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anyone fancy a 303 for a fraction of the price?

vitox

Turbo Monkey
Sep 23, 2001
2,939
1
Santiago du Chili
Here's a simple question for all the knee-jerk-oh-my-god-he-ripped-off-yeti-and-now-the-world-is-going-to-end-and-yeti-will go-bankrupt-and-all-their-work-will-be-outsourced-to-bangladesh types.

When the first rear suspension bikes were introduced that used a swingarm pivoting on a set of bearings did everyone get all up in arms that they were ripping off motorcross bikes and that it was a horrible crime of corporate espionage that would destroy the motorcross industry? Nope. People were stoked that there was a crossover of technology that made riding better for us.

When more and more bikes started being produced that utilised the same pivot-around-bearings technology and maunfacturing them cheaply in Taiwan was it shrilly claimed that it was end of the earth and the fault of those horrible communist Chinese and that soon we'd all be working for Mr Chan and speaking Mandarin. Nope. We were excited that the standardisation of the new technology made bikes more affordable and put more full-suspension designs within the reach of the average rider.

However, Yeti go and design a new way of suspending the rear of a bicycle, ONE guy in Thailand proves that "Hey, I can make that same system in my own workshop" and all of a sudden it's the worst thing that's ever happened? Please. It's brilliant!

If Yeti's system is so good (and it does ride pretty bloody brilliantly in my opinion) then we should expect other manufacturers to pick up the system, start using it and making it both more commonplace and more affordable. This will be good. Good for everyone involved. Stop being so bloody-minded, just because the guy lives in Thailand doesn't mean he's trying to make a cheap rip-off, flood the market and steal Yeti's business. He's made one bike, a proof-of-capability and done a kick-arse job of it. If he was American you'd all be wildly swinging from his nuts and congratulating him on a job well done.

well done
couldnt have said that better
seems common sense is scarcer in the northern hemisphere this time of year, eh?
 

dirtdigger

Monkey
Mar 18, 2007
126
0
N.zud
Here's a simple question for all the knee-jerk-oh-my-god-he-ripped-off-yeti-and-now-the-world-is-going-to-end-and-yeti-will go-bankrupt-and-all-their-work-will-be-outsourced-to-bangladesh types.

When the first rear suspension bikes were introduced that used a swingarm pivoting on a set of bearings did everyone get all up in arms that they were ripping off motorcross bikes and that it was a horrible crime of corporate espionage that would destroy the motorcross industry? Nope. People were stoked that there was a crossover of technology that made riding better for us.

When more and more bikes started being produced that utilised the same pivot-around-bearings technology and maunfacturing them cheaply in Taiwan was it shrilly claimed that it was end of the earth and the fault of those horrible communist Chinese and that soon we'd all be working for Mr Chan and speaking Mandarin. Nope. We were excited that the standardisation of the new technology made bikes more affordable and put more full-suspension designs within the reach of the average rider.

However, Yeti go and design a new way of suspending the rear of a bicycle, ONE guy in Thailand proves that "Hey, I can make that same system in my own workshop" and all of a sudden it's the worst thing that's ever happened? Please. It's brilliant!

If Yeti's system is so good (and it does ride pretty bloody brilliantly in my opinion) then we should expect other manufacturers to pick up the system, start using it and making it both more commonplace and more affordable. This will be good. Good for everyone involved. Stop being so bloody-minded, just because the guy lives in Thailand doesn't mean he's trying to make a cheap rip-off, flood the market and steal Yeti's business. He's made one bike, a proof-of-capability and done a kick-arse job of it. If he was American you'd all be wildly swinging from his nuts and congratulating him on a job well done.
so are you saying that all peoples ideas, inventions and and inervations should be free to use for any one for there own personal gain? hmmmm
 

FarkinRyan

Monkey
Dec 15, 2003
517
66
Squamish, BC
so are you saying that all peoples ideas, inventions and and inervations should be free to use for any one for there own personal gain? hmmmm
No. Obviously every singe innovation ever thought of in the bike industry should remain the sole and exclusive property of the company that used it first. Campognolo (think they did it first?) should be the only company allowed to make QRs and derailleurs. Outland should be the only company (not) still making bikes with VPP rear ends and so on. No company should ever borrow or improve on an existing idea to make it better or more accessible. It's good to see that you've read and thoroughly comprehended the first post I made and haven't extrapolated it to create a ridiculous strawman.
 

CRoss

Turbo Monkey
Nov 20, 2006
1,329
1
The Ranch
N Outland should be the only company (not) still making bikes with VPP rear ends and so on.
Didn't Santa Cruz have to wait for Outland's patent rights to expire before they bought it and started making VPP bikes? Until then Outland was the only company that could make VPP bikes, at least in the US.
 

neverwalk

Chimp
Sep 30, 2007
52
0
You are correct, SC bought the patent from Outland for their own use, and licensed it to Intense.
All the others, DW link, Maestro etc. use subtle "tweaking" of the wheel path to make the "perfect" compromise between pedaling efficiency and suspension action. Each one obviously singing it's own praises as the right way to do it. So, technically, the "idea" of a virtual pivot point, is all based on the Outland design...

Following that idea, all that Chuang has to do to keep from violating the patent, is to tweak a few features. These could be seen as improvements, or detractions from Yeti's 303. Yes it is a "copy" in that he did not think up the original design, but Borrowed, or even Stole someone else's. It's not the same as burning thousands of dollars worth of DVD's, and selling them illegally. Or making copies of watches that are Tag Heur, or Rolex, or Gucci handbags, that are sold with the intention of deception. That is "copying" and therefore violating copyrights/patents whatever. If he made an identical copy, then stuck a Yeti logo on it, then all this bitching would be justified.
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,944
0
MV
You are correct, SC bought the patent from Outland for their own use, and licensed it to Intense.
All the others, DW link, Maestro etc. use subtle "tweaking" of the wheel path to make the "perfect" compromise between pedaling efficiency and suspension action. Each one obviously singing it's own praises as the right way to do it. So, technically, the "idea" of a virtual pivot point, is all based on the Outland design...
dw-link could not be further from VPP from a design standpoint. There was no "tweaking" at all that went into dw-link. It was a standalone design from the ground up. You literally could not find two suspension systems that are more different. About the only similarity is that the designs both use short links.

Carry on!

I applaud Mr. Chuang for his efforts. As long as he is not selling this stuff then he's not hurting anyone. The minute he starts selling them, well, my attitude changes on the subject.
 

neverwalk

Chimp
Sep 30, 2007
52
0
Hey Dave,
You are the man as far as this stuff goes, and I'm not trying to get in your face, just have the discussion...I expect to get my ass handed to me, please be gentle.. you've actually met me a few times :wave:....

But, here, goes... Isn't the general "idea" about using multiple links, instead of a single swingarm pivoting off a point on the front triangle (regardless of a pivot link in front of or above the rear dropout) to create a tunable wheelpath to fight drivetrain induced action all based on Outland's original design? Again, this is conceptual, not practical. Did anyone do it before them?
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,944
0
MV
Hey Dave,
You are the man as far as this stuff goes, and I'm not trying to get in your face, just have the discussion...I expect to get my ass handed to me, please be gentle.. you've actually met me a few times :wave:....

But, here, goes... Isn't the general "idea" about using multiple links, instead of a single swingarm pivoting off a point on the front triangle (regardless of a pivot link in front of or above the rear dropout) to create a tunable wheelpath to fight drivetrain induced action all based on Outland's original design? Again, this is conceptual, not practical. Did anyone do it before them?
I think that the actual rough concept dates back to somewhere near the dawn of history itself. The actual implementation is what's important. There have been countless designs, including the outland design, that "intended" to do something useful to counteract what riders term "bob". All kinds of misguided approaches have been taken, some with success, some with disaster, all with luck. Designs based on instant center locations, S-shaped axle paths, vertical axle paths??, pivots in line with chainlines all come to mind as examples that fall into that category. The harsh reality is that none of them really diagnosed the problem fully or correctly and then took a specific course of action to solve that problem. The result is a bunch of marketing stories that sound very similar, and corresponding products that perform very differently. dw-link was the first to really break the problem down to the roots (the realization that a suspension's "bob" is a reaction to mass transfer during acceleration) and then counteract that issue with a solution (position sensitive anti-squat). The result ends up being that the dw-link design ends up being in all ways, just a heck of a lot different than anything else. Better? Thats for you to decide, different? pretty much undeniable.
 

1453

Monkey
Look, I'm not doubting he does great work, it ain't easy fabricating something that complex on your own.

But I think what we have here is the cultural barrier between languages in regards to what "copy" means. No need to go into a debate how when imitation becomes "copying" I suppose, nothing good can come out of it.

Remember when people dislike replication, I'm sorry, "improvement" of an existing product, it doesn't always have anything to do with racism or prejudice. There is nothing inherently legally wrong with "re-creating" the 303 in the jurisdiction he operates in, I suppose, and since the laws of your country allows that, there's nothing we can do about it.

OK, All I want to mean is that Chuang doesn't has a copy job in common, but he is frame fabricator. There is no 303 in Thailand. Nobody has seen 303 before. It's like re-create for 303. That 303 is a truly custom made. All we got is just several pictures in magazine.
Another point is that even they use the same suspension system never means to copy. Chuang 303 has been done since 2006. Compare to Yeti at that time, you some difference in detail. I never mind to call them as copy, but I just don't like the way that some guy insult and underestimate him just because he is Thai.


But for SC he really did copied, because his customer want a small SC for 4X which is rarely to find it here too. It's made by order, not by his own will.

He has his own design, and those rigs have been race in Thailand.

Actually I read Rm for a long time ago, but I feel lazy to post. I just want to inform some guys who interest in his craftsmanship with an affordable price.
 

1453

Monkey
I applaud Mr. Chuang for his efforts. As long as he is not selling this stuff then he's not hurting anyone. The minute he starts selling them, well, my attitude changes on the subject.
seems like the laws there don't prohibit the things that he is doing, so he did sell a copied SC Blur according to the poster who seem to know quite a bit about his operation.
 

demo 9

Turbo Monkey
Jan 31, 2007
5,911
45
north jersey
yes its a "copy" a few things might be different but really who cares, this man is not going to put yeti out of buisness. ill b surprised if he even makes another. let it rest. i aplaud him for actually making one.

*start flaming now*
 

Jm_

Turbo Monkey
Jan 14, 2002
9,035
1,457
AK
Hey Dave,
You are the man as far as this stuff goes, and I'm not trying to get in your face, just have the discussion...I expect to get my ass handed to me, please be gentle.. you've actually met me a few times :wave:....

But, here, goes... Isn't the general "idea" about using multiple links, instead of a single swingarm pivoting off a point on the front triangle (regardless of a pivot link in front of or above the rear dropout) to create a tunable wheelpath to fight drivetrain induced action all based on Outland's original design? Again, this is conceptual, not practical. Did anyone do it before them?
Azonic World Force VR-1? Yeah, the idea of "multiple links" is not new, far from it, and quite a few different manufacturers have done it. This is just a really really old example of the same. It's also not VPP.
 

dw

Wiffle Ball ninja
Sep 10, 2001
2,944
0
MV
Azonic World Force VR-1? Yeah, the idea of "multiple links" is not new, far from it, and quite a few different manufacturers have done it. This is just a really really old example of the same. It's also not VPP.
Yup, great example. Azonics, FSRs, faux bars made most popular by Kona, Turners, and the later Ellsworth copies, VPPs, dw-links, they all have the same amount of pivots.

Just like real estate.

Location, Location, Location.
 
Mar 6, 2008
8
0
Thanks for all post here. Yeah, you're right 1453. There' re might be some difference in mind between east and west. I told you so, I never mind to call them as copied rigs, but some one try to ruin the good with the twisted mind. There are many ways to pay comment, make it creative.

I never think this topic will come this far. I think some guys here point the right issue. I'm mechanical engineer, I have participated in Patent Seminar once.

please come, let me explain to you. the idea for patent is that serve rights to inventor, while give chance to development. So come out they are.

1. You can't register all principle, theory, formula, technique, some naturally existed.

2.The invent must be a complicate stuff, or new creation, or use high technology in production.

3.Patent never cover thing that uses for experiment, study, non-commercial activity.

So you can do DIY, if you don't sell it. In this case customer ask you to make some thing like a patented stuff and you can do it because you don't sell it but your position is somewhat like a hired gun,don't gain profit from product but from craftsmanship. Is it clear?

I'll show you how things go in suspension design in bike industrial



This is call simplified diagram
Black dot represents wheel axle, Red dot represents pivot.

Config.A is a simplified Single Pivot.
Config.B is a simplified horse link, which is actually single pivot.
Config.C is a simplified 4-bar link, this configuration is quite interesting. It can be FRS, Lawill, VPP, DW, Maestro, FPS, ...da da da.

Yeah, it's all about location, small change can results in large difference. That's why principle can't be any patent. Study the proposal in patent is really crucial for make any improvement on market, it's also really careful to when pending any patent.

This is for one who wanna build 303 by your own.


If I have time I will analyze 303 wheel path, and show it to you.
 

dirtdigger

Monkey
Mar 18, 2007
126
0
N.zud
ok had a look on the site, can some one explain to me what this instantaneous center stuff is? think ive seen it on other sites too.
dose a single pivot have one ?
is this marketing bs?
oh can i buy one for my bike? like the powerband i got for my motobike?
 

Steve M

Turbo Monkey
Mar 3, 2007
1,995
23
Whistler
ok had a look on the site, can some one explain to me what this instantaneous center stuff is? think ive seen it on other sites too.
dose a single pivot have one ?
is this marketing bs?
oh can i buy one for my bike? like the powerband i got for my motobike?
The instant centre is simply a point about which the swingarm is rotating at an INSTANTANEOUS point in the travel. Alone it means nothing, if you plot it through the travel (on 4-bar bikes it moves/migrates) you can get an approximated/averaged centre of curvature, which is more useful for some analyses, because it gives you a real radius of curvature. On a singlepivot the IC is at the pivot, as is the CC (since the IC doesn't move).
 

djamgils

Monkey
Aug 31, 2007
349
0
Holland
I never mind to call them as copy, but I just don't like the way that some guy insult and underestimate him just because he is Thai.
I have been away for the weekend biking in germany but I would like to respond to this one.
Just to make it clear but maybe you are not talking about me. I didn't mean to insult him and especially not because he is Thai or whatever. I have experience with companies that have their products made in china or whatever and I would rather buy a product that is made in the east then in america.
And I also have experience with the problems when your products are being copied and sold way under price, ****ty quality and with almost the same brand name. So maybe I overreacted a bit with the copying thing but hope you can understand it from my side now.
 
Nov 29, 2006
19
0
Beavers is too modest.




He designed it and manufactured it, but I get to ride it. I have possesion.

:biggrin:

Best homework assignment I ever saw him complete. IMHO, all his other homework assignments just aren't as much fun.

It is a very expensive bike. I figure it cost me around 200 grand, what with the college bills and all.

I'd like to see more pictures of home made bikes, especially with the engineering drawings that go with them.