or even kill you.
You get cursed and spit at on a daily basis.
Then you have three law suits filed by jail house lawyers hanging over your head.
Then you have to worry about the media and what they are going to do next. Vultures waiting for anything they can use to twist in to a story whip the neighborhoods in to a riotous frenzy.
Oh, and you employer, yea they are great too. Looking for the next budget cut or scapegoat to keep their own ass off the line."election time...I need the minorty vote, mmmm I know I'll fire some white cops! Yea that'll do it, GO ME!"
Your significant other is on your ass 24-7 for having a affair...all your doing is working extra jobs to make ends meet. Cause you don't want to use the food stamps you qualify for.

(analogy, not based on Inglewood)So now some little doped up thug attacks you and splits your head open. You have to fight him to get him cuffed and try to put him in the patrol car. He is struggleing, kicking, and making grabs for your belt/ gun/nutz, anything he can do to hurt you. So you slam him on your patrol unit as he lurches forward. Blam! He gets a bump on the head, OH GOD! YOU ARE OUT OF CONTROL!!!
What about the hole in your head?
What about the rap sheet this guy has?
What about all the people he has hurt in his life?
See that does not matter because that happens soo often that it is not news worthy. Cops out a control! now thats news! Thugs killing one another robbing, raping, and killing our society, naw thats old news. Who cares that some ex-con went to someones home and kidnapped, raped, and murdered some ones child, no a cop punched a guy in cuffs!! Lets get him!!

Judo...Yea that would be great, and many cops do study martial arts. But it opens you up to lawsuits when you use it on the job. Holds, and all that crap does not work too well when a thug is hell bent on killing you so he does not have to go to jail over a 1 oz baggie of wack.

No offense RM, IRB but until you have been there you just can't understand. Rember they are just floks in a crap job, scared out of their minds 80% of the time.

So all that being said, I am a firm supporter of using NINJAs to enforce our laws!!! You can't sue what you can't see!!!
Ninja powers rule!


WB

 

[Ranger]

Servus!

Yep, tootaly justified. I could count the escalations in the levels of force - the officers did what was necessary to subdue the subject.

Woogle - well put brother.

Why is it the Americans beleive that the police should use nothing more than firm language to subdue criminals? I think that this stems from the fact that the average citizen puts himself in the shoes of the perpitrator and decides that the would do everything that the police tell them to. When they see scenes like this, they are outraged because "why would anyone be so stupid to fight against the police - the cops have guns, fer cripe sakes!" Wha they don't know is that this guy is on strike two and is looking down the barrel of a long stay at the Gray Bar Hotel so he's made the decision that he's not going to go down for something piddly like a minor possession charge. He fights the cops in the hopes that he'll get away. Desperate measures for desperate people. The average citizen also has no idea about things like inappropriate use of force charges and what their effect on your career they have.


God it sucks. Hardest job in the world if you ask me.

 

[fourgivn1]

'Stop, you rascally criminal! Stop, or I'll say stop again!"

 

[Random]

It's been a while since I have seen cops but do they still show the cops thumpin' people that are not complying?

 

[dg806]

OK..let me share my .02~
Some of you @ RM may not know I am a police officer. I had a very similar incident happen to me one night working. I am going down the highway and I pass a sidestreet and see bluelights. When I pull up, I see two officers going at it with one suspect(fighting). The officer was trying to arrest the suspect for DWI. Well, the suspect was high on crack and decides he doesn't want to go. The next officer arrives and tries to help officer #1. I an the third officer on the scene. When I got there, the suspect had been peppered sprayed twice! NO Effect. They could not get him to the ground to get cuffs on him. I come running up from behind and tackle the suspect. He hits me several times during the conflict while wrestling, but I manage to pin one of his arms under him and the other two cops grab the other hand and cuff it. Then we manage to cuff the one I had. Oh yeah......i sprayed him to(no effect). Pepper spray is the first line of force~ Since that didn't work we could have if we chose to used our asp batons....but we didn't. It took three of us to get him cuffed. One man would never had done it alone. And until you fight someone high on crack,(they have superhuman strength)! If I had been there by myself, there is no doub't in my mind that I would have shot him!!! When an officer's emotions get that high, it is very easy to let your actions get away from you! But like someone else said......I have a family and I am going home no matter what it takes! No drug crazed criminal is going to take that away from me!! He appealed the crack and dwi charges to superior court to a jury trail and claimed excessive force! But we did have cameras in the cars with mics! They jury found him guilty and ruled we were justified! Every case is different and sometime you only see several seconds out of in my case was 10-15 minutes! I think most of these are justified, but there are some that are not! Don't do the crime and listen to every command Police give you!!!

 

[KrusteeButt]

dg,
I'd just like to thank you for your point of view...I was hoping that someone here was an officer and could give us a little insight. I think most of us agree, the guy wasn't necessarily fighting, per se, but not doing as he was instructed by the officer. Personally, I agree with most of the action we saw there. Again, my only thought was "Were all of those whacks to the leg necessary?" Yeah, I know the guy was resisting and he had to be restrained or "disabled".
I am curious about police training in a situation like that. You know on TV we always see that an officer draws his weapon and orders a suspect to the ground...but of course, that's TV, so we don't really see what happens in REAL life. Yeah, I am curious what is on that tape that we didn't see. How did the officer know there was something in the guy's mouth? Did the officer have the guy on the ground, begin to put cuffs on and the guy stood up? We don't know. I am very interested in your view of how you think this may have gone down.

And just to restate, I blame the media for a whole lot of stuff. This is a prime example. All we see is this guy getting beaten...we see a total of maybe 45 seconds of an occurrence that probably lasted 10 or 15 minutes. They showed us what they thought would get us riled up, and now there are more people seeing the police as "the enemy" rather than keeper's of the peace.

 

[Woggle Bear]

Originally posted by KrusteeButt

I am curious about police training in a situation like that. You know on TV we always see that an officer draws his weapon and orders a suspect to the ground...but of course, that's TV, so we don't really see what happens in REAL life.

Most departments have their own "Use of Force" guide lines. You use one level, evaluate the effect, and if it does not halt the suspects actions you move on to the next appropiate level. You can skip to what ever level is neccessary to effect the arrest, up to and including the use of deadly force.
Ours are: Verbal commands(you are under arrest,etc)
Pepper Spray
Open empty hand techniques(take downs, etc)
Impact weapons(PR24, ASP, Baton) maybe flashlight
Closed empty hand techniques(punches, kicks, etc.)
Deadly Force(what ever you have to do)

Many times it can go from Verbal straght to deadly force. QUICKLY
But keep in mind that it is the suspect that escalates the levels by their actions.

Cops are not trained to lose fights. Losing a fight usally means that your friends get to go to your funeral. So they can be quite vicious in a fight, no cop wants to die.


I still like the idea of employing Ninjas for lawenforcement

WB
ex-cop

 

[ridetoofast]

Originally posted by KrusteeButt


And that's actually something else I was thinking about....we only see bits and portions of what the media has "allowed" us to see. The whole video is proably more like 5-10 minutes long...we get to see about a total of 30 or so seconds. The media loves to get the masses going, loves to get them screaming "Racist!" They don't seem to care what the outcome/result is...just as long as people watch it.
Remember Don Henley's song: "Give us dirty laundry!"

Personally, I blame the media for a lot of the crap that goes on in this country.

or more recent pop culture Kelsey Gramar (sp?) in 15 Minutes... "if it bleeds it leads"
They don't seem to care what the outcome/result is...just as long as people watch it.
THIS is one of the most succint observations I've seen in sometime.