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Anyone use an Ochain thingy?

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,738
9,459
AK
but "pedal kickback doesnt exist something something derailuer takes it up" - one of the regulars

is the biggest difference mowing down braking bumps?
Getting the damping right is the biggest issue with braking bumps IME. Once you do, they are a joy on the trail and you seek them out, as in, GIVE ME MOAR!
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
but "pedal kickback doesnt exist something something derailuer takes it up" - one of the regulars

Like I said, engineering is hard. Going out and literally watching someone bounce up and down on a bike while staring at the derailleur is even harder I guess.

Ever notice how much better your suspension works with a non-clutch derailleur? Or even better with no chain? That's because it adds resistance to the exact phenomenon you think you're ridiculing.

Pedal kickback does exist, to the point it matters only on some of the worst bike designs ever implemented, none of which are really even made any more.

I'm only talking about coasting....high AS bikes will provide what really is pedal kickback just climbing rough stuff. But that's because the chain is tensioned and not having the slack taken up by the deraileur like when coasting
 
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buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,755
4,628
Champery, Switzerland
where's udi to bring up all the times buckow is fascinated with a new toy only to realize its issues later :D


hey buckow: what bike is it. High pivot thing?
Normal pivot height.

So you do know what it does…
“Ever notice how much better your suspension works with a non-clutch derailleur? Or even better with no chain? That's because it adds resistance to the exact phenomenon you think you're ridiculing.”
 
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buckoW

Turbo Monkey
Mar 1, 2007
3,755
4,628
Champery, Switzerland
Hey @buckoW , have you ever tried one on a bike you pedal uphill as well?
No, I have not. During the bike park season I don’t do much pedaling. The timing takes a second to get used to but maybe in the lower settings it is easier. I’ve only tried the 12* so far.

Floating over roots where you are unweighted and clipping the tops of roots might be my favorite part where it’s easier to hold a line.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Perfect for those big uphill hits

It has enduro in the title so you know it's true

pedalkickback.JPG


I had a norco range not too long ago that really did suck pedaling up anything rough because of too many aunty skwatz. I complained to norco and they aplologized and sent me next years frame with the horst link raised :rofl:



I think the time is right to sell some elastomer sprung clipless pedals to people. No one riding remembers.

lighter than springs!

I'll call them offza

floating rear brakes too. They work well enough on some bikes that there's a decent percentage of people that will sing their praises. I'll sell tens!
 
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kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
Screw you, I remember. I remember on Horse Canyon specifically.
nah I'd feel guilty and just send your money back

I'm after the welding shades dipshit moustache crowd. I want to take every red cent they have. I figure if I send a montucky cold snack beer with every purchase I'll be able to rob them blind.

I was talking with an old friend last night who's ridden bikes as long... The level of cloning these days is unbelievable. If I can get a pair of offzas in the right youtuber's hands, I'm retiring because every single one of those dumbfucks will buy them.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
53,882
19,611
Sleazattle
nah I'd feel guilty and just send your money back

I'm after the welding shades dipshit moustache crowd. I want to take every red cent they have. I figure if I send a montucky cold snack beer with every purchase I'll be able to rob them blind.

I was talking with an old friend last night who's ridden bikes as long... The level of cloning these days is unbelievable. If I can get a pair of offzas in the right youtuber's hands, I'm retiring because every single one of those dumbfucks will buy them.

A newer better vibration damping sticker is where it is at. Or maybe a 3 lb torque damper on the cranks and list all the multi-million dollar super cars that have them on their crankshafts.
 

englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,545
1,034
La Verne
Like I said, engineering is hard. Going out and literally watching someone bounce up and down on a bike while staring at the derailleur is even harder I guess.

Ever notice how much better your suspension works with a non-clutch derailleur? Or even better with no chain? That's because it adds resistance to the exact phenomenon you think you're ridiculing.

Pedal kickback does exist, to the point it matters only on some of the worst bike designs ever implemented, none of which are really even made any more.

I'm only talking about coasting....high AS bikes will provide what really is pedal kickback just climbing rough stuff. But that's because the chain is tensioned and not having the slack taken up by the deraileur like when coasting
So those same bikes that do pedaling over the rough stuff.
Do they also do it to you braking through huge braking bumps,
On the brakes where wheel speed is perhaps lower than ground speed?
Slappin that forward foot a bit? Chassis responding to the bumps but that forward pedal seeming to not move down as much as the frame?

You have never experienced this feeling?
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
So those same bikes that do pedaling over the rough stuff.
Do they also do it to you braking through huge braking bumps,
On the brakes where wheel speed is perhaps lower than ground speed?
Slappin that forward foot a bit? Chassis responding to the bumps but that forward pedal seeming to not move down as much as the frame?

You have never experienced this feeling?
I literally chastised a dw turner frame in a bike review on blister years ago for almost throwing me off trying to pedal deep into the travel on a hard uphill compression after coming mach chickin into it.

I'm not saying the phenomenon doesn't exist. As much as I hate to agree with any stupid enduro site, I've been saying essentially the same thing as that screen shot from the o-chain review......that on most frames made nowadays, built around a single front ring setup, it's a non-issue because it's practically been eliminated where it matters......kind of like 'brake jack'

Do you realize how dangerous actual pedal kickback would be on descents?

I guess we need to define parameters here, because I've been talking about dh bikes and descending the whole time, not 2mph climbing. Yes OBVIOUSLY when your chain is under tension, exerting a downward force on the wheel from pedaling (ole aunty skwatz), and you have full wheel traction, of course you can get an opposing force on the chain. But the idea that you need to chase it around on a slack chain while descending on pretty much any modern bike is just the next snake oil.

I mean I for one would love to just watch someone get ejected full finish line sprint from hitting a 2" bump, don't get me wrong. But it's not a thing. Not on bikes you can very easily design around one chain ring where antisquat is almost nil in dh sprint gears.
 
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Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,738
9,459
AK
I was actually thinking about all this last night as I rode my Foes, which somehow doesn't feel like it's snapping in half when I hit a bump, like my old Foes did. But I do notice the suspension is "stiffer" if I go over a really prominent root that's just sticking up out of nowhere and I try to pedal over it, vs. coasting and I pedal "at it" at the right angle and pedal stroke. It's not a huge difference, but it's there, but the other part about it is as you are riding through crazy rough terrain you simply can't pedal in a lot of these places anyway, with all the chassis movement due to g-loading and other impacts, even if they are handled great, you get your pedal strokes in during the sections where you can and it's just not that impacted by this. Or if you are able to pedal, your ability to do so just isn't all that impacted. Getting suspension tuned right for your unsprung mass can be tricky, but once you do and you have that stability, you can blast sections and it may not feel the most "plush" even, but you'll go faster and be stable.
 

6thElement

Schrodinger's Immigrant
Jul 29, 2008
15,681
12,756
A newer better vibration damping sticker is where it is at. Or maybe a 3 lb torque damper on the cranks and list all the multi-million dollar super cars that have them on their crankshafts.
Q-Cranks.

They'll do whatever you believe they can do for you.
 

englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,545
1,034
La Verne
I literally chastised a dw turner frame in a bike review on blister years ago for almost throwing me off trying to pedal deep into the travel on a hard uphill compression after coming mach chickin into it.

I'm not saying the phenomenon doesn't exist. As much as I hate to agree with any stupid enduro site, I've been saying essentially the same thing as that screen shot from the o-chain review......that on most frames made nowadays, built around a single front ring setup, it's a non-issue because it's practically been eliminated where it matters......kind of like 'brake jack'

Do you realize how dangerous actual pedal kickback would be on descents?

I guess we need to define parameters here, because I've been talking about dh bikes and descending the whole time, not 2mph climbing. Yes OBVIOUSLY when your chain is under tension, exerting a downward force on the wheel from pedaling (ole aunty skwatz), and you have full wheel traction, of course you can get an opposing force on the chain. But the idea that you need to chase it around on a slack chain while descending on pretty much any modern bike is just the next snake oil.

I mean I for one would love to just watch someone get ejected full finish line sprint from hitting a 2" bump, don't get me wrong. But it's not a thing. Not on bikes you can very easily design around one chain ring where antisquat is almost nil in dh sprint gears.
im talking about a small transmission of extra harshness through the front foot on higish to high AS bikes through braking bumps.
thats all.
 

toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,419
4,642
Australia
A newer better vibration damping sticker is where it is at. Or maybe a 3 lb torque damper on the cranks and list all the multi-million dollar super cars that have them on their crankshafts.
in the past couple of years we've seen the fashion cycle return zero-reach/hi-rise stems and steering dampers again. The gravel bike thing has brought back thudbuster posts and suspension stems. Hayes even brought back purple ano and it sold out.

Next bike thing will be IRC Missile red sidewalls. Just you wait.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
53,882
19,611
Sleazattle
in the past couple of years we've seen the fashion cycle return zero-reach/hi-rise stems and steering dampers again. The gravel bike thing has brought back thudbuster posts and suspension stems. Hayes even brought back purple ano and it sold out.

Next bike thing will be IRC Missile red sidewalls. Just you wait.
SRAM will soon come out with a wireless Hite-Rite.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
When can I get ochain for my gravel bike?

kidwoo = triggered
I fully support anyone trying to sell recycled and abandoned ideas that fix problems largely designed out of current bikes to at or near irrelevance.

This is one of the dumbest markets around, ripe for the taking. It's like going on a stop wokeness tour. The business model is so well proven you can't lose!
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
im talking about a small transmission of extra harshness through the front foot on higish to high AS bikes through braking bumps.
thats all.
No but I also am usually biased to my rear foot on rowdy descents if anything.

That norco I had was almost unridebru stomping pedals on rough steep climbs it extended so hard under pedal loads it was so far up aunty skwat's ass. It was dumb 1999 heckler levels of stupid it put so much downward force on the wheel when pedaling. You could sprint on a dirt road and watch the shock extend.

And it was one of the smoothest, best descending bikes I ever owned, because of exactly the phenemon me and euroenddurpo mag describe.

It ain't a thing man. Stick a go pro on your derailleur and go smash through something. The chain slack resolves it, and the derailleur takes up the chain slack. Trying to pedal on some bikes sure, but not if that chain isn't under tension to resist.

Although I have to ask now, what bike are you talking about exactly?
 
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englertracing

you owe me a sandwich
Mar 5, 2012
1,545
1,034
La Verne
Although I have to ask now, what bike are you talking about exactly?
Mondraker Summum CF 27.5'' 2015_Anti-squat.gif


the reason "modern suspension designs" dont "eject you off" on "big huckz" is that the AS drops off as you compress beyond sag,

but when your braking along, you can be in the sag to top out region, and have LOWER wheel speed, leads to front foot getting whacked.
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,738
9,459
AK
The mondraker seems to be more akin to what Specialized and others did to try and compete with the V2/V3 DW stuff, instead of raising and flattening out their AS curves some, they just jacked them up to the stratosphere with the same steep profile, while mid-travel was still falling like crazy and would still result in pedaling a wet mattress uphill if you encountered bumps, weight shift, etc. Most figured it out and flattened the curve instead of just shifting it way up...but that Mondraker is whacked out.
 

Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
53,882
19,611
Sleazattle
No but I also am usually biased to my rear foot on rowdy descents if anything.

That norco I had was almost unridebru stomping pedals on rough steep climbs it extended so hard under pedal loads it was so far up aunty skwat's ass. It was dumb 1999 heckler levels of stupid it put so much downward force on the wheel when pedaling. You could sprint on a dirt road and watch the shock extend.

And it was one of the smoothest, best descending bikes I ever owned, because of exactly the phenemon me and euroenddurpo mag describe.

It ain't a thing man. Stick a go pro on your derailleur and go smash through something. The chain slack resolves it, and the derailleur takes up the chain slack. Trying to pedal on some bikes sure, but not if that chain isn't under tension to resist.

Although I have to ask now, what bike are you talking about exactly?

The only bikes I ever felt kickback on were old school high pivot SCs. And all I had to do to not deal with it descending was to shift into the big ring. Perhaps that is what we need to sell to DHers today, front derailleurs.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
View attachment 196985

the reason "modern suspension designs" dont "eject you off" on "big huckz" is that the AS drops off as you compress beyond sag,

but when your braking along, you can be in the sag to top out region, and have LOWER wheel speed, leads to front foot getting whacked.
I said "good" modern bike desgins, that thing looks like a mess. 2015 isn't modern, not even by my standards. So disappointing from the visionaries that brought us zero offset stems, now a household standard. Also, their newer bikes look nothing like that.

Besides, pEdAl kICkBaCk increases with travel usually

The reason you don't get pedal kickback on deep travel events is because you're absorbing and impact and YOU'RE NOT PEDALING

pedalkickback2.JPG


my comments about ejection were in regards to sprinting, not big huckz. Try to avoid projecting plz
 
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Westy

the teste
Nov 22, 2002
53,882
19,611
Sleazattle
I said "good" modern bike desgins, that thing looks like a mess. 2015 isn't modern, not even by my standards. So disappointing from the visionaries that brought us zero offset stems, now a household standard. Also, their newer bikes look nothing like that.

Besides, pEdAl kICkBaCk increases with travel usually

The reason you don't get pedal kickback on deep travel events is because you're absorbing and impact and YOU'RE NOT PEDALING

View attachment 196996

my comments about ejection were in regards to sprinting, not big huckz. Try to avoid projecting plz
And unless you are wheelie dropping off of loading docks you are probably going to be fast enough that it doesn't matter. If you do some simplified calculations off of those numbers for the 29" V10, assuming peak suspension velocities equivalent to the vertical speed from a 1.5 meter drop to flat, and using full travel, and you will not feel pedal kick if you are going faster than about 2 MPH.
 

kidwoo

Artisanal Tweet Curator
And unless you are wheelie dropping off of loading docks you are probably going to be fast enough that it doesn't matter. If you do some simplified calculations off of those numbers for the 29" V10, assuming peak suspension velocities equivalent to the vertical speed from a 1.5 meter drop to flat, and using full travel, and you will not feel pedal kick if you are going faster than about 2 MPH.
2mph eh..

whew.....let's see what we can do


I just looked up the turner I almost broke an ankle with in the very unusual situation of trying to sprint up a compression coming at it around 15-20mph (that uphill rock face on 3rd divide in dville if you know), and golly gee, wonder how that happened :rofl:


 
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toodles

ridiculously corgi proportioned
Aug 24, 2004
5,419
4,642
Australia
No but I also am usually biased to my rear foot on rowdy descents if anything.

That norco I had was almost unridebru stomping pedals on rough steep climbs it extended so hard under pedal loads it was so far up aunty skwat's ass. It was dumb 1999 heckler levels of stupid it put so much downward force on the wheel when pedaling. You could sprint on a dirt road and watch the shock extend.
I borrowed a mate's Orange 221 for one run and nearly got bounced off the bike just from the pedals doing weird shit in the rough. I don't know what the precise term is for for what the hell it was doing but I wasn't prepared for it and it was terrifying.
 

Gary

"S" is for "neo-luddite"
Aug 27, 2002
7,405
5,322
UK
Talking of fantastic downhill bikes of the past... A dad turned up the other day asking if I could resurrect this for his 10yr old to ride around Edinburgh on and I had to tell him realistically how much it would cost and that even then it'd be a terrible choice of bike for a kid to ride around city streets on.
_20230713_224912.JPG

He ended up leaving it out for the bin men. Edinburgh's pretty much bike theft capital and no one's taken it yet.