Anyone for a Biblical Thread..
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Yes, but that was definitely B.C. Jesus didn't tell him to kill his brother.
I think the biggest thing that screws people up is confusing religion and spirituality. Religion is a man-made thing. and anything man makes can be screwed up. Spirituality, on the other hand, whether you're a Baptist or a Buddhist, has nothing to do with religion. It's a relationship between you and your higher power. It's not about Al Qaeda, or jihad or one man condemning another. It's not about wars or genocide. I have no use for religion. I am, however, trying to learn more about God in an effort to build a spiritual life (I don't have one at all currently). But we've got to keep in mind that religion has nothing to do with God, and I don't suspect He likes it much either.
I think the biggest thing that screws people up is confusing religion and spirituality. Religion is a man-made thing. and anything man makes can be screwed up. Spirituality, on the other hand, whether you're a Baptist or a Buddhist, has nothing to do with religion. It's a relationship between you and your higher power. It's not about Al Qaeda, or jihad or one man condemning another. It's not about wars or genocide. I have no use for religion. I am, however, trying to learn more about God in an effort to build a spiritual life (I don't have one at all currently). But we've got to keep in mind that religion has nothing to do with God, and I don't suspect He likes it much either.
Well done grasshopper...............Casey said:
I'm curious Chang, are you familiar with what the Bible says with respect to Christians and where they are to be open minded or in your words "shortsighted"?Changleen said:
I'm not defaming Jesus, I'm criticizing a (I assume) follower.Casey said:
I don't have a huge problem with Jesus. Sure, he could have cast the evil spirit somewhere else instead of drowning a bunch of good pork, and I don't think the fig tree had it coming, and he had a bit of a God complex, but besides that he's not all bad.
It's his fan club that gets me going...
Luke 12:53 - this was not a command from Jesus for His followers to go do, this was His description of what would take place when people beleived He ws the Messiah and when some wouldn't - which is esspecially intersting that He mentions this as the Gospel of Mark His own family thinks He's a bit "looney" - at least for a while.Changleen said:
Luke 19:27 - Jesus here is referring to the Jews that would reject Him and how God would judge His people - ie the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD and the various wars that would follow.
Again Chang, I posed the question - where in the Bible are New Testament beleivers told to be shortsighted or closed minded???
Come on fluff, he is just the liberal N8. I actually think they might be the same person. N8 during the day. Changleen during the night.fluff said:
When do ya'll sleep?
Shurely not? After all multiple user names are against the rules now. N8 can't be himself, Changleen, and the montashu can he?DRB said:
Now I think about it, I wonder what the montahsu's name would have been had he spelt it right?
They say schiprenzoids are really smart.....fluff said:
.....wiping diet coke off my screen and keyboard....fluff said:
Thus proving my point... And either way, those are just your interpretations. People are free to take these thing more literally. Why don't you post what those passages actually say and let other monkeys decide for themselves? :devil:Andyman_1970 said:
It's just these sort of passages that rabid Muslim haters use to demonise the Koran as a book of hatred and evil. I'm not defending the Koran by any means, both it and the Bible have been increadibly damaging to the course of human progess over the years. Everything was going great until you christians turned up. The ancients greeks were making huge inroads into science and the nature of the universe, and had pretty much rejected the idea of god, as any sensible person would, but then someone wrote this stupid book, and it all went to crap...
DIdn't he say 'I am the only way to God'?
If not them, it would have been something else. That's just the way it is.Changleen said:
And how long have you studied New Testament theology?? My "interpretation" is based on the historical, and cultural context not to mention the grammar used in the Greek. Please feel free to let me in on your method of interpretation.Changleen said:
Think what you want, it was the Greeks that came up with the wonderful [not] philosophy of dualism.......Changleen said:
Just like you asserted above, those are you interpretations........and your intitled to them.
Oh and BTW, the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures (aka "That Stupid book") were the first people to use writing for anything other than record keeping (as in accounting), they were the first to attempt recording events for historical purposes.........so say what you will, the Bible has had some positive effects on the world we live in.
He also said He was "the Truth", which if you take that to it's logical end, all truth is God's truth as one philosopher put it. Just so you know, that phrase you quote is not unique to Jesus, the Torah was also refered to as "The way, the truth and the life".Changleen said:
Nope, it's the reality.Changleen said:
Religions don't spring out of the void fully formed. They occured for very good reasons.
In what sense do you mean dualism? Some of the Greeks were the first materialists.Andyman_1970 said:Think what you want, it was the Greeks that came up with the wonderful [not] philosophy of dualism.......
Splitting reality or life into material [bad] and spiritual [good]. This carried over and influenced early Christianity, which resulted in such puritanical (and non-Biblical) ideas like sex is inheritly(sic) evil.Silver said:
So now you are claiming your 'interpretation' is the only valid one? Why do you feel the need to interpret it, if as others in this thread have claimed, it is the pure word of god? Surely it needs no interpretation?Andyman_1970 said:
But they also allowed themselves to develop many other theories, and to allow these to evolve and be questioned. The greeks were on the right path until christianity muddied the waters of logic and reason for everyone.Think what you want, it was the Greeks that came up with the wonderful [not] philosophy of dualism.......
Cool. Fine. It is also my interpretation that the Bible, Koran, organised religion and church in general are all highly effective methods of controlling populations based on the logically unsupportable premis that they are the absolute truth delivered from god, and dependant on your level of fanaticism (ignorance) albeit maybe tainted by the delivery of man.
Rubbish. Prove it.
Keeping idiots happy and in the thrall of manipulative leaders is not a positive effect. Neither are centuries of (still ongoing) religiously motivated and inspired wars and the suppression of free and emergent science and ideas. Someone earlier was saying how supportive his church was in his hour of need, as if somehow if his church did not exist he would have had zero support. All the 'good' things which have come out of religion are incidental and would almost all have occured anyway. The fundamental point of churches is as a method of control and suppression and, as a rule they discourage critical and rational thought in the vast majority of their subjects.
So your point is? That I'm right? How is this encouraging free and rational thought? It's clearly not, is it?
You're still a dualist thoughAndyman_1970 said:
The concept of an immortal soul is about as dualistic as you can get, theological considerations aside.
Andy and I aren't using the same term.
It has a different meaning philosophically and theologically.
It has a different meaning philosophically and theologically.
I'm not going to comment on divine inspiration of the Text, but wouldn't you argree that a book written by Jews 2000 years ago should be viewed in the context it was orginally written if we are to have any kind of insight as to the writers orginal intentions.......this is what I try to do.Changleen said:
Actually if more Christian were fanatics (ie lived out the teachings of Jesus), as you say, there would be a whole lot fewer starving people in this world.Changleen said:
Start by reading Thomas Cahill's "The Gift of the Jews" (secular historical book, a national bestseller), then Norman K. Gottwald's "The Hebrew Bible - a Socio-literary introduction", then "The literature of Ancient Egypt" by William Kelly Simpson, then William Foxwell Albright "Yahweh and the gods of Caanan" - feel free to google or amazon these to confirm this is not "Christian propoganda" but history. Again, it's historical fact these were the first people to be choniclers of events they essentially "invent" history.Changleen said:
Also things like our modern democracy and ideas like distributive justice are rooted in ideas put fourth in the Torah. In the ancient near east the idea of time was very "circular" there was no way anything different could possible happen in the ancient mesopotamian mind. The Jews were the first people to "come up with" the idea that time is linear and events can be changed - something new can happen - this was totally revolutionary in regards to the other ancient worldviews. The Jews were one of the first cultures to invent an alphabet, not just thousands of symbols each with a different meaning.
I'm not making this up, granted these writing are not without an agenda, but they are of huge historical significance.
I don't disagree with your statements there. But the question I posed to you was not does the church or churches discourage critical thought it was does the Bible............big difference.Changleen said:
OK, So Judaism began around 1300BC.
What about the Babylonians? Writing was popular in 3000BC.
What about Egypt? Use of simple phonetic pictograms in 3200BC.
What about everyone they came into contact with over the next 1700 years? Or is Jewish writing somehow special and better because it was choosen by god?
Ah, well, sorry, I've been dipping in and out and I'm mainly still doing this one:Andyman_1970 said:
But it's an easy extension. All churchs are built on the premis of the bible or some other holy text or manhandled ideal, right? They are basically the only entities which promote and progress these ideas. Without a church a religion would not survive, and therefore neither would the bible. Your question is redundant. It's like asking if zinc in the firing pin of the gun thought it was OK to kill people.
But anyway, as I already said, Jeeziz (alledgedly) said to da people:
I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(John 14:6)
If that ain't discouraging the validity of other spiritooall and filersofikal avenoos I dunno what is, eh? As I contended, the basis of modern organised relgions is that you keep your 'orrible little mind closed to other realities of the universe and do wot I say. And get back in your mud-hut.
People like to talk about the good that religion does as if that somehow religion did not exist, people would be devoid of morals and people would never be found being nice to each other. So short sighted. Sports associations, village councils, rotary club/masonic organisations, hell even corporations and governments occasionally help other people out...
"Oh but look at how much the Church gives to charity! Look at the good work they're doing in Africa" - So short sighted. As if any grouping of rational, logical people with the better interests of society would not act in the same way. Yet for some reason we have to have the church's officially authorized version of these morals and all the war and suffering that goes along with it, because this version is absolutely, unquestionably right, and if anyone says even slightly different, they must die.
Bull****.
Morals are not the preserve of the churches. Morals are the logical conclusion of rational thought about ways to produce a stable and prosperous societys. They are, in some ways an evolutionary necessity, not the word of some bush-burning god*. Because some ancient leaders found it convenient to perpetuate a control myth rather than educate and progress their society like the greeks, we're stuck with a series of cults based on obvious lies which have meant humanity has systematically crusaded, intafada'd and generally massacred one another into the 21st mother****ing centuary. Science and logical though has (except in the early days by Hindus and Muslims) largely suppressed, until very recently (200-300 years) by methods as severe as death even the western world.
*(Wow, god still apparantly talks to people today through a bush. This one is burning Iraq though, not itself, more's the pity...)
Since Judaism started with Abraham (essentially a group of Semetic nomads) your start date is about 1000 years too young.Changleen said:OK, So Judaism began around 1300BC.
What about the Babylonians? Writing was popular in 3000BC.
What about Egypt? Use of simple phonetic pictograms in 3200BC.
What about everyone they came into contact with over the next 1700 years? Or is Jewish writing somehow special and better because it was choosen by god?
I did not say there was no writing before the Jews, I said they were the first to invent and alphabet, not just thousands of symbols each with a unique meaning.
Dude, I was being purely historical here, granted the writing have an agenda, but that does not discount their historical significance - I never asserted this was because they had "help" from God. I was trying keep the discussion purely historical.
Yeah and the ancient (1st century) Greeks had no myths or cults.........Changleen said:
BTW, the city of Athens it was widely held it was easier to find a god than a man.Thanks for your rant Chang - but you still have not answered my question - where in the Bible is it commanded not to be critical thinkers?
Fundamentally what are the differences?Silver said:
Actually the Greek thinking influence on Christianity views the Kingdom of God as detached from this world. They think eternal life as something that happens after earthly life is over.Silver said:You're still a dualist though
The Hebrew/Eastern way of thinking (which I subscribe to) view the Kingdom of God as something beginning in this life. They see eternal life as a life lived in harmony with God.
How is that eternal?Andyman_1970 said:
Good question, I'm still "unpacking" this idea. I've been studying the Talmud (Oral Torah) and the Mishnah (rabbinic commentary on the Torah) on this very subject.fluff said:
Eternal life (Hebrew Olam habba) has more to do with living in harmony with God rather than *poof* your soul is wisked off to heaven. One idea, is heaven is where things are as God intends them to be. Now when we live as God intends for us to live, and heaven is where things are as God intends for them to be - when we live that way we are bringing heaven to earth.
Ever considered Buddhism?Andyman_1970 said:
Why do you ask?fluff said:
You seem to be heading towards a similar philosophy with the idea that eternal life is actually a state of pure harmony. Kinda similar to Nirvana.Andyman_1970 said:
Chuck in a bit of Taoism and I'll be right there with you in non-hippy, chilled-out paradise.
We could start a new religion...
Jesus was an Eastern teacher...............fluff said: