[dhkid]

the way i bled it was filling up the reservior to the brim, sliding in the IFP sideways to makesure there is no air under it. then pushing it down to the height that i recorded. so hopefully that way there is no air bewteen the reservior and main piston. but i am sure that itsn't teh best way to do it. the next time i have it apart i wont drain all the oil so i wont have to bleed that part again. but so far i haven't felt any dead spots.

dont worry about the shims man, i cant get ahold of any. but i will have a quick look through the yellow pages, i found some really good stuff in there, like the oil seals.

so, would you say that between 70 and 50 psi i would find a pressure that wouldn't be harsh? and you also said faster rebound would reduce the harshness? are you refering to the harshness in compression? i dont see how that would effect it... or just because the shox would ride higher in its travel?


again, thanks for all your help!!! this is probably the most informative thread i have ever come across in RM.

 

[MttyTee]

Sounds like a good bleed procedure. Maybe a plastic funnel on the resy would make it even more fool proof? That way you could fully submerge the IFP before turning it sideways. Just a thought.

I would guess you could find a good pressure in that range. I run 80 psi in my Sunday, never less than 75 and no hint of harshness at all. Your bike isn't that much lower levered, so it should be good. If you get to 50psi and it still isn't good we can try a few other tricks. Any lower than 50psi and the Control Valve starts to get lazy.

Your spot on with your rebound guess. As with HSR if the LSR is too slow it will start to pack slightly, putting you into a higher spring rate/ higher damping force, making it feel harsh on compression. If your LSR is too fast it will feel harsh too b/c the damper will be rebounding before you have completely passed over the bump.

Glad to be of help

 

[Popoff]

MttyTee,
I was wondering if i couldn't pick your brain for some more info on the 5th element. my rebound adjuster just started to leak oil like dhkid mentioned, but it hasn't stopped. Do you have the size and material specs for the seal on the rebound adjuster shaft?

seeing as these shocks are falling out of favor, but are solid, i'd be willing to help put together a thread here for rebuilding them with general part numbers since progressive doesn't sell to indivuduals. I'm not keen on tossing away $125 for a rebuild just because i need to replace a single oring.

also, do you have a source for shims, especially the small ones used on mtb suspension? it seems like it's a trade secret to find them.

thanks,
Mike

 

[MttyTee]

MttyTee,
I was wondering if i couldn't pick your brain for some more info on the 5th element. my rebound adjuster just started to leak oil like dhkid mentioned, but it hasn't stopped. Do you have the size and material specs for the seal on the rebound adjuster shaft?

seeing as these shocks are falling out of favor, but are solid, i'd be willing to help put together a thread here for rebuilding them with general part numbers since progressive doesn't sell to indivuduals. I'm not keen on tossing away $125 for a rebuild just because i need to replace a single oring.

also, do you have a source for shims, especially the small ones used on mtb suspension? it seems like it's a trade secret to find them.

thanks,
Mike

I'd be really surprised if that o-ring just started leaking. It doesn't see a whole lot of movement, so usually they get nicked on assembly and leak immediatly or they last forever. I would first check to make sure your eyelet isn't threading itself off the end of the shaft. That could cause the o-ring to pass the end of the shaft and leak, as well as other bad things if you don't catch it. If it is the o-ring it is a -007 Buna 70.

Unfortunately i don't have a source for small quantities of shims. If anyone else knows I'd be interested too!!

 

[Popoff]

Thanks,
i actually just finished putting it back together with new o-rings. i just measured the one inside. it started leaking when i screwed the rebound adjustment all the way in then backed it out. i guess the adjustment hadn't been touched in a long time. i also rolled up some wet dry sand paper and touched up the inside surface. it was left pretty rough as if they drilled thru the shaft but didn't go back to clean up the surface afterwards.

thanks for the info.
Mike

 

[Udi]

wheres that quote from Udi, "sorry, but your preference is wrong". works right back at you Udi.

I actually had a reply written up but scrapped it because I didn't want to start an argument in an evident fanboy thread that would probably add nothing to the thread starter's question. Like I said in my first post though, talk to people who have actually run both shocks in current-gen low-leverage DH frames and come back to me with what they tell you.

In any case, I must commend you for the personal attacks against me lately! Completely unprovoked this time too.

 

[Udi]

I even had a team who Progressive used to sponsor beg me for 5th's the next year b/c the shocks that came on their frames were not meeting the perfromance of their previous suspension.

I've ridden a sunday with a genuine sunday tuned 5th (it was actually sent over from the US in early to mid 06), and while it felt much better than a stock 5th, it still performed nothing like a DHX in a sunday. I'm quite sure i'm not the only one on here who feels that way either... your first claim doesn't really line up with any opinions i've read on here nor opinions of local riders. Unless of course the shocks in the team in question's either weren't DHX's (you didn't mention) or were incorrectly sprung/poorly tuned.

I think something like a DHX has a far greater range of tuning, as you have the ability to run very little, or a large amount of compression damping (that is also position sensitive and works similarly to CVT - so as you yourself proved in later posts, CVT isn't the only damper that provides position sensitive compression damping). Same story for rebound - you can slow it down like any shock, but the minimum setting is adequately fast (or too fast) for current low leverage designs, meaning it actually WILL cater for all bikes out of the box. Put a stock SPV or CVT shock in a ~2.6:1 leverage bike (which a lot currently are) and watch the suspension performance go down the drain.

You can think that all you want but as the guy who did the comparative dyno testing at Progressive I can tell you that is absolutely false.

I have to disagree with that and stand with my original statement (because like I said, i've tried the shocks back to back on the same bikes) and the tuning range of the 5th/Swinger in terms of reducing the level of damping, doesn't even come close to the DHX (forget the sunday tune, compared to even a stock DHX). If you were comparing box stock shocks (ie. no custom tuning on any of them, which would be a fair comparison) then i'd be checking that dyno of yours.

As for the compression position sensitivity issue (and your argument that CVT is the only TRUE position sensitive compression damper) - well I don't have much experience in that regard, because I don't believe it's as important a part of suspension tuning as everything else (evidently ohlins/cane creek and avalanche feel the same way) - but fox's damper documentation seems to suggest you're wrong on the point below.

The DHX's Boost Valve is held open intially so until it starts to close

Fox's documentation says:
When the shock is not moving, the boost valve is clamped shut.

Make what you will of that, like I said I don't think it's very important - but the aforementioned range of rebound/compression damping is a very important factor in today's low leverage frames, and I really don't think the 5th caters. The fact that dhkid is running the DHX as his primary shock and using the 5th as an experimental shock is a dead giveaway of his preference, and like I said - 90% of opinions i've read on here (as well as mine) line up with that.

In fact, i'm amazed that i'm sitting here and arguing this - for most it's common knowledge. The sheer amount of "how do I de-cvt my shock" threads that show up here every month should be a good indication of what the riders want.

 

[DHS]

Completely unprovoked this time too.

not true. its just the best quote ever

 

[dhkid]

The fact that dhkid is running the DHX as his primary shock and using the 5th as an experimental shock is a dead giveaway of his preference, and like I said - 90% of opinions i've read on here (as well as mine) line up with that.

this is my first time running the 5th on any bike, i wouldn't count the short period i had it on my vp-free coz i didn't take the time to tune it and slapped on a dhx straight away. to me its still me secondary shox because the dhx is what i am used to, and the 5th does ride differently from what i am used to.

but thats the whole point of experimentation, if after spending some time on the 5th and tuning it to try to get to where i want, i still do not like it then your opinions are correct. but right now i am going to judge for my self.

oh yea, you should really try a 5th with the buna or viton o rings, that alone makes a huge difference. the stock one is rock hard.


but i will have to agree with udi as to most ppl would think of the 5th element as a worse shox then a dhx. i think for one think there is too much going on. like Mtty Tee said, even 5 psi makes a big difference. that along with so many 5ths having stuck control valves gave it a ad name.

i also wonder what riders like peaty were running in their 5th... since tf also offers something along lines of getting rid of the control valve.

 

[Udi]

Of course tuning the shock is a great idea especially if you want a spare and/or something to learn on (I know that's what you want), and it means you can make the shock work properly in the frame.

But my opinion (that was disputed) was in regards to the stock shock (ie. no aftermarket o-rings, no rebound shims removed, no removed CVT unit replaced with shims, etc) and it still stands.

The point I was trying to make in my original post was that the shock definitely didn't cater to many current frames, nor provide a "usable range of adjustment" for them in stock guise - since MttyTee seemed to claim that they did.

 

[MttyTee]

Well, I can think of counter points I want to make in response and I'm sure you would have counter points to make of my response too, but I really have no intent or interest in convincing anybody anything.

Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one.

I'm just telling my side of the story in hopes that someone has a little more fun riding their bike, that's all.

 

[MttyTee]

i also wonder what riders like peaty were running in their 5th... since tf also offers something along lines of getting rid of the control valve.

Sam, Peaty and Rennie absolutely had Control Valves in their shocks.

 

[Jm_]

Sam, Peaty and Rennie absolutely had Control Valves in their shocks.

But obviously the technology/performance wasn't good enough for them to continue with manitou's 5th element shocks.

Hell, the performance wasn't good enough for manitou.

CV/T requires/causes more compression damping than is necessary for optimum bump absorption. That means harsh.

I was using a curnutt and 5th element at the time the DHX came out. I tried the DHX and immediately bought one for each bike. You should try an avalanche sometime Mtty. You'd be suprised how well suspension can perform (seems to kind of be a limiting factor overall, we figure that what we have is the "best there is and will ever be").

 

[ChrisKring]

Sam, Peaty and Rennie absolutely had Control Valves in their shocks.

so did a few other top guys that had control valves hidden inside other branded shocks. That may have been before your time at progressive.

just keep in mind that of the 90% of people with an opinion on this, 75% of them don't even remotely set up the shock correctly regardless of the brand. I have seen it a bunch. A few years ago I helped a couple of guys at the US Open with their setups. By the end of the day I had a line of guys wanting help since they had heard that I had made such a big improvement by clicking it into the correct baseline settings for their bikes and weight. All I was doing for most was doing exactly what they would have done if they had read the directions.

In addition, I developed a book of settings from our testing sessions for my riders. Even if you are on your own, you should record your data and try a bunch of settings regardless of the brand.

IMO, I could not get the DHX to work on my V10. I screwed could not get the bike balanced. The rebound didn't seem to have any adjustment. Maybe I had a turd.

I can't wait to try the new Vivid.

 

[MttyTee]

You should try an avalanche sometime Mtty. You'd be suprised how well suspension can perform (seems to kind of be a limiting factor overall, we figure that what we have is the "best there is and will ever be").

Would I?? You're assuming quite abit about me by making that statement!!

 

[ChrisKring]

But obviously the technology/performance wasn't good enough for them to continue with manitou's 5th element shocks.

Hell, the performance wasn't good enough for manitou.

CV/T requires/causes more compression damping than is necessary for optimum bump absorption. That means harsh.

I was using a curnutt and 5th element at the time the DHX came out. I tried the DHX and immediately bought one for each bike. You should try an avalanche sometime Mtty. You'd be suprised how well suspension can perform (seems to kind of be a limiting factor overall, we figure that what we have is the "best there is and will ever be").

Let's be serious, everyone of those guys is running sponsored items.

And Manitou's use has nothing to do with the performance of the Progressive manufactured shock. Progressive got out when Manitou was selling shocks OEM for less than Progressive's cost. Plus, if Maintou made them then Progressive made money without doing anything. Manitou has other issues besides what technology they are using. Go ahead and try to get support right now.

 

[dhkid]

ride report no.2

reduced the shox pressure to 50 psi and the reservoir size to max.

the difference in the ride is amazing, i cant say for sure if its what i 100% happy with just yet coz i flatted half way down. small bump sensitivity is much better, even when i rode the flat.

i'll report back once i get more time on this set up, i am going to try and speed up the LSR too, probably from getting some shims of a donor shox. then i should be really happy with the shox.

oh yea, i'll add some tm-88 to the shox once i get the set up i am happy with. for those who are aware of what it is, the results so far are amazing. expecially with boxxers and marzocchis.

edit, i forgot to add that it did handle this high speed drop to flat really nicely, with out feeling like it had too much compression. it sucked it up better then my dhx.

 

[KnightChild]

Guys as a note, you should be able to get shims (8mm I.D. and 0.100mm thickness) easily enough at a Motorcross shop that deals in suspension for about US$1 each. MX shocks are made to be easily rebuilt and retuned via shims so availibility of shims should NOT be a problem. However, IF you can't find any places that stock them you can try:

http://www.mei-inc.com/machine/suspension_shims.htm

Take your shims in, or vernier them to be sure of sizes so that you know what you're getting.

Although I see the point of MttyTee and I know that the CV technology has high potential, but at the moment it looks people don't mind sacrificing a little bit of pedalling efficiency for some better bump-compliance.
To me the 5th feels good over either really smooth ground or REALLY rough ground and I only encounter that 2-3 times on my local trail (which has rocks galore) so for the rest of the time the bike feels pretty average.
I've since shim-damped my setup and will never look back - (my frame is an 04 SGS).

 

[Internal14]

Does anyone know of where I can order/buy some seals for the shaft?
A buddy of mine's 5th. coil over had a bunch of oil leaking out of it last week, and I pulled it apart and cleaned it and refilled with fresh oil. Was hoping it might stick together after it got cleaned, but it blew oil again this weekend at N*.
We're heading to Whistler in a few weeks so time is running short. I'd like to get it rebuilt and get at least two full days of runs before packing up and heading for Whistler.
Was ready to lay the money down for an Avalanche....but they're out of the office until next Monday. Doubt they could build one and have it here in less than 10days...I left Craig a message, we'll see if he calls back.

So anyway..Shaft Seals? Anyone have a lead on a couple?
Thanks!

 

[flat broke]

Does anyone know of where I can order/buy some seals for the shaft?
A buddy of mine's 5th. coil over had a bunch of oil leaking out of it last week, and I pulled it apart and cleaned it and refilled with fresh oil. Was hoping it might stick together after it got cleaned, but it blew oil again this weekend at N*.
We're heading to Whistler in a few weeks so time is running short. I'd like to get it rebuilt and get at least two full days of runs before packing up and heading for Whistler.
Was ready to lay the money down for an Avalanche....but they're out of the office until next Monday. Doubt they could build one and have it here in less than 10days...I left Craig a message, we'll see if he calls back.

So anyway..Shaft Seals? Anyone have a lead on a couple?
Thanks!

Posted by Mtty Tee on post 15 of the thread on pg one...

"You want to know my #1 performance tip for the 5ths? Replace the urethane shaft seal (90 durometer) with a Buna (70) or Viton (75) shaft seal. The oring size is "-112" and you can buy a bag of a 100 for $2-$4. I don't know if you can buy less quantity but look around. The stock shaft seal was designed around durability and creats more friction than is needed on the shaft(which is not as smooth as it could be...). I've been using the Buna shaft seal on race shocks for years now and you can get 2-6 months out of them before they start to "sweat" a little oil and they eliminate the sometimes sticky feel."

Pop open the phone book and look for a seal supply house. For that matter, a quick google of Viton or Buna o-ring will bring up plenty of options. These are readily available parts used in tons of stuff beside MTB shocks.

Chris

 

[MttyTee]

Try here http://www.mcmaster.com/. I don't know what it takes to order, you may have to set up an account? But they have a wide variety and it's fairly easy to navigate.

 

[Internal14]

So these are the ticket? Good ones to get the Viton 75?

From the MCMasterCar website:

Part Number: 9464K25 $6.63 per Pack of 50
AS568A Dash Number
112

Type
O-Ring

Cross Section Shape
Round

Width
3/32"

Actual Width
.103"

Inside Diameter
1/2"

Actual Inside Diameter
.487"

Outside Diameter
11/16"

Actual Outside Diameter
.693"

Material
Viton

Viton Type
Standard

Durometer
Hard

Durometer Shore
Shore A: 75

Temperature Range
-15° to +400°F

Color
Black

Specifications Met
Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE)

SAE Specification
SAE J200


Thanks for your help MttyTee!

 

[Kornphlake]

That's exactly what I'd order, and probablly will once I find a strap wrench with a rubberized strap. While you're at it you might as well order enough o-rings for a complete rebuild kit, the shipping shouldn't change and you'll have enough o-rings for a lifetime of rebuilds.

If you've got a local hydraulics shop and you go in looking for a single o-ring they're likely to just give you the one you need, they only cost a few cents anyway.

 

[Internal14]

Alrighty then...got a abg of 50 of them little bastads coming...so if anyone needs one, or three, let me know and I'll throw a them in an envelope.

 

[dhkid]

another little report:

been on the shox for a while now. settings haven't changed since the last time. i am happy with everything except the rebound. when i have time i will change the oil to 2.5wt and see how it goes from there.

on the last ride i have gone back to my dhx, i striped it down and cleaned out the boost valve coz it was sticking. i also sped up the rebound by taking out one of the big shims. i changed the oil weight to 5wt and it really really nice now. after thinking on how i want the shox to work, aka like the 5th. i now run it with my propedal on full, so that the boost valve isn't held open at all.

all and all this has been a good learning experience,i will continue to work on the 5th. but right now i am still more at home on livelier feeling dhx. another mod i have been thinking about is to reduce the internal volume of the control valve. increasing the internal pressure of the control valve when its closed.

Mtty Tee, do you know if the cv (boost valve) in the dhx is open to the atmosphere? it seems to be kept close from the internal pressure of the shox since the boost valve displaces oil when it opens.

 

[MttyTee]

another little report:

been on the shox for a while now. settings haven't changed since the last time. i am happy with everything except the rebound. when i have time i will change the oil to 2.5wt and see how it goes from there.

on the last ride i have gone back to my dhx, i striped it down and cleaned out the boost valve coz it was sticking. i also sped up the rebound by taking out one of the big shims. i changed the oil weight to 5wt and it really really nice now. after thinking on how i want the shox to work, aka like the 5th. i now run it with my propedal on full, so that the boost valve isn't held open at all.

all and all this has been a good learning experience,i will continue to work on the 5th. but right now i am still more at home on livelier feeling dhx. another mod i have been thinking about is to reduce the internal volume of the control valve. increasing the internal pressure of the control valve when its closed.

Mtty Tee, do you know if the cv (boost valve) in the dhx is open to the atmosphere? it seems to be kept close from the internal pressure of the shox since the boost valve displaces oil when it opens.

I assume you never found rebound shims? Too bad, I think that would be the ticket

Be conscious when you go to a lighter oil as you will change compression characteristics too. All the settings now will have to be changed (increased)

I wouldn't bother with changing CV volume, we ran a bunch of different tests initially and the difference was so small you'd never feel it on the bike. Changing the external air pressure 1 psi would be 10 times the change (I don't remember the real numbers but you get the idea). Plus you run the risk of taking up too much volume and disabiling it from closing all the way.

The Boost valve is vented to the atmosphere. It is pushed open with a spring (Pro Pedal). From what I have seen on a dyno and from what I feel compressing the damper off the bike, I say the Boost Valve is open initially. UDI found a quote from Fox saying the opposite. Regardless as the damper is compressed the internal pressure rises and starts to shut down the Boost Valve. Initially it is a balance between Pro Pedal spring preload and air pressure to dictate how far open the Boost valve is then it comes down to air chamber volume to dictate how hard it is shut.

Not sure what you mean about it displacing oil when it open??

 

[FarkinRyan]

I can finally offer a bit of feedback in here, having finally got my 5th work properly after having it re-assembled and 'bled' by Udi a few weeks ago. This is a 3-way 5th (3rd Element?) on an Iron Horse 7.7 for anyone who's interested. I weigh 75kg. Convert that to whatever crazy imperial measurement applies in your corner of the world

First off, there's an important lesson in economics to be learnt from having Udi work on your bike; while outsourcing skilled labour to Sri Lanka may reap short term benefits in terms of cost, in the long-term, quality control is non-existent and costs start to add up. This is of course to say, Udi got way too much air in there while trying to re-assemble the shock sitting on the floor of toodles house with the shock submerged in a jug of suspension oil. He did, however, teach me the correct process to carry out a re-build and give me the confidence to have a crack at it myself, for which he is a legend and future carrier of my man-babies.

On the fateful evening of Udi's re-build, we had originally set out to carry out the 'remove-the-SPV-and-chuck-in-a-spacer' mod designed by Fly only to discover that the mod wouldn't work on a Sunday-tuned 5th. After much head-scratching, beer-drinking and blatant mis-application of tools we decided to just re-build the shock with the SPV still inside and some 2.5wt Silkolene Pro RSF oil and be done with it.

Initial impressions were favourable, the shock had considerably less compression damping and the bike tracked much better as a result but there was still way too much rebound damping and the shock was packing down on braking bumps and the like, presumably because it still had one metric farktonne of air still inside it.

So, today, I re-rebuilt it, this time taking out one big and one small rebound shim and actually getting all of the air out. Once again I used Silkolene Pro RSF 2.5wt. I sincerely believe that this oil is "the" go in getting a stock 5th with an SPV to perform better, the compression damping is, as mentioned, much reduced and noticeably improves the traction in corners and general bump-absorption. With two aforementioned rebound shims taken out, the range of rebound is just about spot on for racing and I can get it set just fast enough to perform well about 1/4 turn from full-out. I haven't had it out on a proper DH trail yet but charging it down some of my local trails, getting all the air out of it seems to have dealt with the packing-down issue as well.

All in all, it's no DHX, but it feels a whole lot better than when we started tinkering with it and only cost me a bottle of Silkolene and a 4-pack of JD and Coke to pay Udi with, so I'm a pretty happy camper.

Current setting for anyone who wants to tinker;
Spring - 275x3"
Rebound - 1/4 turn in from full-fast
Compression - Full out
Oil - Silkolene Pro RSF 2.5wt
IFP depth ~36mm
Air pressure - 55psi
Me -

 

[bElliott]

Alrighty then...got a abg of 50 of them little bastads coming...so if anyone needs one, or three, let me know and I'll throw a them in an envelope.

does the oring just "pop" in and out of the main sealhead ?

 

[dhkid]

Ryan, good to hear that 2.5 wt works well. i would be using the silkolene oil too.

Mtty Tee, scrach that thought on the boost valve thingy. i'll just eccept that it works however it works.

and about the rebound, i want faster LSR. as it is now its at the minimum setting and is no where as fast as i want. wouldn't modding the shim stack be more of a change in HSR? i do feel that the HSR is a bit fast sometimes when you go into a g-out.

i dont mind re tuning the shox again when i go to a lighter oil weight, its half the fun. and as it is i am running nearly all the settings at minimum. so it would be a welcome change to be able reduce some of the settings if i actually want to.

 

[CBJ]

The control valve technology is second to none, it's just been in the wrong hands for a few years.....but not any more!!!!

Then who are the right hands?

Great thread with tons of information and people who know what they are talking about. The LSC insight seems similar to what Avy Rider talked about:

http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182140&highlight=craig+lsc

Reading all of this LSC will be the next focus area of my suspension tuning. I also ride a Sunday since 05 and so I started out with 5th also on my previous Orange 222. Felt great on the Orange but I was never able to get it to work the same way on they Sunday compared to the happy paring with my Boxxer WC and DHX. I acutally think one of the problems was the spring but its was difficult to find springs in the right increments for the 5th tunes Sunday.

 

[MttyTee]

Then who are the right hands?

Well all I can say now is that Progressive no longer has anything to do with CV/t (or anything off road for that matter) and that is a step in the right direction.

We'll see what Hayes can do with Manitou.

All it will really take is someone who wants to invest the normal time to properly test and develop product.

 

[MttyTee]

and about the rebound, i want faster LSR. as it is now its at the minimum setting and is no where as fast as i want. wouldn't modding the shim stack be more of a change in HSR? i do feel that the HSR is a bit fast sometimes when you go into a g-out.

You can modify the shim stack that is on top of the bolt, not the one on the main piston, and that will change your LSR. All you need to do is reduce the preload on the big shim that seals, so adding another small shim underneith would fix that, or reducing the dish on the bolt if you had access to a lathe?? Reduce the preload by .1 mm.

As far as your HSR goes, I would be curious to see if adding LSC would fix what your feeling, you might try that first. If not you could try modifing the main rebound stack to maybe a slight pyramid stack?

 

[MttyTee]

does the oring just "pop" in and out of the main sealhead ?

Basically, you might need an angled, blunt pick to get the old one out, but it's as easy as it seems.

 

[dhkid]

MttyTee- earlier in the thread you said that if i still had problems with too much compression you were hinting that there were other things that i could do to help that?

my 5th has been out of service for a while since it is leaking loads of oil now, the 007 o ring on the rebound needle is bust. wont be able to fix it until i am back in malaysia in 3 weeks.




anyways, since you are here, i got some questions about HSC and what it actually does. wouldn't be ideal if there was less HSC and just alot of LSC?

i was thinking of re shimming dhx with lots of LSC but very little HSC, and then just use higher pressures in the piggy back and a small reservoir size to make to boost valve ramp up alot and kick in when the shox is deeper in the travel. also to to reshim the rebound shim stack so that its fast enough so that i can have the rebound needle closed all the way, that way the oil will only have one path, through the shims.

what do you think?

 

[MttyTee]

Still lurking here and thereI went back to school so time is limited now.

MttyTee- earlier in the thread you said that if i still had problems with too much compression you were hinting that there were other things that i could do to help that?

Another little trick is to remove the beginning stroke compression adjuster assembly and remove the spring. Ideally you'd replace the spring with a much lighter one but the chances of finding the right length, diameter and rate are slim at best. Make sure you leave the little piston on the end of the adjuster shaft or you'll be left with a huge rebound bleed. You'll also get a small "tick" as that piston moves back and forth, but you'll never feel it on the trail

anyways, since you are here, i got some questions about HSC and what it actually does. wouldn't be ideal if there was less HSC and just alot of LSC?

i was thinking of re shimming dhx with lots of LSC but very little HSC, and then just use higher pressures in the piggy back and a small reservoir size to make to boost valve ramp up alot and kick in when the shox is deeper in the travel. also to to reshim the rebound shim stack so that its fast enough so that i can have the rebound needle closed all the way, that way the oil will only have one path, through the shims.

what do you think?

I think you're onto something. The huge bleed through the piston bolt of the DHX is one of the reasons that LSC is difficult to increase in stock form. It'll be difficult to get your rebound setting right with the needle shut but if you can do it, you'll be loving life. The other option is to make a check ball that sits inside the bolt. (Maybe a small bearing and small screw??) That way you could still fine tune your rebound. Again, you'll get a small "tick" with no spring.

As far as the theory of LSC goes, you need as much as you need. Alot is a relative term and you can have too much. You need enough so your chassis is supported during weight shifts and low shaft speed
situations, but you also need to allow "some" of that weight to shift around. Example, cornering in a berm. You want your bike held up so it has travel left to absorb bumps in the corner but you don't want it completely unsettled so it feels goofy high, you want you CG as low as poss..

I'll leave it at that for now since your tinkering with rear shocks but you may want to think about front end geometry under braking. I'm not sure what you know about trail but the mix of LSC and head angle(and offset) dictate the trail measurement, which is a major factor to how you bike handles. Maybe more on that later...

 

[dhkid]

could you go into HSC a bit? coz in my eyes right now with the combination of LSC for stability and the boost valve for bottoming HSC seem redundant.

 

[MttyTee]

could you go into HSC a bit? coz in my eyes right now with the combination of LSC for stability and the boost valve for bottoming HSC seem redundant.

Well, maybe the best answer would be another example. What would happen when you land a large drop. Your LS circuit while providing a small percentage of damping will be blown open and the Boost Valve, which only meters a small percentage of oil (the oil displaced by the shaft entering the body), will only pick up the end of travel. You need some sort of damping that slows the shaft down throughout the entire travel. It may not need much with the scenario you described but you need some damping at every speed. In my opinion your on the right track of thinking with more LSC and the Boost Valve to help bottoming resistance. The added bottoming resistance will help lighten the mainstack so a small displacment/ high speed hit will feel less like a spike.
You're asking some good questions and making good assumptions, it might be time to start thinking more in terms of total damping and controlling all the different speeds and less in the absolute LSC vs HSC. *Warning* it is a very complex puzzle with compression, you have different speeds, different displacements, speed sensitive valving, position sensitive valving.

BTW, the Boost Valve is part of the total damping and contributes to HSC damping if that helps arrange things in your head.

 

[dhkid]

yea, that makes sense. udi gave a similar reply too, he just explained it as a extension of LSC when the shaft speed get faster. you will still need it when you hit a hard g out or something like that.

the reason i keep coming back asking about HSC is because i keep thinking of the scenario when you are hitting medium to small size square edge bumps at high speed. (which gives the highest shaft speeds for the shox) and right now my shox doesn't work that well on those bumps. its not bone jarring, but its just this vibration that comes through, just enough to bounce you off the pedals a bit so that you loose confidence and have to slow down.lthumbsdown: its also rattles my head so much my vision gets blur.

i guess you could say that the shox is spiking. eighter way, i know that there is something that can be done to improve the shox. not some magical change that will iron those bumps all out, but at least an improvement.

so right now, thats is biggest problem i have with the shox. and the reason i am so facinated by HSC, so what advice would you have to improve the performance of the shox in this area?

 

[I_N_I]

Did I miss it, or does anyone have a link(or explaination) to basic 5th element service.

 

[dhkid]

go to manitous web site and read the service instructions for their swinger shoxs. its basically the same shox as the 5th.