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Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
Iraq, we started the war it is our problem to take responsibility and finish it. A time line is just giving our opposition a date they have to survive to until they can do what ever they want. At the same time what is considered a victory in Iraq?
Here, I wrote this up a long time ago, and it sounds like you need a Middle East history lesson.


The Middle East is a relatively unknown part of the world for Americans, and with the increasing focus being placed on the region, a look into its culture and past experiences with Western Imperialism is important. The U.S is isolated from the Middle East, culturally, physically, and educationally.

To understand the Middle Eastern response to Western Imperialism, one of the earliest examples of violent imperialism in the Middle East is Napoleon's ventures into Egypt. Napoleon, then a General, was a military genius. At the time, the English and the French were locked in a clash for supremacy. The English had a formidable navy, that was hugely superior to the French navy, but the French had a large, experienced land army.

Napoleon landed in Egypt with his troops, and started spreading leaflets, written in Arabic, proclaiming that he planned to liberate the Egyptians and give the fruits of the land to the people. The French forces easily crushed the Mamluks, the brutal rulers of the Egyptian people. During the French Army's stay, Napoleon brutally and forcefully tried to rule over the Egyptians, and the Egyptians rebelled.

Long story short, the Egyptians kept resisting, slowly wearing down the French until it became too costly in men and money to stay there, and they left in 1801.

After World War I, the Ottomans were thrown off of the Middle East, and Britain and France came in to cut up the Middle East for trade purposes, called the Sykes-Picot agreement. This was a secret agreement that showed that they had no intentions of letting the Arabs rule themselves. In the Sykes-Picot agreement, they declared that Palestine was to be home to the Jewish people.

They put in King Faisal as the leader of Syria, but when agreements about the French mandate over Syria increased tensions, the French Army came in, exiled Faisal, and started marching on the rest of Syria. The Syrians resisted and it took 3 years before the French Army gained control of Syria in 1923. In 1925, the Syrians rebelled again. Through constant declarations of independence, they were finally independent in 1944.


I chose only 2 examples, because it was getting long, and there are many more. The fact is that the region has a history of constant resistance until the invader leaves.

American business taxes have so many loopholes, that they are pretty low.

The surge was a horrendous failure, and commanders in Iraq are saying that the Taliban have to be part of a diplomatic solution, meaning that we have to work with them rather than against them.
 
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blue

boob hater
Jan 24, 2004
10,166
0
california
Immigration. Would somebody please look up the definition of the word illegal and make sure all of our Senators, Representatives and the President understand the meaning. If someone is here illegally there is no debate just send them back. There was a recent ICE raid on a factory and someone made this comment and I quote "They just came in here and rounded them up like criminals." As far as I am concerned an illegal immigrant is a criminal. I would love to see statistics right now showing if the illegal immigrants are or are not experiencing job shortages.
No, what's criminal is what WE have done to THEIR country that has forced them here.
 

CRoss

Turbo Monkey
Nov 20, 2006
1,329
0
The Ranch
Here, I wrote this up a long time ago, and it sounds like you need a Middle East history lesson....

This is one of the reasons we should have stayed out to begin with. Turning tail and running I do not think is the solution. At the same time I do not know what a solution is. Peace is a myth that the Middle East will never see. If we pull out militarily we should still stay and help rebuild what we came in and f#%ked up.
 

CRoss

Turbo Monkey
Nov 20, 2006
1,329
0
The Ranch
I'm curious, why do you think that the Middle East can't see peace?
Because two opposing religions say the land belongs to them. Who says the land belongs to them, their god. So for there to be peace you need one group to agree their god is wrong. Seriously you can't do that.
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
Because two opposing religions say the land belongs to them. Who says the land belongs to them, their god. So for there to be peace you need one group to agree their god is wrong. Seriously you can't do that.
Well, that's simple, one group of people had the land, then people came in and forced the Palestinians off their land, it rightfully belongs to the Palestinians.

Or Israel can stop treating the Palestinians like dogs that need to be caged in, and start working towards peace.

i'd say there was a far greater chance of da jeebus landing in downtown Manhattan in a space ship than peace in teh middle east...

you know that you know this... ur just playing ghey.
calling me gay isn't a rational argument
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,007
149
The Cleft of Venus
I'm curious, why do you think that the Middle East can't see peace?
i'd say there was a far greater chance of da jeebus landing in downtown Manhattan in a space ship than peace in teh middle east...

you know that you know this... ur just playing ghey.
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,007
149
The Cleft of Venus
Well, that's simple, one group of people had the land, then people came in and forced the Palestinians off their land, it rightfully belongs to the Palestinians.

Or Israel can stop treating the Palestinians like dogs that need to be caged in, and start working towards peace.
of course israel isnt alone in urinating on palestinians.. their fellow arab brothers freely wiz on them just as much..
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,007
149
The Cleft of Venus
Again, calling me dumb isn't a rational argument. The problem isn't religion, it is western imperialism.
Palestinians have never exercised full sovereignty over the land in which they have lived.. never...

so, has 'Palestine' ever really existed?
 

Samirol

Turbo Monkey
Jun 23, 2008
1,437
0
How long has there been fighting over this land?

How long has Western imperialism been around?
There was fighting in Europe just as long as in the Middle East, in the 1800s, western imperialism ramped up and helped destabilization the region. Look into the Sykes-Picot Agreement, just for one example of political destabilization.

The reason there was an Islamic revolution was because of western imperialism, and it is an attempt to separate from it, to fight it. I can post a much longer post, but I don't think anyone will read it.

edit: by western imperialism, I am referring to American and European imperialism.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
I think the government needs to do some serious housecleaning.
Well, I don't agree with you on pretty much anything except that last point, but I appreciate you writing it all out.

On deadlines in the middle east - I can understand the point of view that it gives the "enemy" a target to break, but without a timeline and milestones the Iraqi forces have no incentive to take over. Additionally, our very presence there is destabilizing, so the sooner we can make ourselves inconspicuous the easier it will be for the Iraqi forces to maintain stability. No one is talking about abandoning them... it is a drawdown, and that's how it has always been discussed.

On possibility of peace in the middle east - while I agree the outlook is currently quite bleak right now, I'm not sure which "two" religions you're referring to. Judaism and Islam? The problem in Iraq is between to sects of Islam, not to mention Kurds and Christians. And the history of the Middle East is no bloodier than that of Europe. North America only gets away easy because our history is shorter, but in the last 300 years we've had wars with the French, British, Mexicans, various Indian alliances, and ourselves. South America slips under the radar because only the victors are left. Africa and Asia don't fare so well either.

Economy - well both parties are supporting stricter regulation at this stage, so not much difference. Question for me is do we support the ones who were pushing for all the deregulation that let lenders and consumers run wild for the past 7 years?

Immigration - there's a bunch of good threads in this forum on this one. I agree illegal is illegal; however I think the situation is the result of high demand for the labor combined with very restrictive immigration quotas. I think as long as you have demand, there will be supply. I would like to see stricter oversight and punishment of corporations that use illegals and a guest worker program instituted to give a supply of documented, legal workers.

House-cleaning - you're not going to get it from McCain who has spent the last 8 years proving he's a team player (at the expense of everything he once believed in).

You're welcome to vote 3rd party, but no matter how good it makes you feel it's a wasted vote in a battleground state.
 

ohio

The Fresno Kid
Nov 26, 2001
6,638
4
SF, CA
5000+ years of middle eastern history say ur wrong.
The only reason the middle east has 5000+ years of bloody history is because they've had writing for 5000+ years. Everywhere else has the same bloody history; it just never made it to paper.

I'd like your reply in the form of a youtube video with no typed commentary, please.
 

CRoss

Turbo Monkey
Nov 20, 2006
1,329
0
The Ranch
You're welcome to vote 3rd party, but no matter how good it makes you feel it's a wasted vote in a battleground state.
Never expected anyone to agree.

I do agree that a 3rd party vote is a wasted vote. Our system really has no way of expressing you do not like anyone except to not vote at all.
 

$tinkle

Expert on blowing
Feb 12, 2003
14,591
5
The problem isn't religion, it is western imperialism.
How long has there been fighting over this land?

How long has Western imperialism been around?
and to add: what do you know about al-andalus (a.k.a. andalusia), and how it relates to imperialism? how did this place come to be? treaties, trade, infrastructure?

(also, must spread to SS; but a faggy lager will have to do for now)
Native American Buffalo Population

1492: ~ 54 -100 Million

1850: ~ 8 Million

What were you saying about violent peoples?
fixed
 

jimmydean

The Official Meat of Ridemonkey
Sep 10, 2001
30,724
3,753
Portland, OR
Never expected anyone to agree.

I do agree that a 3rd party vote is a wasted vote. Our system really has no way of expressing you do not like anyone except to not vote at all.
And that's what the GOP want you to think. Vote for them, or don't vote because they win either way in their eyes.

Just follow n8 and vote McCain because Rush told him to.
 

kidwoo

Celebrating No-Pants Day
Aug 25, 2003
23,721
3,066
In my pants
Our system really has no way of expressing you do not like anyone except to not vote at all.
All that does is get you ignored. It's a cop out and a hand out to the the majority in your state. It's anything but a 'statement.'

If you really want to make a difference do it long before an election with backing of whatever 3rd party you want to see make a stand. Get awareness out LONG before it's vote time.

But you and millions of others didn't. So now it's time to make sure what you call the best of the worst gets in office. Because the worst of the worst really is a poorer option. Apathy just makes you a jackass. Not a champion of opposition.

EDIT: what are you actually looking for in someone you can back? The POTUS doesn't need to be your best friend or someone you agree with 100% idealogically. Very little that's done in that office can be said to affect your life greater than the decisions you make yourself on a day to day basis.
 
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N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,007
149
The Cleft of Venus
so you're voting for your conservative Palin? or just against that uppity guy?
mmmm.. palin...

:drool:


but no.. i am voting against a pelosi/franks/obama appointed supreme court majority.

i'll take my chances with whomever whacky mccain appoints

:)
 

N8 v2.0

Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Oct 18, 2002
11,007
149
The Cleft of Venus
i see in the latest poll today that mccain/palin has moved up within 3 points of obama.

the poll had a 2.8% margin of error..

pretty close to a dead heat.