now what?
Anyone carry a gun while trail building alone?
- Thread starter BmxConvert
- Start date
now what?
I guess i should have added "without a lot of practice"
I have no issues hitting targets
Cons:
-Costs money
-Might not have time to use it on wildlife
-Sucks to carry around
-Other trail users will probably freak out when they see a dude packing a holster in the middle of nowhere and call the ranger to bust your trail building.
Pros:
-If you get bored, you get to shoot sh!t.
I'd say buy one.
+1
+ 1 for no gun...a 9mm against a cougar? No. You will spend more time fumbling w/ it and trying to defeat your own adrenaline. Make alot of noise, be big and swing things. If you encounter a cougar, be big and make noise.
Also, on the common sense side, dont build alone. Problem (almost) solved.
Also, on the common sense side, dont build alone. Problem (almost) solved.
When I am out in the woods on my own, be it hiking, riding, fingering trees, I carry a Glock 29 in the 10mm caliber.
10mm was built to hunt boars with, it does the job, or so my hero Terrible Ted Nugent would tell me.
10mm was built to hunt boars with, it does the job, or so my hero Terrible Ted Nugent would tell me.
BmxConvert,
The 9mm vs. .40 vs. .45 argument will never stop and it's all pretty much hyperbole. Fact is, no matter what the caliber, a pistol is not going to do jack squat to protect you against wildlife.
I happened to go on one trail work session carrying - one of my buds noticed and it was a distraction because all the boys wanted to look at the toy and a pistol loaded with hollow points is not exactly something that should be passed around casually.
No matter what you might get, you would have a grand into it by the time you have the weapon, holster(s), magazines, cleaning, equipment, maybe a gun safe. You're better off buying bicycle parts or trail tools.
J
The 9mm vs. .40 vs. .45 argument will never stop and it's all pretty much hyperbole. Fact is, no matter what the caliber, a pistol is not going to do jack squat to protect you against wildlife.
I happened to go on one trail work session carrying - one of my buds noticed and it was a distraction because all the boys wanted to look at the toy and a pistol loaded with hollow points is not exactly something that should be passed around casually.
No matter what you might get, you would have a grand into it by the time you have the weapon, holster(s), magazines, cleaning, equipment, maybe a gun safe. You're better off buying bicycle parts or trail tools.
J
I go here for practice. About 15 minutes from my house on the highway.
http://www.usshootingacademy.com/Default.aspx
Watch the promo video... its a freaking amazing place if you like to shoot.
Thats a bit extreme on the price there.
Ruger P95 (new) with 2 mags = $350
Inexpensize nylon holster = $30
Hoppes Field Kit = $30 + $5 for the attachment for 9mm
Small Gunsafe = $50
200 rounds white box to break in a bit = $30
25 rounds of good protection ammo = $25
$50 hooker = $50
Total: $600 (and I allowed for a $50 hooker to alleviate some of the buyers remorse)
BTW, what were you doing at the trailhead with your gun out in plain sight. Open carry allowed in your state?
9mm not take out a cougar? What kind of body armor is it wearing?
Yeah.
Vermont.
Open carry? Check.
Concealed carry? Check.
Permit required? No.
Act responsibly or have the law all over you? Check.
I suppose I should comment that my trails are on private land. There are no trail heads. Yes there are trails out there but I'm a significant distance from them. I'm primarily building dirt jump trails where I will be in one secluded area for hours on end.
If I waited until I had a partner to build with, I'd either never get to ride or never get anything built.
I'm still not sold on the idea of the gun and I'm still researching the subject. I appreciate the feed back so far.
If I waited until I had a partner to build with, I'd either never get to ride or never get anything built.
I'm still not sold on the idea of the gun and I'm still researching the subject. I appreciate the feed back so far.
I don't know if this has been said already but...
Cougars, mountain lions are animals you never run away from them because they will track you down and attack you if they think you're a prey. If you do run you'll probablybe seriously injured/killed. What'cha wanna do is make yourself as big as possible looking. The bigger you look, the more intimidating you look. Especially to animals. Bears pretty much do the same sheeeeet when they stand up on their rear legs. Lift your arms over your head, flap up around, yell. Be intimidating. If it is just chillin' and not being aggressive, just make yourself look intimidating and it'll probably go away. If it's aggressive, pick up some rocks but don't turn your back to it and don't make it seem like you're an easy target. Pick some rocks up with one hand and have the other flapping around. If it doesn't go away once you have the rocks, start chuckin' 'em in it's direction while making noise and moving your arms. Eventually it will go away. If you're building out on a trail you'll probably have tools. Make noise with them, wave them around etc.
I guess Cub Scouts was pretty useful after all
Cougars, mountain lions are animals you never run away from them because they will track you down and attack you if they think you're a prey. If you do run you'll probablybe seriously injured/killed. What'cha wanna do is make yourself as big as possible looking. The bigger you look, the more intimidating you look. Especially to animals. Bears pretty much do the same sheeeeet when they stand up on their rear legs. Lift your arms over your head, flap up around, yell. Be intimidating. If it is just chillin' and not being aggressive, just make yourself look intimidating and it'll probably go away. If it's aggressive, pick up some rocks but don't turn your back to it and don't make it seem like you're an easy target. Pick some rocks up with one hand and have the other flapping around. If it doesn't go away once you have the rocks, start chuckin' 'em in it's direction while making noise and moving your arms. Eventually it will go away. If you're building out on a trail you'll probably have tools. Make noise with them, wave them around etc.
I guess Cub Scouts was pretty useful after all
If you're actually in a place where there are dangerous animals, I'd go first with chest-mounted bear spray--the kind designed to be operated while you're on the ground being mauled.
If a gun were in order, I'd carry a large-caliber (44 mag+), lightweight-framed revolver with a short-ish barrel as a backup, probably in a side-of-the-chest wilderness rig. (This is directly opposite the advice I'd give concerning carry for self-defense against humans, mind you...) If you're being attacked by an animal and it's got you down, you don't want an automatic which won't fire in a contact-shot situation when you're desperate and pushing it against the animal's body, taking the slide out of battery. And caliber, which in the 9mm+ range ceases to matter on a human, does matter with the penetration of heavy muscle and bone you'd find on a big critter. Recoil and control? Not an issue when you're dealing with a close-up encounter within arm's distance, and in a panic situation. Reloads? Not gonna get a chance--might as well use the revo (which is normally a liability in a two-way shooting situation...) Animals aren't my specialty, but that's my reasoning.
But outside of, say, Alaska or remote Canada, maybe the American Rockies or really remote places in the Sierras, I wouldn't be too worried about large animals to this extent myself.
Mostly an academic exercise in thinking about this. I'd just carry my Pulaski...
If a gun were in order, I'd carry a large-caliber (44 mag+), lightweight-framed revolver with a short-ish barrel as a backup, probably in a side-of-the-chest wilderness rig. (This is directly opposite the advice I'd give concerning carry for self-defense against humans, mind you...) If you're being attacked by an animal and it's got you down, you don't want an automatic which won't fire in a contact-shot situation when you're desperate and pushing it against the animal's body, taking the slide out of battery. And caliber, which in the 9mm+ range ceases to matter on a human, does matter with the penetration of heavy muscle and bone you'd find on a big critter. Recoil and control? Not an issue when you're dealing with a close-up encounter within arm's distance, and in a panic situation. Reloads? Not gonna get a chance--might as well use the revo (which is normally a liability in a two-way shooting situation...) Animals aren't my specialty, but that's my reasoning.
But outside of, say, Alaska or remote Canada, maybe the American Rockies or really remote places in the Sierras, I wouldn't be too worried about large animals to this extent myself.
Mostly an academic exercise in thinking about this. I'd just carry my Pulaski...
Revolver is definitely not off the list. I'm leaning more towards having a gun and it being the last option.
I picked up a can of bear mace from the shop I work at and will hang that off my belt for now.
I would imagine any situation would go down like this..
I'm working away when I hear some underbrush crackling and popping(it's really dense where I'm working) and I scan the are a bit(including trees) see nothing, make a bunch of noise/wave tools in every direction, toot my horn, yell. If the cougar/animal is still around and I happen to see it, of course I will continue to make noise, be big, pee my pants while remaining calm. The part the scares me is as the cougar walks away, I'll of course watch it till I can no longer see it, but if I return to work and get attacked from behind... I'm pretty much screwed. I do still like the idea of a belt mounted hatchet as well, but i would imagine removing that from a "holster" of sorts would also be difficult.
How often do people get attacked by cougars or any other animal where you live? Is this actually a legitimate problem? Maybe consider flares or a flare gun. fire pretty much scares the sh!t out of any animal.
I'm not really sure you should be counting on hearing anything, no matter how dense it is were you are.
I myself had 3 cougars(at a full sprint) cross my path while riding this last year. I've only rode 8 of the months due to a blown knee. That doesn't include the sightings of cougars where I saw the cougar but the cougar didn't see me.
We've had a few bear sightings, but not anywhere close to where I am building.
The woods are pretty remote and there aren't many people out there. After all its quite a drive outside of town. The towns population is sub 2500 people any way.
Fire is NOT an option. I get shut out of the woods most summers in late july/early august as it is anyway due to fire hazard. I'm not about to get my access denied by playing with fire.
I'm not counting on hearing anything. But when I do hear crackling and popping and the likes... I still look around.
Get a sig.357 ACP - I was shooting one the other day and it was SO loud that you would probably scare off said animal, or scare yourself enough to the point where you shunt your pants making yourself grossly unappealing to a predatory animal that wants to eat you.
In all seriousness though, .380 micro carries are nice, but ammo is hard to find and not necessarily cheap. 9mm is going to be the cheapest and in my thought process, cheapest = more practice = good thing.
I also completely agree with what JBP said about the argument of knockdown power vs. shots on target argument. Which round is best? The one that hits your target. This site will show you some ballistic details about stopping power if you're really interested in that sort of thing. http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp
I'm not sure what your experience with carrying, but I would invest as much, if not more $ in training. Not shooting technique solely, but defensive techniques so you know how to appropriately react.
In all seriousness though, .380 micro carries are nice, but ammo is hard to find and not necessarily cheap. 9mm is going to be the cheapest and in my thought process, cheapest = more practice = good thing.
I also completely agree with what JBP said about the argument of knockdown power vs. shots on target argument. Which round is best? The one that hits your target. This site will show you some ballistic details about stopping power if you're really interested in that sort of thing. http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp
I'm not sure what your experience with carrying, but I would invest as much, if not more $ in training. Not shooting technique solely, but defensive techniques so you know how to appropriately react.
How bout investing on a goat. Tie it up near where you're building. Heck it'll even clear out some brush if you need it too. Don't even need to feed it, just let it loose in your neighbor's back yard.
In case of bear or cougar, it'll make noise and most likely get crunched on first thus giving you time to escape.
Unless you're quick draw McGraw and have the accuracy of Robocop a gun may not help you at all. You could possibly only have 2-5 seconds to draw, acquire, and fire before you're lunch meat... or dinner depending on the time of day.
I've came upon a hiker once who had one of these clipped to his shoulder strap.
The trigger piece (thing on the right side) was velcro'd on to the main unit and had a lanyard that he could pull on in case of emergency. He pulled it to demonstrate and even at 10 yards, the noise was so ear piercingly high and loud that it really hurt my ears. His reasoning was that if it hurt humans so much, how much more would it hurt animals with super sensative hearing like a dog, bear, or mtn. lion.
Made sense to me.
In case of bear or cougar, it'll make noise and most likely get crunched on first thus giving you time to escape.
Unless you're quick draw McGraw and have the accuracy of Robocop a gun may not help you at all. You could possibly only have 2-5 seconds to draw, acquire, and fire before you're lunch meat... or dinner depending on the time of day.
I've came upon a hiker once who had one of these clipped to his shoulder strap.
The trigger piece (thing on the right side) was velcro'd on to the main unit and had a lanyard that he could pull on in case of emergency. He pulled it to demonstrate and even at 10 yards, the noise was so ear piercingly high and loud that it really hurt my ears. His reasoning was that if it hurt humans so much, how much more would it hurt animals with super sensative hearing like a dog, bear, or mtn. lion.
Made sense to me.
As much as I hate to tell someone to not buy a gun...
This ain't the situation that dictates it.
Cougars are ambush predators. They attack by charging from behind and biting your throat to crush your windpipe and sever your spine.
Snap shooting a 150 pound cat that's charging at a speed of about 30mph would be, well, the stuff of African hunting legends.
Evidence is scarce because attacks are pretty rare (less than 100 documented in the last 100+ years) but in general most attacks are against kids who became separated from their groups... Small, single, easy prey.
Bear mace ain't such a good plan, either. Bears are foragers and many have come to associate humans as a source of food, not food themselves. They are known to slowly approach humans and be sorta standoffish, which is a perfect opportunity for bear mace.
Cougars are not going to expose themselves to you like that if they regard you as prey. They will silently approach and you aren't going to hear it until you're a second away from a cat on your back.
Realistically, I'm probably not going to waste time trying to draw a gun while a big cat has it's teeth in my neck. If I did I'd be a little worried that I might shoot myself while in the clinch.
The old trick of putting your backpack on your head to look bigger probably isn't going to work for a cat. Bears have poor eyesight, so it makes you look like a larger animal. Cats have excellent eyesight so it makes you look like a douchebag with a backpack on your head.
If attacked, try to get whatever tool is in your hands between you and the charging cat. Hit it in the face until it leaves you alone. They aren't knock-down drag-out fighters - if they can't subdue you quick they're going to find something else to eat.
This ain't the situation that dictates it.
Cougars are ambush predators. They attack by charging from behind and biting your throat to crush your windpipe and sever your spine.
Snap shooting a 150 pound cat that's charging at a speed of about 30mph would be, well, the stuff of African hunting legends.
Evidence is scarce because attacks are pretty rare (less than 100 documented in the last 100+ years) but in general most attacks are against kids who became separated from their groups... Small, single, easy prey.
Bear mace ain't such a good plan, either. Bears are foragers and many have come to associate humans as a source of food, not food themselves. They are known to slowly approach humans and be sorta standoffish, which is a perfect opportunity for bear mace.
Cougars are not going to expose themselves to you like that if they regard you as prey. They will silently approach and you aren't going to hear it until you're a second away from a cat on your back.
Realistically, I'm probably not going to waste time trying to draw a gun while a big cat has it's teeth in my neck. If I did I'd be a little worried that I might shoot myself while in the clinch.
C'mon, dude! It's a feral cat. Just because it didn't pay you any mind does NOT mean it didn't know you were there.
Do that. Make some noise, too. Blow a whistle. Clang some tools together. Assume the "Fvck you, I'm an anteater!" stance and scream like an ape.
The old trick of putting your backpack on your head to look bigger probably isn't going to work for a cat. Bears have poor eyesight, so it makes you look like a larger animal. Cats have excellent eyesight so it makes you look like a douchebag with a backpack on your head.
If attacked, try to get whatever tool is in your hands between you and the charging cat. Hit it in the face until it leaves you alone. They aren't knock-down drag-out fighters - if they can't subdue you quick they're going to find something else to eat.
Just wear a spiked collar.
^ Best advice in this thread.
If you're holding a shovel, you're going to have to drop it before you can reach your gun. By this time the cougar is too close to draw, aim, and shoot. Now you've given up on grabbing your gun and have your hands up over your face while you get eaten. Do what the Marines do, use the shovel. The sharp edge of an entrenching tool (shovel), will leave a nasty cut.
or just keep a grenade in your shovel.
I don't understand why nobody ever wants to go digging with me...?
Don't get me wrong, I'm just as pro gun as you can get so long as it's for the right reasons. Buying a gun to protect from a possible cougar attack isn't one of them. I took some of those SIG Arms pistol and practical use classes in VA and one of the biggest things the instructors drill into your head is that a gun isn't always the best or most effective tool for defense, espeically against fast moving predatory animals.
I carry one of those personal body alarms that ultraNoob was talking about. This one actually:
It has 140db of constant ear splitting shrill ass noise. My dog runs at the mere sight of me clipping it to the shoulder strap of my camelback. I came across a bobcat munching on a rabbit last month and it hissed at me and did one of those Don't Eff With Me swipes. Guess it thought I wanted the rabbit. I pulled the chain and it took off with a quickness without the rabbit.
Dogs in the neighborhood don't bark at me anymore cuz the've associated me with auditory pain.
I carry one of those personal body alarms that ultraNoob was talking about. This one actually:
It has 140db of constant ear splitting shrill ass noise. My dog runs at the mere sight of me clipping it to the shoulder strap of my camelback. I came across a bobcat munching on a rabbit last month and it hissed at me and did one of those Don't Eff With Me swipes. Guess it thought I wanted the rabbit. I pulled the chain and it took off with a quickness without the rabbit.
Dogs in the neighborhood don't bark at me anymore cuz the've associated me with auditory pain.
I spent two months working in the backcountry of Yellowstone and we saw lots of grizzlies and bison and wolves. We were charged by a buffalo and got real close to some bears and wolves.
I quickly learned that guns aren't something I want to trust in when animals are involved. Mace on the other hand is the best option in my opinion. Stops animals in their tracks. Doesn't wound or kill them. win win.
I quickly learned that guns aren't something I want to trust in when animals are involved. Mace on the other hand is the best option in my opinion. Stops animals in their tracks. Doesn't wound or kill them. win win.
Right... dont even bother carrying a gun cause you wont be able to pull it in time... 0_o
Dumbest logic ever... do you have a spare tire in your car? A fire extinguisher in your home?
Dumbest logic ever... do you have a spare tire in your car? A fire extinguisher in your home?
You said it champ.
we need to solve this Myth Busters style.
Let's get JacobDW a 1911 and set him off to do some trail building in the PNW. Just for good measure, we'll strap a some pork chops on his back. We'll make sure he's wearing work gloves. At a random moment (when he's all into building and has his back to us), we'll release the Mountain Lion. BTW.. MtLion hasn't eaten in 3 days.
We'll repeat this method with a can of bear repellent, an audible alarm, and just a shovel. What say ye?
no But i have carried a baseball bat
uhhhhh Id rather have my glock... but you can practice a double feed malf with your 1911 during an attack if you want... knock yourself out dude!
I know a few guys in the Wa State area that carry pistols Due to stumbling on meth labs in the woods. Anyone else have this happen ?
Generally you're not expected to climb in your trunk and bust out the spare in .3 seconds to survive.
But, whatever...keep on failing at analogies.
In an effort to contribute to the thread/OP: You sound like a guy who had a childhood with a mom who bonded you in bubblewrap from an early age. Grow a pair, learn to swing a pulaski/pull a catrape whistle chain. You've probably got a better chance of accidentally breaking your femur and dying from an arterial bleed while trailbuilding out there alone and a whole 30 minutes from other humans.
99 times out of 100, a firearm is not going to save you from a cat attack for reasons that have already been iterated in this thread. You keep saying you're not looking for a reason to justify owning a handgun, but it certainly sounds like you are. Hell, even the pulaski and various other methods probably aren't going to save your ass if you're not immediately neutralized - it's kind of one of the facts of life in a semi-remote spot.
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Have you considered a dynamite vest?