[fighterkyle]

Sorry but i need the message board expertise:

Im a CAT 2 class rider who is trying to take racing a little more seriously, i currently ride a banshee scythe and want a more race oriented bike.

i have 2 used bikes in my sights,

An M6 with a boxxer world cup, cane creek double barrel with Ti spring, the components are mediocre( xt brakes, outlaw rims, heavy cranks, deore derailer). for a good price

a little more spendy is a Cove Shocker with Boxxer world cup, dhx 5 with Ti spring, and great components(elixer cr brakes, x.o derailer, holzfeller cranks)

the suspensions seem about equal to me so my question is: is the M6 vpp linkage very superior to the Coves, and is it worth the extra time of having to upgrade all the components? the difference in price is 600 bucks between the two.

thanks guys

 

[zdubyadubya]

If I'm not mistaken, then the Cove is a VPP bike as well (not Intense or Santa Cruz version, but it is a variant).

I would rock the Cove over the Intense in a heartbeat. No hate towards Intense, but the specs seem to make up the $600 difference. Plus the Cove seems like a bit burlier bike frame. If you are getting more into racing, the last thing you want is a frame to have issues...

*edit... the more i look at the specs, the more they seem pretty on par. i dunno man. do you know for sure that you would upgrade components? why not rock the parts that are on it till they break?

 

[fighterkyle]

Well, i guess i could stay with those components, the one thing i forgot to mention is that the M6 is a medium frame and the Cove is a small, and i'm 5'6".

 

[zdubyadubya]

Cove then. For sure.

 

[joelsman]

I say cove also for the size also, some company makes new drop outs for the cove if you want it lower slacker. do some research on mtbr.com for those.

 

[norbar]

If I'm not mistaken, then the Cove is a VPP bike as well (not Intense or Santa Cruz version, but it is a variant).

I would rock the Cove over the Intense in a heartbeat. No hate towards Intense, but the specs seem to make up the $600 difference. Plus the Cove seems like a bit burlier bike frame. If you are getting more into racing, the last thing you want is a frame to have issues...

*edit... the more i look at the specs, the more they seem pretty on par. i dunno man. do you know for sure that you would upgrade components? why not rock the parts that are on it till they break?

I hate to pointit out but saying that its a vpp as well is pretty silly. Virtual pivot designs can vary as much as single pivots do (compare a bb pivot to a high pivot like balfa and you know what I mean). From what I remember booth bikes have quite different feels.(Hell even the 951 and the m6 are quite different)


Still for the size Id pick cove. There was a topic about the dropouts on ridemonkey as well.

 

[mtakahas]

I have a small 2009 M6 frame (works blue) that I have for sale... it was only used a couple months last season, and the first part of this season.... new sponsorship forces sale... it is in awesome shape, as with all my stuff, it was taken care of... no dents or dings, and frame saver tape was used on complete frame and high wear areas... it's got a manitou revox with dsp ti-spring... was thinking in the neighborhood of 1600.00 with ti spring, 1500.00 without ti spring...

 

[fighterkyle]

I have a small 2009 M6 frame (works blue) that I have for sale... it was only used a couple months last season, and the first part of this season.... new sponsorship forces sale... it is in awesome shape, as with all my stuff, it was taken care of... no dents or dings, and frame saver tape was used on complete frame and high wear areas... it's got a manitou revox with dsp ti-spring... was thinking in the neighborhood of 1600.00 with ti spring, 1500.00 without ti spring...

Hucknroll has that same frame brand new

 

[fighterkyle]

I think I'm going with the cove, I was leaning that way anyways

 

[ROTFLMAO]

I have the NSB Dropouts on my Cove STD. They're pretty cool and make a noticeable difference. Not to the point where it feels like you have a different bike. More along the lines of, "hey, this feels a bit better!" High speed cornering is where I notice it the most.

More info on the dropouts.

 

[zdubyadubya]

totally agree man. i guess what i was trying to say but it didn't come across very well was that based on my very limited experience, the VPP "feel" of the shocker is NOT inferior to the M6. Just different. For me, the "benefits" of the Intense design do not outweigh the FRO label put on that bike (which IMO just gives Intense an out for making bikes that only last 1-2 seasons). If any fanboys are reading this, I'm not saying that the bikes suck, in fact they are very beautiful and ride awesome, I'm just saying that I don't like how companies have started to make flimsy bikes on purpose with the intent of selling you a new one next season cuz its For Racing Only.

I hate to pointit out but saying that its a vpp as well is pretty silly. Virtual pivot designs can vary as much as single pivots do (compare a bb pivot to a high pivot like balfa and you know what I mean). From what I remember booth bikes have quite different feels.(Hell even the 951 and the m6 are quite different)


Still for the size Id pick cove. There was a topic about the dropouts on ridemonkey as well.

 

[fighterkyle]

Thanks for all the input everybody. I'm going to get that Cove next week.

 

[norbar]

totally agree man. i guess what i was trying to say but it didn't come across very well was that based on my very limited experience, the VPP "feel" of the shocker is NOT inferior to the M6. Just different. For me, the "benefits" of the Intense design do not outweigh the FRO label put on that bike (which IMO just gives Intense an out for making bikes that only last 1-2 seasons). If any fanboys are reading this, I'm not saying that the bikes suck, in fact they are very beautiful and ride awesome, I'm just saying that I don't like how companies have started to make flimsy bikes on purpose with the intent of selling you a new one next season cuz its For Racing Only.

Wow. Finally someone that thinks like me about intense and does not crap himself every time he sees one. For the price they are really bad. Very good looking and ride good but they sometimes have problems with build quality and dont last long (even the m6 that isnt the lightest out there). Kinda like having a great looking woman, great in bed but her boobs are different sizes and she gets fat 2days after the wedding

 

[iRider]

Wow. Finally someone that thinks like me about intense and does not crap himself every time he sees one. For the price they are really bad.

So you rather crap yourself for a Taiwan frame without proven race heritage by a designer that came right out of college? And on top of it it doesn't work well with a CCDB.

 

[captainspauldin]

Got reminded this weekend of how much I still love my shocker(sounds dirty) after 2 seasons, took a spin on a buddy's bike(not a m6) and was instantly reminded of how much better my bike felt vs friend's bike. I was considering getting a new demo at the end of the season, but I decided this weekend I'm not and keeping my shocker. It just feels dialed on just about anything, it does feel a bit long on tighter turns but I'd gladly accept that for the added high speed stability. The NSB dropouts really do make a nice difference, and give the shocker "modern" DH Race bike geometry, without going overboard.

 

[norbar]

So you rather crap yourself for a Taiwan frame without proven race heritage by a designer that came right out of college? And on top of it it doesn't work well with a CCDB.

Prooven race heritage means nothing for me really. Legend was extensively tested and the quality on it is superior to intense even if its not as pretty. Also the downtube is not made from tinfoil. Oh yeah I forgot - I ride one, do you ?

 

[zdubyadubya]

So you rather crap yourself for a Taiwan frame without proven race heritage by a designer that came right out of college? And on top of it it doesn't work well with a CCDB.

...aaaannnnddd.. cue the fanbois.

I'm not sure where you are going with this man.... Who cares if the Cove doesn't work with a CCDB, it doesn't come with one, it comes with a DHX.

"Made in Taiwan" these days means nothing. In fact I would hedge bets on a Taiwan frame (from one of the big boys, huffy and company excluded) being BETTER quality than homegrown stuff (i.e. intense's crooked swingarms)

Right out of college? so? dude has a degree, combine that with a TON of real world experience riding DH bikes and its a win win for me.

unless you are being sarcastic and agreeing with norbar and i, then nevermind. i couldn't tell.

 

[norbar]

...aaaannnnddd.. cue the fanbois.

I'm not sure where you are going with this man.... Who cares if the Cove doesn't work with a CCDB, it doesn't come with one, it comes with a DHX.

"Made in Taiwan" these days means nothing. In fact I would hedge bets on a Taiwan frame (from one of the big boys, huffy and company excluded) being BETTER quality than homegrown stuff (i.e. intense's crooked swingarms)

Right out of college? so? dude has a degree, combine that with a TON of real world experience riding DH bikes and its a win win for me.

unless you are being sarcastic and agreeing with norbar and i, then nevermind. i couldn't tell.

Im not sure bout the irony but the college remark made me think he was bashing the legend not shocker.

 

[zdubyadubya]

Im not sure bout the irony but the college remark made me think he was bashing the legend not shocker.

if thats the case, dude is waaaay out in left field. legend is a killer bike.

 

[bullcrew]

M6 its blue..... Other than that I have no idea but blue is cool....

 

[captainspauldin]

Im not sure bout the irony but the college remark made me think he was bashing the legend not shocker.

yeah, Shocker is made in Canada also.. I dunno wtf he was talking about..

 

[iRider]

Prooven race heritage means nothing for me really. Legend was extensively tested and the quality on it is superior to intense even if its not as pretty. Also the downtube is not made from tinfoil. Oh yeah I forgot - I ride one, do you ?

Was testing one, but no CCDB, no go for me!
There are quite a few around here and I dunno. Before I saw them real life and rode one I really was thinking the Legend is a great bike. Not so sure anymore, quite linear feeling travel. But geo is good, a little low BB for my liking.

 

[iRider]

yeah, Shocker is made in Canada also.. I dunno wtf he was talking about..

Talking about the Legend. Shocker is in fact a bike that I really liked when I demo'd one. Only drawbacks for me were the little heavy frame and the fact that it has a 83 mm BB (that I don't like). I know, I am weird.

 

[norbar]

Was testing one, but no CCDB, no go for me!
There are quite a few around here and I dunno. Before I saw them real life and rode one I really was thinking the Legend is a great bike. Not so sure anymore, quite linear feeling travel. But geo is good, a little low BB for my liking.

So geo is good, the bike holds to abuse great and you just couldnt get used to a low bb so you bash it? Ive tried mine on many different trails this year and I catch the ground from time to time but not often enough to upset me.
As for the CCDB - you want because chicks dig cane creeks? Because the susp works very good with a rc4, probably with other shocks too. Also was the CCDB you tested the new one that comes stock with it? The older ccdbs were not good with lover ratios.
Susp on the is progressive to linear. I bottom the bike from time to time but not more often than the m6s my friends have (actualy less often).

Also was the one you tested set correctly for you?

 

[iRider]

So geo is good, the bike holds to abuse great and you just couldnt get used to a low bb so you bash it?

Not bashing, but I don't see what makes it better than an Intense besides you deciding to buy it.
Low BB with 83 mm and linear travel were just not for me.

As for the CCDB - you want because chicks dig cane creeks? Because the susp works very good with a rc4, probably with other shocks too.

I only buy bikes and parts based on what chicks like and then post 100 pics of it on bike messageboards for them to see. Unfortunately I just have realized that there are hardly any chicks around here. Guess I have to sell the bike and get a cool truck.

Also was the CCDB you tested the new one that comes stock with it? The older ccdbs were not good with lover ratios.
Susp on the is progressive to linear. I bottom the bike from time to time but not more often than the m6s my friends have (actualy less often).

Rode a Vivid on it. According to owner CCDB has been back to CC several times for revalves without success.

Also was the one you tested set correctly for you?

No, of course not, who tests a bike that is set up correct? The frame was actually an XXXXS and a SID fork was installed.

 

[chup29]

i dont know about your guys experiance with the 2 bikes here, but ive owned a v10 and a shocker, riding the shocker now, i have friends with the m6, and it felt pretty close to my 06 v10 (i had a custom lower link that made it lower and slacker) so im just gonna speak from my experience... im 5'10 and ride medium frame, my v10 was fully racered out, it really wanted to stay stuck to the ground, did everything pretty great, was a bit small for me, my next bike was a sunday that fit me better, no more snagged shorts... now im on the shocker and it fits more like the v10,definatly short in the tt, and the shocker rides way different, it loves to jump, no matter how much i try to tune it out, its just crazy poppy, little bit steeper, for racing, the new dropouts make a big difference, my v10 was smoother, tracked along better, they both pedal great, for racing, i would prefer the v10, but the shocker is amazing, much more fun as an everyday bike, much better overall bike, not overally heavy either, mine is 41 pounds

 

[bullcrew]

Still say M6!!!! The M6 is just a bred race machine... Full heritage of proven sibling race bretheren and one of the winningest bike companies going....
I may not agrea with certain aspects of the designs and all the hydroforming but the suspension works and gets the job done... Theres a short lsit Id rock if I could talk the wife into letting me have a few bikes...

2011 Jedi (seen it, Ill definently have it just threw it on there anywase )
Pivot phoenix DH
M6
Superco silencer
V-10
Katipoo

 

[norbar]

Not bashing, but I don't see what makes it better than an Intense besides you deciding to buy it.
Low BB with 83 mm and linear travel were just not for me.

Not for you - thats the differance. What does it make better? Suspension performs better imho - easier to pick it up and more rearward so it behaves better in the rough. Also I said the intenses ride great - they simply have quality issues and as pointed many times they dont last too long(most m6s I know that are ridden hard have waaay to many dents, FRO tubing sucks). So please reading comprehension.

btw. I dont know anyone with a ccdb on a legend but all the ppl that use an rc4 (or bos ) are happy with theirs.

 

[iRider]

Not for you - thats the differance. What does it make better? Suspension performs better imho - easier to pick it up and more rearward so it behaves better in the rough. Also I said the intenses ride great - they simply have quality issues and as pointed many times they dont last too long(most m6s I know that are ridden hard have waaay to many dents, FRO tubing sucks). So please reading comprehension.

You said for the price Intense are really bad. You obviously didn't think so of the Legend. It is 2999 USD for the Legend, same for the M9, same shock on both. One is made in TW, one in the US, one is a proven winner on the WC circus, one not, one designed from a guy that just comes out of college, one from a company that has been around since pretty much the beginning of downhill.
BTW: dunno what you all have with FRO tubing. On one hand you want the lightest bikes possible and on the other you don't want to deal with the consequences this has. Light frames dent, get over it. Everything that you line up at the start of a race has to be considered disposable IMO.

Just for the records: the M3 and M6 were also not for me for various reasons.

 

[norbar]

You said for the price Intense are really bad. You obviously didn't think so of the Legend. It is 2999 USD for the Legend, same for the M9, same shock on both. One is made in TW, one in the US, one is a proven winner on the WC circus, one not, one designed from a guy that just comes out of college, one from a company that has been around since pretty much the beginning of downhill.
BTW: dunno what you all have with FRO tubing. On one hand you want the lightest bikes possible and on the other you don't want to deal with the consequences this has. Light frames dent, get over it. Everything that you line up at the start of a race has to be considered disposable IMO.

Just for the records: the M3 and M6 were also not for me for various reasons.

1. Taiwanese vs US is silly. Ive seen misaligned rears on the m6s, Ive seen how the downtubes dent like hell, the welds look better here. So if you are for quality not for the US is the bestest in the wurld than yeah, banshee is better.
2. Prooven on a wc circut? You suggest that they would not win on a legend or any other frame? Wait they dont win, only some random podiums.
3. So a frame from a qualified engineer with a degree, after extensive prototyping and FEA is bad. So what intense was there since the begining of downhill. Would you buy a khs? They are on the market since long.
4. Lighest frames with fro tubing? 3.8kg w/o shock for the m6 is lighest? My previous frame was 3.5kg w/o shock and it had nearly no dents while some of my friends who ride the same trails as me had their m6 downtubes look quite bad. So yeah light frames dent but m6 is average and there are lighter frames that dont dent nearly as easily.


For me its silly because you dont live in the world of real qualities and facts but nice Badges - intense tells you fro tubing is uber light - you belive, world cup team makes a 10x better bike, taiwan = lower quality - dont even start me on that. Only non tw frames where the quality is a reasonable factor are Nicolai, Docs stuff and Franks.



btw. and m6 was kinda for me - almost bought it when the legend was delayed but not for one of the reasons you point out. I like my bike to be durable and ride good, not to have the smiley medal of e-coolness.

 

[iRider]

For me its silly because you dont live in the world of real qualities and facts but nice Badges - intense tells you fro tubing is uber light - you belive, world cup team makes a 10x better bike, taiwan = lower quality - dont even start me on that. Only non tw frames where the quality is a reasonable factor are Nicolai, Docs stuff and Franks.

FRO tubing IS uber light -> Socom!
And no, not dents on the DT. But I am not as gnar gnar as any of your buddies that dent M6s for breakfast. Maybe you are also not and this is why your Legend has no dents?

 

[norbar]

FRO tubing IS uber light -> Socom!
And no, not dents on the DT. But I am not as gnar gnar as any of your buddies that dent M6s for breakfast. Maybe you are also not and this is why your Legend has no dents?

Yes - on the same trail my tires pick less rocks. Especialy that we use the same tires... I say conspiracy! But seriously - maybe you dont ride on rocky tracks. Im currently at Maribor and 2-3 times a day I hear a large clank. Im pretty sure its not Bootsy Coolins in my downtube. If you ride smoother trails than yeah but Id never choose a bike under 3.5kg. Im not a fast rider but in this rare moments I go fast I tend to be a hack so I dont want to worry about my bike.
Its not that any of the bikes is bad - its that we have different preferances. What I dont like is you trying to bash Keith and the frame as a whole only because I said I dont like your fav company. I would probably have less hate for intense if not for the fanboys that are full of religous zeal for their bikes. Well that and BS marketing. (same reason I dont like Santa, Spec and Ellsworth)


Also about the low bb - no pedal/bash hits for the whole day. Never understood why people have problems with them being low.

 

[Eastwood]

Norbar,
Having owned the M6 for 2 years already I can say that what you've been trying to prove about Intense frames is not really true, to say the least
First, FRO has nothing to do with "uber light" tubing, Intense have stated it several times. It's just some extra welding in critical areas to ensure frame strength, hence some extra weight.
Second, easton tubing is prone to dents, there's no point in denying the obvious. But so are tubes on most modern bikes - I have several friends with dents on their V10's. That's the fair price we all pay for light bikes
Third, as I've already said, I'm a happy owner of M6 frame, which has minor dents on swingarm and on top tube (from fork bumpers). Other from that - only paint scratches. Downtube is OK, your friend must be real monsters

 

[zdubyadubya]

First, FRO has nothing to do with "uber light" tubing, Intense have stated it several times. It's just some extra welding in critical areas to ensure frame strength, hence some extra weight.

I would love to see proof of this. I have read/heard the exact opposite out of Intense's mouth and their press releases as well. FRO stands for "FOR RACE ONLY". "extra weight", hehehehe... don't know who told you that man, but their FRO frames were LIGHTER than their non-FRO counterparts. you make a bike for racing only because it is not designed to withstand daily abuse for multiple seasons.

You look for your proof and I will try to dig up mine...

*edit* taken from warranty agreement, standard intense warranty is 2yrs free of manufacturer defects

Please note that while the Socom FRO receives the same great warranty as our other Intense frames, we stress that the frame is designed for what it is named -- For Race Only.

now why would you include that clause if you weren't afraid of someone like bullcrew (or any other 200 lb+) dh'r ripping your frame a new a$$hole every weekend. i'm not bashing the bike. like norbar and I have said before, they are beautiful machines which perform amazingly. just don't try and label them what they aren't, specifically a bike which can take REPEATED abuse.

still looking for more...

 

[iRider]

Its not that any of the bikes is bad - its that we have different preferances. What I dont like is you trying to bash Keith and the frame as a whole only because I said I dont like your fav company.

You said they are bad for the price they are asking for it, so my point was that you decided on an equally expensive frame that has IMO also some flaws that you were gratefully overlooking. And for the record: I didn't bash Keith, IMO he just hasn't the track record of producing fast/winning bikes yet. Additionally I have naturally a little less respect for people that design bikes and send the blueprints to somewhere else for manufacturing than for companies that do it themselves. But as I stated before, I was really impressed with the bike until I actually had the chance to ride one.

I would probably have less hate for intense if not for the fanboys that are full of religous zeal for their bikes.

You hate a brand because of the people that ride them or the marketing BS??? You are not better than any fanboy, just with a negative attitude.

Also about the low bb - no pedal/bash hits for the whole day. Never understood why people have problems with them being low.

Some people like to pedal maybe?

 

[iRider]

now why would you include that clause if you weren't afraid of someone like bullcrew (or any other 200 lb+) dh'r ripping your frame a new a$$hole every weekend. i'm not bashing the bike. like norbar and I have said before, they are beautiful machines which perform amazingly. just don't try and label them what they aren't, specifically a bike which can take REPEATED abuse.

Just some things to consider:
-Why does someone that is 200 lb + wants to ride a superlight frame in the first place? Know yourself and your riding style!
-Why do you think everybody should ride a durable and heavier bike? Bike weight should be proportional to body weight, so lighter rider, lighter bike.
-Choice is good! There should be plow bikes and uber light DH bikes with different geometries (or adjustable) so everybody can be happy.

This is why it doesn't make sense to bash on companies that make pure race bred material available for the privateer IMO.

 

[eater]

i have to say only this: cove shocker is the best dh bike since 2006 no hipe no casing,
with or without lower dropouts!! 8.5inch rear with 35% sag is deeper than any other bike!!
i can buy any other bike if i want, intense demo jedy banshee but no interest!
you now way?? because the shocker is the best!

 

[norbar]

Just some things to consider:
-Why does someone that is 200 lb + wants to ride a superlight frame in the first place? Know yourself and your riding style!
-Why do you think everybody should ride a durable and heavier bike? Bike weight should be proportional to body weight, so lighter rider, lighter bike.
-Choice is good! There should be plow bikes and uber light DH bikes with different geometries (or adjustable) so everybody can be happy.

This is why it doesn't make sense to bash on companies that make pure race bred material available for the privateer IMO.

Man you have serious problems with reading comprehension. Im not saying that everyone should ride a light or heavy frame. I only stated that its a good frame and I like it for its burlyness. Its also not that heavy as its only 200g heavier than an m6 and it has a lighter shock so in the end they will be pretty close

Also I dont bash intense and I my dislike for them is not for the socom. I stated numerous times here already that I dont like how soft the tubing is on the m6 (read again, not your bike m6 - read that like 5times to memorise because for some strange reason you cant). That frame is around the weight of the legend and has much softer tubing. From what other users say - other frames share the same problem and the only frame with low enough weight to justify it is the socom.

Seriously I dont see a point in keeping this discussion up as apparently you dont read what Im saying and instead look for reasons to hate me for not linking intense and bash me back because if I dont like your frame you have to hate mine. Funny.


btw. Legend is not a plow bike - not every bike that has avg. weight is a plow bike.

 

[iRider]

Man you have serious problems with reading comprehension.

With this argument ......






....you win....







.....I guess?

 

[roel_koel]

something to consider comparing US made vs. TW made frames

most US made frames are 6xxx aluminium alloys (including Easton and Worth tubes), unless the bike co. has specifically imported a tubeset from TW, for domestic fabrication

most TW made frames are 7xxx aluminium alloys (apart from low end frames / bikes)

compare the properties of both these alloy groups, the 7xxx takes the win in every category including strength, toughness, fatigue life

frame made from 7075 will always be stronger / tougher than same frame made from 6061