[RhinofromWA]

The american had a large lead and had won but the judges spent some time debating to disqualify him for an "illegal turn."

Swimmers (other than americans) were saying it was politically motivated....

Anyway, I saw the turn during the race from above and I thought it looked wierd....but thought that since I know less than 1% about swimming it was probably OK. To me it looked like he rolled over onto his stomach and took one more stroke....anyone else that swims alot see it?

Golgi,
You are a swimmer right? Any thoughts?

I don't know how "politically motivated" the questioning of the turn was.....it was iffy to me. The second place swimmer (who would inherit the Gold) said he would have felt wrong accepting the medal....yada yada.

Is swimming as politically motivated as Ice Skating? neaky:

In Mens Gymnastics:
How about that Hamm guy.....fell on his arse on the vault yet pulled off the over all? Was someone fealing sorry for him? I didn't see the rest of his excercises but I did catch teh vault were he fell into the judges If he did infact earn the overall after a disasterous fall on the vault than but do you think it was fair if the others didn't scew up as bad?

I know less about Gymnastics than I do Swimming so I was just curious. I hate sporting events that are "judged" The clock or distance is a true measurement to me...nt the opinion of a handfull of judges.

Rhino"thebabbler"fromWA

 

[Silver]

I think politically motivated refers to the fact that the American swimmer had earlier accused a Japanese swimmer of illegal dolphin kicks in the breastroke...

I was watching it, and I think when they said politically motivated, they meant swimming politics.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Swimmers (other than americans) were saying it was politically motivated....

I watched the alleged illegal turn. It was interesting that when the disqualification was first brought up, the second place swimmer said something to the effect that the "DQ" was bogus. I thought that was interesting because if the first place guy was DQ'd the second place guy would get the gold medal, he had everything to gain and yet asserted that the turn was legal............interesting.

 

[RhinofromWA]

I think politically motivated refers to the fact that the American swimmer had earlier accused a Japanese swimmer of illegal dolphin kicks in the breastroke...

I was watching it, and I think when they said politically motivated, they meant swimming politics.

I didn't see that. I am assuming nothing happened then? the China swimmer got his medal......

As far as politics go....swimming or international, is there really that big of a difference?

I thought the whole thing was pretty funny.....but as I know little about swimming if they said it was illegal than I would have accepted that. :

Did you see the American Hamm guy fall on the vault. I felt bad for him but when he skipped across on his azz into the judge I said....oh, sh!t that aint good hahahaha. Poor guy that has got to work your mind after that.

 

[RhinofromWA]

I watched the alleged illegal turn. It was interesting that when the disqualification was first brought up, the second place swimmer said something to the effect that the "DQ" was bogus. I thought that was interesting because if the first place guy was DQ'd the second place guy would get the gold medal, he had everything to gain and yet asserted that the turn was legal............interesting.

Yeah he was basically rejecting the gold....

 

[Toshi]

I watched the alleged illegal turn. It was interesting that when the disqualification was first brought up, the second place swimmer said something to the effect that the "DQ" was bogus. I thought that was interesting because if the first place guy was DQ'd the second place guy would get the gold medal, he had everything to gain and yet asserted that the turn was legal............interesting.

2nd place said that the dq was bogus, not that the turn was legit. as a former swimmer i have to admit that the turn was a bit odd as he stayed flipped over for a long time... he still would have won by a large margin even with a much slower turn tho. also, peirsol's criticism of japan's kitajima earlier looked to be a low blow, especially how the american tv channels covered it.

paul hamm's victory was legit 100% tho, as his parallel and high bar routines really did look great and the others ahead of him faltered a bit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics_2004/swimming/3582278.stm

 

[RhinofromWA]

2nd place said that the dq was bogus, not that the turn was legit. as a former swimmer i have to admit that the turn was a bit odd as he stayed flipped over for a long time... he still would have won by a large margin even with a much slower turn tho. also, peirsol's criticism of japan's kitajima earlier looked to be a low blow, especially how the american tv channels covered it.

paul hamm's victory was legit 100% tho, as his parallel and high bar routines really did look great and the others ahead of him faltered a bit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/olympics_2004/swimming/3582278.stm

Thanks for the link Toshi.

I was unaware of China's swimmer and Peirsol's critisism. Interesting.

I should have watched the Rest of Hamm's routines....darn. I did get to see the fall though. It is like a car wreck...you have to look and the TV station is required to replay the event over and over and over...never as truely shocking as the first time it happens.

 

[Toshi]

kitajima is japanese! not chinese! big difference there, ya know.

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/sports/index.ssf?/base/sports-2/109269427784050.xml&storylist=sports

 

[RhinofromWA]

kitajima is japanese! not chinese! big difference there, ya know.

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/sports/index.ssf?/base/sports-2/109269427784050.xml&storylist=sports

CRAP! : My bad. I had chinese sitting in my brain for some reason.....no offence meant. Double :

But it reminds me of King of the Hill at one of the first times Hank Hill meets Kahn Sr.

It went something along the lines of:

K: I am from Laos
H: So are you Chinese or Japanese?
K: I am a Laostian, and land locked country of XXX,XXX,XXX people.
H: So does that make you Chinese or Japanese?

: damnit.

 

[golgiaparatus]

The american had a large lead and had won but the judges spent some time debating to disqualify him for an "illegal turn."

Swimmers (other than americans) were saying it was politically motivated....

Anyway, I saw the turn during the race from above and I thought it looked wierd....but thought that since I know less than 1% about swimming it was probably OK. To me it looked like he rolled over onto his stomach and took one more stroke....anyone else that swims alot see it?

Golgi,
You are a swimmer right? Any thoughts?

I don't know how "politically motivated" the questioning of the turn was.....it was iffy to me. The second place swimmer (who would inherit the Gold) said he would have felt wrong accepting the medal....yada yada.

Is swimming as politically motivated as Ice Skating? neaky:

In Mens Gymnastics:
How about that Hamm guy.....fell on his arse on the vault yet pulled off the over all? Was someone fealing sorry for him? I didn't see the rest of his excercises but I did catch teh vault were he fell into the judges If he did infact earn the overall after a disasterous fall on the vault than but do you think it was fair if the others didn't scew up as bad?

I know less about Gymnastics than I do Swimming so I was just curious. I hate sporting events that are "judged" The clock or distance is a true measurement to me...nt the opinion of a handfull of judges.

Rhino"thebabbler"fromWA

I saw it multiple times in slow motion and his turn was perfectly legal. I dont know what the hell the judge was thinking. If he had stopped his motion, taken an extra stroke, extra kicks, or had missed the wall he could have been DQ'd but he didnt do any of those things. His turn was textbook.

The odd part is that, at first, the judge noted on his sheet that it was illegal for 1 reason and then he changed his reason later when questioned directly. It was horse $hit. I dont know if it was politically motivated or not. Sometimes judges just make bad calls... what was the supposed political motivation?

 

[golgiaparatus]

I think politically motivated refers to the fact that the American swimmer had earlier accused a Japanese swimmer of illegal dolphin kicks in the breastroke...

I was watching it, and I think when they said politically motivated, they meant swimming politics.

That was for real. I saw that shiz and I was once 10th in the nation [edit: got 10th at nationals, close enough ] in that event so I know what Im fuhking talking about. The thing on that is, its illegal but everyone does it. I use to do it all the time and was never DQ'd for it. Basically its just impossible to see from above the water unless its extreme. The Japanese swimmer indeed had a large dolphin kick, but when the entire field does the same thing to a slightly lesser degree it becomes a grey area.

 

[golgiaparatus]

Yeah he was basically rejecting the gold....

Thats because he knows its nearly impossible to flubb up a backstroke turn. plus he got flat out smoked by a body length. If he had gotten the gold it wouldnt really had been his. Besides, those 2 guys race eachother all the time, they know eachother pretty well.

 

[golgiaparatus]

was a bit odd as he stayed flipped over for a long time

Still, it was all 1 motion, if he had stopped his body motion and just floated like a dead fish for a while then yea... it would have been illegal, but he didnt, his motion was consistent.

 

[Toshi]

Still, it was all 1 motion, if he had stopped his body motion and just floated like a dead fish for a while then yea... it would have been illegal, but he didnt, his motion was consistent.

that was the claim tho, that he stopped his body motion. he flipped, took his stroke, and just coasted for a bit . admittedly (see bbc article) that coasting is slower than, well, just about anything else you could do, but the rule was on the books...

addition: i can't challenge your credentials tho. heh. my claim to fame in the swimming world is that my shoulder dislocated twice during meets while doing fly. ouch.

 

[RhinofromWA]

Thanks Golgi.

I thought you might be a good guy to know....it just seemed early to me and it looked like he was on his face when the last stroke happened. Just thought it lookied odd but not until they finished did I hear the ruckus.

Good to hear from someone who did this stuff a lot.

 

[Toshi]

I should have watched the Rest of Hamm's routines....darn. I did get to see the fall though. It is like a car wreck...you have to look and the TV station is required to replay the event over and over and over...never as truely shocking as the first time it happens.

hmm, new news:

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040821-090141-4385r.htm

the korean's routine should have been 0.1 higher so he should have won. d'oh.

 

[RhinofromWA]

hmm, new news:

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040821-090141-4385r.htm

the korean's routine should have been 0.1 higher so he should have won. d'oh.

Must have been an american entering the start values.....

That is terrible. I would hand the medal over and take second and kick second place to the third spot take that *whack* A honest silver is cool too. Not that Hamm was necessarily behind it. I wonder who found the error and how fast. Isn't there a time for challenging something and after that you just let it be?

 

[golgiaparatus]

The Russian Biotch is talking like she got robbed too.

I say biotch because, well... look at her, she even looks like a complete biotch that thinks the is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

[Toshi]

The Russian Biotch is talking like she got robbed too.

I say biotch because, well... look at her, she even looks like a complete biotch that thinks the is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

the one that fell off the uneven bars?

 

[Jr_Bullit]

Rhino - no TV here so I can't answer to what happened with Hamm directly - but 14 years of gymnastics, 10 of which were competitive helps with explaining (sort of) how judging works...Vault was my 2nd event (after floor)...
Each competitor gets two turns on the Vault, one after the other. The two resulting scores are then averaged together to make his total.
A score on the vault is comprised of different specific points - namely, take off, position in the air, hand position on the vault/body position when in contact with the valut, release from the vault, body position in the air, and the landing - plus the category of the move he was trying. For example - if you complete a relatively simple "handspring" over the vault (no twisting or anything, or backflip up to it) you're range of potential scores is like 8.0 and under - so no matter how perfectly executed you can't get better than an 8.0 and you can't do worse than like a 5.0. An olympic level vaultist would be competing at a higher range of scores, like a max of 10.0 minimum of 7.0...Thus, contrary to many common thoughts, if you screw up the landing, the world isn't over . Falling on the landing would definitely have hurt his score, but wouldn't have taken him so low that it ruins the rest of his chances in the all-around category.

Note - it's been 7 years since I've competed at all, so please don't look at the "range" of scores and say - oh gee, she got it wrong on the handspring range so the rest of the crap is invalid...I was trying to make an example of how one fall on the vault isn't necessarily going to ruin an all-around score.

 

[golgiaparatus]

the one that fell off the uneven bars?

Yup... the super tall lanky bi+ch looking woman.

 

[N8 v2.0]

what the hell are you dudes doing watching MENS swimming anyhow???

Women's volleyball is where its at!

 

[RhinofromWA]

Rhino - no TV here so I can't answer to what happened with Hamm directly - but 14 years of gymnastics, 10 of which were competitive helps with explaining (sort of) how judging works...Vault was my 2nd event (after floor)...
Each competitor gets two turns on the Vault, one after the other. The two resulting scores are then averaged together to make his total.
A score on the vault is comprised of different specific points - namely, take off, position in the air, hand position on the vault/body position when in contact with the valut, release from the vault, body position in the air, and the landing - plus the category of the move he was trying. For example - if you complete a relatively simple "handspring" over the vault (no twisting or anything, or backflip up to it) you're range of potential scores is like 8.0 and under - so no matter how perfectly executed you can't get better than an 8.0 and you can't do worse than like a 5.0. An olympic level vaultist would be competing at a higher range of scores, like a max of 10.0 minimum of 7.0...Thus, contrary to many common thoughts, if you screw up the landing, the world isn't over . Falling on the landing would definitely have hurt his score, but wouldn't have taken him so low that it ruins the rest of his chances in the all-around category.

Note - it's been 7 years since I've competed at all, so please don't look at the "range" of scores and say - oh gee, she got it wrong on the handspring range so the rest of the crap is invalid...I was trying to make an example of how one fall on the vault isn't necessarily going to ruin an all-around score.

I would generally agree with you, but

At the level of competition he did mess up pretty bad. He didn't just hop, step, do the hokey-pokey, etc he never got his feet under him and when he came down it was all he could do but sit in the judges lap. I know it won't make his score a zero but with it as close as things are at that level ....a screw up like that is pretty big.

Seems that there was a error on the starting points for the third place guy, when corrected, he would have taken the over all from Hamm and ham would be stepped down to Silver. I don't know what the rules say but I am thinking handing the gold over might be the best. That other guy earned it too. Even with the fall apperantly Hamm did great everywhere else....but he earned a silver.
Here is a non-informational article about Hamm and his controversial medal...and whether he should give it up. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5790612/?GT1=4529

 

[Silver]

Hamm's a weenie.

He won because the judges can't add. That folks, is what we call a technicality.

 

[N8 v2.0]

Aren't these supposed to the best judges in the world as well...???

Don't they get descriptions of each routine in advance?

Seems like making such an error is just plain amateurish...

 

[Jr_Bullit]

I would generally agree with you, but

At the level of competition he did mess up pretty bad. He didn't just hop, step, do the hokey-pokey, etc he never got his feet under him and when he came down it was all he could do but sit in the judges lap. I know it won't make his score a zero but with it as close as things are at that level ....a screw up like that is pretty big.

Seems that there was a error on the starting points for the third place guy, when corrected, he would have taken the over all from Hamm and ham would be stepped down to Silver. I don't know what the rules say but I am thinking handing the gold over might be the best. That other guy earned it too. Even with the fall apperantly Hamm did great everywhere else....but he earned a silver.
Here is a non-informational article about Hamm and his controversial medal...and whether he should give it up. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5790612/?GT1=4529

Well after all this jibber jabber I guess I'm gonna have to beg my parents to TIVO some of the news briefs on it so I can watch when I visit home next.