Anyone see Hotel Rwanda?

valve bouncer · Mar 5, 2005

Well certainly America didn't do enough but if blame is being handed out the two countries with the largest portion have gotta be France and Belgium. They caused that mess. Great beer makers but horrible colonialists the Belgians.

preppie · Mar 5, 2005

valve bouncer said:
They caused that mess. Great beer makers but horrible colonialists the Belgians.

Could you give more info on this statement?
I wonder what makes you think the Belgians 'caused' that mess?
Or do you mean the Belgian Catholic Church and their "divide and rule" strategy?
I must admit The Belgian Catholic Church did 'things' that are horrible and extremely 'vulgar'
... just like King Leopold II and what he did in Congo.....but these subjects are 'touchy' subjects for the Belgians, because they are deeply ashamed of what these people did in the name of Belgium.

Ps: I didn't see the movie yet.

valve bouncer · Mar 5, 2005

preppie said:
Could you give more info on this statement?
I wonder what makes you think the Belgians 'caused' that mess?
Or do you mean the Belgian Catholic Church and their "divide and rule" strategy?
I must admit The Belgian Catholic Church did 'things' that are horrible and extremely 'vulgar'
... just like King Leopold II and what he did in Congo.....but these subjects are 'touchy' subjects for the Belgians, because they are deeply ashamed of what these people did in the name of Belgium.

Ps: I didn't see the movie yet.

Hutu and Tutsi were artificial constructs created by the Belgians in an attempt to make Rwanada and Burundi easier to colonise. The two "tribes" are for all intents and purposes the same, they speak the same language. That's why there are fewer Tutsis than Hutus. The Tutsi were the privileged class under the Belgians.
As you say Rwanda was just the tip of the iceberg as far as Belgian colonial excesses were concerned. Estimates of people killed in the Congo during King Leopold little misadventure run into the millions. I've yet to read it but I believe the book "King Leopold's Ghost" is quite a good source for information on this subject. Any monkies read it?

Andyman_1970 · Mar 6, 2005

I've not seen this movie, so I don't know the particulars of what happened - although I plan on seeing it.

I read an interesting observation by an outspoken post modern Christian, that this movie demonstrates a "better" model of what a Christian is all about (I'm not sure if the main character in the movie is a Christian), and the things a Christian should be concerned with than The Passion of the Christ.

Andyman_1970 · Mar 7, 2005

The article:

Revisiting the Passion of the Christ
by Brian D. McLaren
Maybe it's because I spent time last summer in Burundi, the poorer twin sister of Rwanda that shares a similar history, tribal makeup, geography, culture, and terrifying undercurrent of genocide. Maybe it's because while I was there, I met Anglican priests serving in Rwanda who told personal stories of the tragedies there - and their efforts to bring healing and reconciliation in the aftermath. Maybe it's because (some readers may be tempted to write me off after reading this sentence) I was so frustrated by last year's promotional hype surrounding Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ - and I was so frustrated by the movie itself, though I know many found it moving and spiritually edifying. Maybe it's because I have deep concerns about the alignment of major sectors of Christianity with "red-state Republicanism," and I worry that a kind of modernist, nationalist neo-fundamentalism is trying to claim all Christian territory as its sovereign domain.

For whatever reason, when I walked out of the 2005 film Hotel Rwanda this thought wouldn't leave me: If we really had the mind and heart of Christ, this is the movie we would be urging people in our churches to see. In fact, I can't think of a more worthwhile experience for Christian leaders than to watch Hotel Rwanda and then ask themselves questions like these:

Which film would Jesus most want us to see, and why?

Why did so many churches urge people to see Gibson's film, and why did so few (if any?) promote Terry George's film? What do our answers to that question say about us?

What were the practical outcomes of millions of people seeing Gibson's film? And what outcomes might occur if equal numbers saw Hotel Rwanda - as an act of Christian faithfulness?

In what sense could Hotel Rwanda actually be titled The Passion of the Christ?

What do we make of the fact that a high percentage of Rwandans who participated in the 1994 genocides were churchgoers?

What do we make of the fact that a high percentage of the Americans who ignored the 1994 genocides (then and now) were and are churchgoers?

What kind of repentance does each film evoke in Western Christians? Why might the kind of repentance evoked by Hotel Rwanda be especially needed during these important days in history?

It's been well over a week since I saw the film, and I still feel a churning inside me, a disquiet, a rumble in my heart that feels to me like "the burden" that the old prophets used to speak of, maybe even a simmering heat reminiscent of Jeremiah's "fire in my bones."

And now, I realize that even raising these kinds of questions has possibly stimulated defensive and divisive temptations in many readers. "This guy must be a liberal," some readers are thinking. "Go get 'em, Brian!" others might be saying.

And then I go back to the film again. And I think about Tutsi and Hutu locked in a cycle of fear and aggression, insult and revenge, attack and counterattack. And I also think of the Twa - the literal "little people" of our world - whose story is so little known and who suffer in the crossfire between the larger, more powerful tribes. And I think about how our community of Christian believers is divided by tribes also caught in long-standing cycles that seem to defy reconciliation: Protestant, Catholic; liberal, conservative; red state, blue state; contemporary, traditional; postmodern, modern; seeker-driven, seeker-sensitive; purpose-driven, tradition-driven; and so on.

And I go back to the film and think of the hotel and its manager, himself a Hutu but one who loves Tutsi as well. I think about his distinction early in the film among family (who deserve help) and non-family (whom one can't worry about), and how in the course of the genocide he comes to see that all neighbors are family. And I wonder why so few of us see our neighbors in the Christian faith in anything close to a similar way - not to mention our non-Christian neighbors who may also be modern-day prostitutes, tax collectors, and Samaritans. I wonder what kind of tragedy it would take to bring us to the insight gained by that hotel manager.

Then I realize that, in some ways at least, the tragic tsunami of Dec. 26, 2004, did that. I didn't hear anyone saying, "Let's raise money for Baptists in Indonesia," or "Let's send help to Evangelicals in Sri Lanka," or "Let's be sure no liberals get any of our help, or any Hindus, or Buddhists, or Muslims." I think about the words of a Sri Lankan - whether he was a Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, or Christian, I don't know - who said that a wave of destruction had crashed upon them, but when he looked to the horizon he saw another wave rising: an even taller, deeper, and more powerful wave of compassion.

And then I realize that's why Hotel Rwanda seemed to me an even more Christian film (forgive me if this sounds crazy to you - but try to understand) than The Passion of the Christ. It evoked in me a wave of compassion for my neighbors around the world, whatever their color or tribe, whatever their religion or politics. And I hear our Lord saying, "As you have done it to the least of these...you have done it to me."

For a wave of compassion to arise, we know there must first be a wave of repentance. How odd that re-thinking (which is what repentance means) must precede emotion, but then again, perhaps it is bad thinking that numbs and steels us, and blinds and distracts us from the sufferings of our neighbors.

I wonder if I can look to the horizon and see, by faith, a wave rising, a wave we could call "the compassion of the Christ." Could that wave rise and catch us all, bringing us together for the sake of the least of these, whom Christ is not ashamed to call sisters and brothers, whom he loves with the greatest passion of all: compassion?

Brian McLaren is the founding pastor of Cedar Ridge Community Church in Spencerville, Maryland. This article originally appeared in Leadership Journal.

N8 v2.0 · Mar 7, 2005

Yet another one that Clinton missed the ball on whilst playing hide-the-cigar...

JMAC · Mar 12, 2005

jon cross said:
I'm not one to get really into movies, but this moved me. It tore me up to see a dramatic film portraying what we (US) let go in Rwanda while we send the bulk of our fighting force to Iraq, where such genocide has never occurred on a remotely comparable scale. Even our MEU sent to the Tsunami victims was more than we contributed to stop the atrocities in Rwanda. I left the theater feeling angry that so many died and we still did virtually nothing. I really hope that we won't allow such acts of ethnic cleansing to happen again.

I've read alot about the Rwanda genocide, the US certainly sat back on that one . However, any country could have contributed and they didn;t. The thing I find most terrible of the US is they rented out the crappiest vehicles to the UN mission that was in Rwanda and charged them millions of dollars.
I don;t think you can Blame Belgium or France either. They at least offered troops but mostly were turned down cause of the UN.
I think the west did over look the situation but the Rwanda really did try to cover it up. The people responsibly basically planned the whole thing out and tried their best to keep the UN as far away as possible. Than again it wouldn;t have taken much to stop it, and what happened to the soldiers that were there. Canadian and Belgian alike was terrible, many have killed themselves or at least tried since the genocide cause of the things they were forced to see.

JMAC · Mar 12, 2005

valve bouncer said:
Hutu and Tutsi were artificial constructs created by the Belgians in an attempt to make Rwanada and Burundi easier to colonise. The two "tribes" are for all intents and purposes the same, they speak the same language. That's why there are fewer Tutsis than Hutus. The Tutsi were the privileged class under the Belgians.
As you say Rwanda was just the tip of the iceberg as far as Belgian colonial excesses were concerned. Estimates of people killed in the Congo during King Leopold little misadventure run into the millions. I've yet to read it but I believe the book "King Leopold's Ghost" is quite a good source for information on this subject. Any monkies read it?

You wrong abotu much of that actaully. Tutsi spoke french, Hutu's english. Belgian is to blame for carding everyone making it easy to identify the different tribes. One thing that people over look is traditionallly before the west ever came Hutu and Tutsi's still hated each other.

JMAC · Mar 12, 2005

preppie said:
Could you give more info on this statement?
I wonder what makes you think the Belgians 'caused' that mess?
Or do you mean the Belgian Catholic Church and their "divide and rule" strategy?
I must admit The Belgian Catholic Church did 'things' that are horrible and extremely 'vulgar'
... just like King Leopold II and what he did in Congo.....but these subjects are 'touchy' subjects for the Belgians, because they are deeply ashamed of what these people did in the name of Belgium.

Ps: I didn't see the movie yet.

The Cathloic church is very much to blame. Rwanda is a VERY cathloic country and believes in the pope. The pope NEVER condemned the killings, by doing so rwanda thought it was ok. I put a large part of the blame on the Catholic church as a result.

fluff · Mar 13, 2005

N8 said:
Yet another one that Clinton missed the ball on whilst playing hide-the-cigar...

Wow, didn't you just miss the point...

preppie · Mar 14, 2005

JMAC said:
The Cathloic church is very much to blame. Rwanda is a VERY cathloic country and believes in the pope. The pope NEVER condemned the killings, by doing so rwanda thought it was ok. I put a large part of the blame on the Catholic church as a result.

I agree with that, the Pope never condemned it, while he knew damn well what was happening, the Belgians informed him and the Pope and his staff looked the other way...this reminds me of the Pope in 1943 and the extermination of the Jews.
It seems like they will never learn.

In those days the UN couldn't 'decide' if this was a genocide or not, until 10 Belgium elite para-troopers where lynched and things got really out of hand but it was too late.

In the end, I 'blame' the divide and rule strategy of the Belgian Catholic Church, because they knew the Hutu's and Tutsi's would never get along and they abused this fact and gave the Tutsi's more power/privileges 'knowing' it would end in some kind of civil war.

JMAC · Mar 14, 2005

preppie said:
I agree with that, the Pope never condemned it, while he knew damn well what was happening, the Belgians informed him and the Pope and his staff looked the other way...this reminds me of the Pope in 1943 and the extermination of the Jews.
It seems like they will never learn.

In those days the UN couldn't 'decide' if this was a genocide or not, until 10 Belgium elite para-troopers where lynched and things got really out of hand but it was too late.

In the end, I 'blame' the divide and rule strategy of the Belgian Catholic Church, because they knew the Hutu's and Tutsi's would never get along and they abused this fact and gave the Tutsi's more power/privileges 'knowing' it would end in some kind of civil war.

Yup you got it. Though I think it's unfair to put blame on anyone but the people who commited the genocide.
One thing that was terrible about the genocide and which is covered alot in Shaking Hands with The Devil is how so many people when for protection in churches and the genoceders (sp?) just brioke in and cut open pregnant women than killed the unborn baby. With maschetes they went about chopping people about until they would get tired and rest for a bit outside, only to come back and finish what they started.

llkoolkeg · Mar 14, 2005

jon cross said:
So who are you saying is responsibile here?

Who else would he blame? The U.S. of A. We are damned when we do and damned when we don't, even when it wasn't our mess originally to mop up. He's probably got two dozen American flags and Bush effigies pre-soaked and ready to burn the next time McDonalds shorts him a small fries. :rolleyes:

Btyler311 · Mar 14, 2005

Y, I might have a bootleg DVD of this flick originally provided "only for awards consideration." Its a pretty messed up story and well presented.

Roughest part to watch is not the bodies in the mass grve scene or even the machete killings in suburban neighborhoods but when Nick Nolte tells the main charecter, "Youre not even a nig%$, youre just a black african and nobody cares." Of course he cares and hes the hands tied UN guy who wants to hlp but can't. Its this line that rings so sadly true with the current events in the Sudan as well.

Tyler

valve bouncer · Mar 14, 2005

llkoolkeg said:
Who else would he blame? The U.S. of A. We are damned when we do and damned when we don't, even when it wasn't our mess originally to mop up. He's probably got two dozen American flags and Bush effigies pre-soaked and ready to burn the next time McDonalds shorts him a small fries.

Pull your head in mate, no-one in this thread is saying this is America's fault. In fact I think it's been made pretty clear that the most part of the blame lies with France and Belgium. Should make you happy, shouldn't it?

valve bouncer · Mar 14, 2005

JMAC said:
You wrong abotu much of that actaully. Tutsi spoke french, Hutu's english. Belgian is to blame for carding everyone making it easy to identify the different tribes. One thing that people over look is traditionallly before the west ever came Hutu and Tutsi's still hated each other.

Really? Wow Hutus speak English, Tutsis French? I always thought that they had their own local language. Silly me, I have been educated, haven't I?
http://www.answers.com/topic/tutsi
Try the Wikipedia definition, especially the last two or three paragraphs.

Changleen · Mar 14, 2005

valve bouncer said:
Silly me, I have been educated, haven't I?

Nope, Looks like you've been 'left behind'.

BuddhaRoadkill · Mar 14, 2005

In reference to the movie:
I felt like I was watching a microcosm of humanity. If we took the entire global community and shrunk it down to one small nation, Rawanda is what we would get. The wealthy and educated living protected from any dangers. Some of those wealthy aquiring their fortune by selling weapons to the poor. Mass media used to manipulate the poor into horizontal hostility. Violence begetting violence. Military grunts drunk on power. Do-gooders bound by rules and ineffective. All that sociological stuff really jumped out at me the way the story was presented. Being centered in a Ritzy hotel, class division was really driven home. Odd the way a movie will strike people differently.

JMAC · Mar 14, 2005

valve bouncer said:
Really? Wow Hutus speak English, Tutsis French? I always thought that they had their own local language. Silly me, I have been educated, haven't I?
http://www.answers.com/topic/tutsi
Try the Wikipedia definition, especially the last two or three paragraphs.

Hmm i could be wrong I was under the impressing that one tribe was english the other french. Wasn;t there something about the Tutsi's living in a nahbouring country for a long time and it was them deciding to come back into Rwanda where they belonged that started the whole thing. I think one tribe was english and the other french, maybe not originally but it happened for some reason. At least I got that impressing from Gn Dallaires book, that was one of the main reasons he was selected to run the UN mission because he was bi-lingual in french and english....

Anyone see Hotel Rwanda?

Monkey

Master Dildoist

Monkey

Master Dildoist

Turbo Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Not the sharpest tool in the shed

Turbo Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Monkey Turbo

Monkey

Turbo Monkey

Monkey

Ranger LL

Chimp

Master Dildoist

Master Dildoist

Monkey

Paranoid Member

I suck at Tool

Turbo Monkey