[maxyedor]

Just to clear the air, pardon the pun, about the Tornado here is the long and the short of it. Staightening air really does work. It makes cars run better and more efficiently. Now the Tornado does nothing, why you may ask? Because all modern cars have straighteners built into the M.A.F. so what you are doing is straightening the air, then putting it through a straightener when you use the Tornado, so while the science behind it is accurate, the practical application is bogus. As for heating gas, the only thing I can think of is that it becomes less dense and thus less fuel actually gets to the engine at any given time, but you would lose power and thus also lose MPG. I vote bogus. If you really want to get crafty, buy gas at 2:00 A.M. as it is more dense and you will get slightly more for your money. Rodger Pensky used to do this so he could fit more gas into the tank, when tank size is limited.

 

[Toshi]

"straightening the air"? what in god's name are you talking about? the device introduces a restriction and creates turbulence. turbulent flow is inefficient. end. of. story.

 

[justsomeguy]

Lab VS real world

In other words, Theory and reality. I have run the DYno test on a bunch of differnt stuff, And while you might see Slight changes, 95% Were not enough to be noticable when driving the car, other than the sound.

So according to you, 5% are noticeable. Great, we agree, although I don't know if the 5% figure that you pulled out of your a$$ is the right figure.

My point was that every car does not need to be reprogrammed (as you claimed) in order to realize benefits from a denser intake charge.

 

[ALEXIS_DH]

There is a guy here who just dropped $70 on a device to heat your gasoline before it hits the engine. Supposedly it creates more vapor with increases MPG.

It sounds like a load of crap to me, but has anyone heard of this?

the only scenario i´d think it would help to improve mpg (actually kinda neglible even then) would be only in a carburated engine in cold weather in the few minutes it takes to warm up.

so for 99.99% of applications and driving condition, is snake oil.

 

[maxyedor]

"straightening the air"? what in god's name are you talking about? the device introduces a restriction and creates turbulence. turbulent flow is inefficient. end. of. story.

Actually they are designed to take the turbulent air, and make it flow straight. It is designed to make the air less turbulent and more efficient. Same reason people swear by the cone shaped air filter.

 

[Toshi]

i am willing to bet that there are little vortices (ie, turbulence) coming off the back of each of those tornado "fins"... whatever it was "designed" to do, the popular mechanics test shows pretty definitively that it doesn't.

 

[T-Dog]

I know teh device your speaking of, Ford tried to have one of them as a factory add on. We in teh industry replace them with a Plain spacer. What people dont realize is that once your Air and fuel are inside the manifold the tempurature no longer matters. The heat you get off your Injectors and Valve train is mroe than Adequate to Vaporize your fuel completly, As far as teh Air, once it passes teh Throttle body, Your air charge is Set, Its your Pre-throttle bodt temp you want to make sure to keep cooler. I love seeing these Cool air intakes on cars. They dont really do anything except make the car sound cool, that is untill you change your manifold and reprogram you Vehicle to work on teh new parameters. There are Lots of idea out there that give teh Perception of more power, and the percecption of More milage, but fact is that it is only perception. Example for you, a K+N air filter, supposed to be higher flow right??? Try again, While teh filter itself can allow more air to move, the rest or your intake system still has its limit, which teh factory Air filter was already more than adequate to Supply. 98% of vehicle have a restricter Built right into the throttle Bodies nowadays, limiting them to a max of 75 - 90% Max airflow. Dont change that, Then it doesnt matter how Trick your COld air system is, Or fuel heaters or anything like that.

Fact, a Hot Engine runs best, 200 Degrees running temp is the best target for the most performance and Reliability. Older engines this was a Problem do to Vapor lock. But with Fuel injection the problem of vaporlocking solved itself. /quote

Are you talking about the plate under the carb witht coolant passages on older Fords? That didn't heat the fuel, it was part of the egr system (note it had a vacuum-operated egr valve attached to the back of it, and exhaust passages.)

You could always drive your pickup with the tailgate down to increase mileage. Oh, wait the mythbusters disproved that one too.

http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2005/11/episode_43_seasickness_cures_f.html

 

[pixelninja]

I can, Call up Ford or Chrysler on that K+N and ask them why when you install one they will not touch your engine and completely Void your warranty on your engine. K+N's are sticky, they Catch light dust. They are a racing application the Filter itself is quite a higher Micron filter, without the Oil it can barely catch a Bee in it, A standard paper filter already doesnt performe its best untill about 50% of its life.

Dont forget that the Oil on the K+N comes of and sticks to Important Sensors, Like your Mass Air flow and Intake Air temp sensors. Giving the Vehicle a Falsew reading, and then Effectivly Dropping your Milage!!! You can belive me or not about the Milage, But I will tell you from first hand expirence, i have had to replace a ton of Maf's from Oil contamintation off of Oil type Air filters. Newer fords and chryslers have it Printed right on the Air filter box "DRY FILTER ONLY" for a reason.

Thanks. After looking through the link that justsomeguy posted, I am indeed leary of continuing to use the K&N filter I have. I have a trip to Moab planned for the last weekend in April. I think I'll switch out the K&N for a paper filter and see what kind of gas mileage I get.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Thanks. After looking through the link that justsomeguy posted, I am indeed leary of continuing to use the K&N filter I have. I have a trip to Moab planned for the last weekend in April. I think I'll switch out the K&N for a paper filter and see what kind of gas mileage I get.

I ditched my K&N and went back to the Toyota filters several years ago.

 

[Wumpus]

Actually they are designed to take the turbulent air, and make it flow straight. It is designed to make the air less turbulent and more efficient. Same reason people swear by the cone shaped air filter.

From their own website:

Install the TornadoFuelSaver fuel saving device in the air-intake of your vehicle for better gas mileage and increased horsepower!

The TornadoFuelSaver is an automotive air channeling tool that creates a swirling air motion, allowing the air to move faster and more efficiently by continuously whirling air around corners and bends.

http://www.tornadofuelsaver.com/info/

By swirling the air you are creating turbulences. Which can't be good at all:

The behavior of fluid articles within a flow stream characterized by the rapid movement of particles in many directions as well as the general direction of the overall fluid flow.

 

[DirtyMike]

Lol, beating a dead horse now, But i just saw the Coolest Demo From Wix, Live right in front of my eyes. My rep had that cool K+N filter Demo box with him, ya know the one with the Fan and a slot for a couple filters to be placed in and you can see the Air flow increase. Well The wix guy added a couple Dirty chalk board erasers, Guess what, teh K+N Didnt even get Dirty at all, you can see teh Chalk go right through it and out the top of the display when you clap them together in front of it. Seeing is beliving on that one


No i am not talking about the ford plate that had the coolant in it, Ford had for a while An electric Fuel/air heater underneath there 2 barrel carbs. The TSB from ford gives you a part number for a kit that has a Spacer plate and a Sensor Bypass plug. To eliminate the heater.


Hey JSG, i didnt Pull that number out of my ass, that was from Ford direct. And Yes All will need retuning in teh Comp. There is a difference between Density, and Volume. All vehicles that Use a Mass air flow meter Will compensate for density, right behind the MaF is a Intake Air temp sensor, That figures teh Density, But once you change your MAX volume, Your Three total sensorts needed to figure your FUel stragtegy no longer Coincide with each other. Those three are Mass air flow, Intake temp, and Throttle Postion. On An obd2 Vehicle, when the Inputs from those three sensors no longer Coincide, the computer uses a calulated Value and substitues it in the place of the real reading. Here is what gets people to think other wize, The reading on a scan tool will be the Substitued Value, not what the sensor is actually doing, to see what the sensor is doing you need to Go directly to the source with a Lab scope and watch it in real time. This is what i do All day long, Also what i went to school for. When you retune the vehicle, Your telling it to use the Real numbers, and not to substitute with estimated values to make the New installed system Match what it originally was intended to do. If you dont belive, your welcome to come visit and read the text straight out of my School books i still have on my shelf.

 

[DirtyMike]

Exactly, a lot of the drag racers used cool cans back in the 70's.

Yes they did, Also note that was back when you had a 13lb fuel pressure system, Fuel injection averages 40- 70 lbs. Keeping the fuel from Boiling do to increased pressure, same as your radiator does

 

[DirtyMike]

Just to clear the air, pardon the pun, about the Tornado here is the long and the short of it. Staightening air really does work. It makes cars run better and more efficiently. Now the Tornado does nothing, why you may ask? Because all modern cars have straighteners built into the M.A.F. so what you are doing is straightening the air, then putting it through a straightener when you use the Tornado, so while the science behind it is accurate, the practical application is bogus. As for heating gas, the only thing I can think of is that it becomes less dense and thus less fuel actually gets to the engine at any given time, but you would lose power and thus also lose MPG. I vote bogus. If you really want to get crafty, buy gas at 2:00 A.M. as it is more dense and you will get slightly more for your money. Rodger Pensky used to do this so he could fit more gas into the tank, when tank size is limited.

Woot we have a winner, The Baffles<Straighteners> Are Also inside the manifold, The turbulance created By the Tornado does nothing except slow down your air flow, 99% of cars today Have the injector placed Right at the Valve, Meaning by the time the air gets there, is it Moving in teh exact path originally intended By the designers Anyways. Meaning no extra atomization from the So called extra turbulance

 

[justsomeguy]

And Yes All will need retuning in teh Comp.

If that's the case, then how is the vehicle making more power, without retuning the ECU?

Perhaps you aren't considering vehicles that use FI.

 

[T-Dog]

No i am not talking about the ford plate that had the coolant in it, Ford had for a while An electric Fuel/air heater underneath there 2 barrel carbs. The TSB from ford gives you a part number for a kit that has a Spacer plate and a Sensor Bypass plug. To eliminate the heater.

Yeah, GM had that heated grid under some of the TBI systems, it's part of the Early evaporation system which is designed to reduce emissions when the engine's cold. It's supposed to only work on startup, and to shut off when the engine warms up....if they stay on and keep heating the mixture, fuel economy is worse.

 

[spookydave]

Yes they did, Also note that was back when you had a 13lb fuel pressure system, Fuel injection averages 40- 70 lbs. Keeping the fuel from Boiling do to increased pressure, same as your radiator does

Cool fuel is more dense the hot fuel. The injection system we run (Enderly Birdcatcher) gets about 300 psi at 8,800 rpm. Of course any time when you increase pressure you also increase heat. But that's why we use the cool tubes & dry ice right in the 3 gal fuel tank. We want to start off with it as cold as we can. It helps when you run right on the ragged edge in the 100 degree heat at Bakerfield.
Cool cans would not work for us due to size and weight. We run a -12AN (3/4") hose from the tank to the pump. That would be a big cool can.

So who's dyno are you using out in the Yucaipa area?

 

[Sir_Crackien]

the thing i have the say about the test that the one person link is it you look at teh amount of dirt the is delivered to the filter it is insane. the units are in grams per sec!!!. and they are in the 100's to close to a 1000gms. i would say that is a very inrelistic test. also look in the first graph they show it in a way that make and deviation look crazy. that say that the K&N is over 97% effecant. that AC delco is crazy good though for dust but then look at the flow rate. it is by far the lowests.

that test is a great it you want to learn about scewed representation1

 

[DirtyMike]

Yeah, GM had that heated grid under some of the TBI systems, it's part of the Early evaporation system which is designed to reduce emissions when the engine's cold. It's supposed to only work on startup, and to shut off when the engine warms up....if they stay on and keep heating the mixture, fuel economy is worse.

Exactly, That was the Trouble with them, The relays would Burn out and Fuse the Contants together, . Which is why they just get rid of them once they do that. They also had an issue with Carbon Building up on them and Well, we can all see where that is going. On teh GM's You simply Remove the Grid and your done, But on the Ford<Originator of this idea> You needed a little more, Like teh plate and Sensor Imitator

 

[DirtyMike]

Cool fuel is more dense the hot fuel. The injection system we run (Enderly Birdcatcher) gets about 300 psi at 8,800 rpm. Of course any time when you increase pressure you also increase heat. But that's why we use the cool tubes & dry ice right in the 3 gal fuel tank. We want to start off with it as cold as we can. It helps when you run right on the ragged edge in the 100 degree heat at Bakerfield.
Cool cans would not work for us due to size and weight. We run a -12AN (3/4") hose from the tank to the pump. That would be a big cool can.

So who's dyno are you using out in the Yucaipa area?

Yeah ok, Ill agree with this, But your talking a 1/4 Runner, where Perfection means a win. Nice System By the way, But on a street car your not going to see a difference like you would on the track.

Dyno test Were while i was still in school, I got to see first hand differences During the performance classes some of the So called Improvements and after market Add ons.

 

[DirtyMike]

If that's the case, then how is the vehicle making more power, without retuning the ECU?

Perhaps you aren't considering vehicles that use FI.

Maybe you missed the Part of "This is what i do for a Living Day in and day out", Just curious what do you do??? You have any training, Real training in this feild??? I hold two degree's in the Feild. Or is it simply you like to Argue with 4/5 posts you make. In an answer to your Question, i AM talking about FI. Re read the Part where i said OBD2. All Obd 2 is FI. Now reason you start seeing a Small, i mean small increase, Is because Obd2 Vehicle Default Lean to protect the Catalytic Converter. When a vehicle runs lean More heat stays inside teh Cylinder and head than into the exhaust.

Now lets add in all these Bolt on Performance parts, Will teh injectors on teh car Provide sufficeint flow of fuel to match??? Who knows, All cars are different.

ZO6 Corvette, Fast car right, can it be faster? Hell yes, Will it get faster by adding a cold air intake, or a Larger Induction tube??? NO, Why? Because the Corvette, Like teh CAmaro's Stock throttle Body is Limited at the factory to 80% opening MAX. Built right into the Casting of the TB itself, Can it be changed??? Yes, The Throttle body should be your First step on those particular Engines, I cant remember the Company name off hand, but they sell through Ebay, a TB for the LS series Motors, that has been Milled at teh Throttle stop, and Redrilled for the TPS. Now the other Induction systems will make Lots of Difference. But Now your TPS sweep and Mass Air flow Are Off, Retuning is Vital to keep that motor from Running overly lean and Burning a Whole in the Piston.

That whole example there is to show you it isnt Just one or two or three parts that are going to make the difference, Its teh whole package. Same as OBD1 GM cars, Put in a 160 Stat instead of the 195, More power??? Yeah a little, Why, that system Richened the Mix to Warm the Car up faster. As the Industry found, that meant Premature Cat failure.

 

[spookydave]

Yeah ok, Ill agree with this, But your talking a 1/4 Runner, where Perfection means a win. Nice System By the way, But on a street car your not going to see a difference like you would on the track.

Dyno test Were while i was still in school, I got to see first hand differences During the performance classes some of the So called Improvements and after market Add ons.

But the relationships are the same. Just in smaller amounts.
I agree with some of the after market stuff. A good friend of mine owns RD Dyno in Gardena. AEM does tons of testing on all their products there. I'm not into the imports really but I do love AEM because they test what they sell. Their cold air intakes do help. And for the same reason, gets it away from that heat under the hood. Cold air is more dense, that will require more fuel and result in more power.

I get guys in here with what they call street cars. Now granted it's not a shuttle truck or a mall runner. But these guys are after every edge they can get. little here and a little there add up to a good street fighter.

 

[DirtyMike]

Yeah Smaller amounts indeed. One of the Regulations of OBD2 was Fuel temp sensors in the tank, to Help the Vehicles Fine tuning along. Liek i said Earlier, I am not Saying they are an Absolute No work, Just not when used alone. You cant just swap out an air filter to make more Power, you have to make the Intake system have the ABility to Use the additional availability of air

 

[justsomeguy]

Maybe you missed the Part of "This is what i do for a Living Day in and day out", Just curious what do you do??? You have any training, Real training in this feild??? I hold two degree's in the Feild. Or is it simply you like to Argue with 4/5 posts you make.

I am asking you a question because what you are claiming does not match my experience. If it twists your panties too much you don't have to answer.

In an answer to your Question, i AM talking about FI. Re read the Part where i said OBD2. All Obd 2 is FI.

FI is also commonly used as an abbreviation of "forced induction" and is how I used it.

Again, here's my question:

"how is the vehicle making more power, without retuning the ECU?"

You claim that the computer needs to be retuned. I know that it doesn't, on some cars.

 

[spookydave]

I hear ya man.

Check this out, air straightner and an air compressor side by side. lol

 

[spookydave]

FI is also commonly used as an abbreviation of "forced induction" and is how I used it.

And life starts at 25 psi of boost

 

[DirtyMike]

I hear ya man.

Check this out, air straightner and an air compressor side by side. lol

Hey lets Stuff One of those into a Miata!!!

 

[DirtyMike]

JSG, Ok I Mistook FI in what you were saying, But lets Drop back to the original Question and statement of this Post. Will heating your fuel Increase Your MPG? No, The Post was about Vehicles In there Factory form. And adding Small items to them to make Noticable improvements. People are talking about eh Different Air filters in here, Does an AC Delco have less flow?? Yes, But when you use the proper Delco filter for the Application<On GM Products BTW>The filter will provide More than enough Air for the Stock Application. Do Delco filters Require more mainainance??? YES, that is why GM's change there FUel filters at 25K instead of the norm 50K. Can you tell how clogged a Metal filter is on newer cars??? Easily, Get your scanner out and look at your "Non sensor, Sensors" Whats your Long term Fuel Trim at???, When it hits about a +7 Your due for a new fuel filter, not just GM's but all OPD2

One of the Funner Mods on a street car is Your SVT Cobra's. Swap out your Blower Snout for the Snout off the Lightning Truck!!!! And yes, you WILL need to Retune the engine afterwords. Its runs Very lean after that swap. But Get it Dyno tuned By someone who is also watching the Exhaust gasses and The car becomes Scary fast.

 

[spookydave]

Hey lets Stuff One of those into a Miata!!!

They have already been stuffed. Both are circle race boats that run 5 laps on a 1 mile oval.

 

[justsomeguy]

JSG, Ok I Mistook FI in what you were saying, But lets Drop back to the original Question and statement of this Post.

Actually, let's get back to my question.

"how is the vehicle making more power, without retuning the ECU?"

You have all of that schooling on the subject, so why does a vehicle make more power with a simple intake and filter change, without retuning the computer?

And life starts at 25 psi of boost

Damn, and here I thought I was having a ball at only 17.4.

I guess I need to shop for some bigger hair driers.

 

[neanderthal]

It's a proven scientific fact that the only way to get a 200% increase in gas mileage is to add whistle tips. Bubb Rubb and Lil Sis published their findings in the latest issue of "The Journal of Automoblie Engineering".

http://ebaumsworld.com/bubbrubbvideo.html

 

[spookydave]

Damn, and here I thought I was having a ball at only 17.4.

I guess I need to shop for some bigger hair driers.

ah, you must not care about gas milage either. I love turbos