Arab ban proposed in Jewish areas
- Thread starter Toshi
- Start date
I can kinda understand why they feel like that. After all, they've been bombed quite a few times lately. But I can't say I agree with it either.
Ok...I've been trying to stay outa things like this (political debates) but c'mon!!! WTF are these people thinking?
It's like israel is gonna become the 4th reicht (sp?) w/ these kinda tactics.
It's like israel is gonna become the 4th reicht (sp?) w/ these kinda tactics.
R
RideMonkey
Guest
Well lets not talk about the ugly details no one wants to hear. Like the fact that the bombers often use things like bearings and rat poison (as an anti-coagulant) to maim their victims. Or that they purposely target women and children, the more innocent the better. Or that there are wards full of bomb victims that will never be able to rejoin society.Originally posted by Toshi
I commend you for saying that. The current Israeli regime seems to use similar tactics as those that were used against their grandparents, and viciously attacks anyone who suggests as much.
The Arab bombers are the most cowardly bunch I've ever heard of. What is Israel supposed to do in this situation? I think separation is a logical strategy given the circumstances.
Like I have said before, terrorism can never be condoned. As long as the bombings continue the Palestinian cause will have no validity.
hmm....there are many who will disagree with your last statement....as for the innocents, I don't think there is a single person on this earth who is completely innocent...but that doesn't mean bombing them is ok.....oh wait I'm supposed to stay out of these types of discussions....my wife says I get too worked up......D
I would say to "turn the other cheek" but that is the New Testament.
Actually, the fact that the Arab suicide bombers are moved to act as they do shows that they have serious grievances. Making life worse by being more intolerant and racist (such as through the separation policy in the article) won't help anything.
That's a valid argument for the wall/barrier between Israel and the Palestinian territories (though I oppose that as well), but this is segregation of Israeli CITIZENS. It doesn't say in the article if the family in question was even Palestinian.
I don't agree with the analogies to Nazi Germany, but this IS barely different than US government treatment of Japanese-Americans during WWII.
I understand the need for protection, but actions like this are not in the interests of LONG-TERM safety and peace, and I highly doubt will prevent ANY attacks.
VERY well said.
Sorry, but that is absolute poop.Originally posted by Toshi
I would say to "turn the other cheek" but that is the New Testament.
Actually, the fact that the Arab suicide bombers are moved to act as they do shows that they have serious grievances. Making life worse by being more intolerant and racist (such as through the separation policy in the article) won't help anything.
Serious greivances are not settled by blowing up a busload of kids. Grievances my butt, those people are animals.
.......Or that they are completely brainwashedOriginally posted by Toshi
I would say to "turn the other cheek" but that is the New Testament.
Actually, the fact that the Arab suicide bombers are moved to act as they do shows that they have serious grievances. Making life worse by being more intolerant and racist (such as through the separation policy in the article) won't help anything.
How could you say something that backwards Toshi? I dont care how serious their grievances are, there is no excuse for that kind of barbaric behavior.....
do you feel the same way about the terrorists that flew those airplanes into the WTC and the Pentagon???????????Originally posted by Toshi
Sure, it won't solve their problems. But no one throws away their life lightly, even if you hold them to be "animals."
btw these opinions do not mean that I condone this Arab ban in Jewish communities at all. I feel that this is an extreme move that is going to stir up more anger and violence in Israel (like they really need any more )
)
Yes. They were people, too. Not being in their position, I can't imagine what motivated them to commit such horrific acts as they did. But they aren't animals, and aren't zombies that were mindlessly brainwashed. It's high conceit if we think that Americans are the only ones who can think and make rational decisions (I'm not saying that you said this, just extending on some arguments that have been implied here).
This IS true (us not being the only ones who make rational decisions).
However, I think that the vast majority of the free world would agree that the decisions to bomb the WTC Towers and the Pentagon weren't exactly rational decisions - or weren't backed by rational thought processes.
I'm not saying that these guys weren't rational. (Well, actually, yeah I am. At least to me, they weren't rational. But that's the 'beauty' of differing points of view, haha.) But I do know that if I myself said "I think I'm gonna bomb something" with 100% seriousness, and then asked "By the way, do you think that's a rational decision?" I'm fairly sure they'd say NO. *L*
Condeming the actions of the jews does not neccesaritly mean you condone the actions of the Palistinians.
All I'm saying (and I know that your comment was not neccesarily directed towards me) is that both sides are a little too cought up in the whole thing and they are both acting Piss-poorly.
read my biblical quote below.
its obvious that there was nothing rational about the decision to bomb the wtc. it was a decision made in a religious fervor. people are feeding off of these poor, uneducated people's despair. they are saying their is a better life for you if you kill americans. the suicide bombers are being exploited by the people that they trust and follow. i personally dont believe for one second that osama and all the head guys over there think that you can get into "heaven" by killing. i think they are just preying off of other people who do believe that.
just my 2 cents
I dunno....this is not to say that I'm saying you are wrong. But I guess you have to look at it like this. Some people claim a set of beliefs (I claim Christianity, for instance), and while some people sort of do it just to 'do it' but don't know really WHY they do it....or worse yet, they use it only as a means to an end, others truly aspire to do their best to live their lives according to the tenets/commands/wishes of the focus of that religion. I do my best to live my life according to the Bible, which I believe is the Word of God.
And when it is that big a part of your life, you can't do anything other than that. For instance, I would not go out and kill someone for Jesus *L* (although, sadly, others have - for instance, the Crusades :angry: ), but I would not forsake my beliefs for anything, even if it meant I would have my head blown off for saying "Yes, I believe Jesus is my savior.
And while not all Muslims believe this (at least, according to people I have spoken with, such as the Muslim chaplain here on base), most of them believe that the world should eventually be converted to Islam...if not by actual voluntary conversion, than by forced conversion - or elimination of the 'infidels' who will not convert. I think that they really DID believe that they'd get into heaven. I do know that the one way a Muslim can be assured of eternal paradise (according to their beliefs) is to die for Islam, to become a martyr. This is why you will rarely see the mother of a bomber (or 'martyr') being SAD that her son committed suicide, because they believe their son's place in paradise is assured for eternity.
I do, however, agree 100% with the statement that it was a non-rational decision, made in a religious fervor.
This suicide bomber seemed rational. His target was the separating wall between the Palestian areas and the Israeli areas. Flies in the face of some "conventional wisdom" floating around here...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_2058000/2058082.stm
Excerpts:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_2058000/2058082.stm
Excerpts:
This part I've got to disagree with. The above is something the Western media has really fed us. A good friend of mine from school (who's Lebanese) filmed a documentary in Lebanon, Jordan, Israel and the occupied territories, and he came back with a vastly different story. The parents of these suicide bombers ABSOLUTELY mourn the deaths of their children as would ANY parent that has lost a child. The media feeds us soundbites and images of hardened resolute faces because much of the media would like us to see the Palestinians as "different" than us, emotionless, or even less than human.
They might recieve a check in the mail from Saddam, and they might be congratulated by Hamas, but they cry for their loss like any of us would. Some mourn the way Americans mourned in the 40's for their sons that died in WWII, and some mourn for children they feel were stolen from them by extremists and murdered... but you would have to search long and hard to find a family like the one in Toshi's article that thought all was well and good because their child was martyred in heaven.
I admit that I have not DEEPLY researched that aspect, to be honest. I WILL say that I HAVE indeed seen footage of mothers who were 'wistful' I suppose you could call it, but believed that because what their sons were doing was supposedly the 'will of Allah', they were assured a place in paradise, and therefore were not upset over the loss of their children as far as that aspect was concerned.
I admit I shoulda elaborated a LOT on that statement, though. I have seen quite a few interviews of the fathers/mothers of the people who committed suicide, and while they were indeed sad - therefore backing up what you said above - they were also confident that their son/daughter was in paradise, and happy for that fact. But I didn't really mean to say they all had big smiles on their faces. *L*
I admit I shoulda elaborated a LOT on that statement, though. I have seen quite a few interviews of the fathers/mothers of the people who committed suicide, and while they were indeed sad - therefore backing up what you said above - they were also confident that their son/daughter was in paradise, and happy for that fact. But I didn't really mean to say they all had big smiles on their faces. *L*
Well, this is true that it seemed rational...these guys don't always do cartwheels and scream and laugh maniacally and all of that. I grant you that.Originally posted by Toshi
This suicide bomber seemed rational. His target was the separating wall between the Palestian areas and the Israeli areas. Flies in the face of some "conventional wisdom" floating around here...
Probably would have been better to say add the phrase 'at least as far as most of the world is concerned.'
And I do think that it bears noting that a huge part of whether a decision seems rational (or not) depends upon the point of view, and the justification. The definition of rational means, among other things, the ability to exercise reason. From that point of view, sure, the terrorists may indeed have been rational. However....that of course does not necessarily mean that the views/assumptions/etc. their reasoning was based on, was widely accepted/supported. Might have been in the Arab world, for instance, but certainly not in the USA. From that point of view, a lot of people could deem them irrational.
So are you arguing that reason is relative, like so much else? If so, what does it hinge upon? If knowledge (ie, a man of the 1400s might not be irrational for believing that the world was flat because it was not common knowledge that it isn't) is part of the foundation of reason, then do you have the temerity to claim that those who find the suicide bombers' actions irrational to have a better grip on the truth than everyone else?
No I am not arguing that reason is relative. Personally I do not believe that it is relative, and I'm sure we could get into a huge debate/discussion about this. But that is not my intent. If you will look at my words above I did not say ANYTHING about the REASONING depending upon the point of view. What I said was, and I quote, emphasis mine,
"And I do think that it bears noting that a huge part of whether a decision SEEMS rational (or not) depends upon the point of view, and the justification."
I said that a huge part of whether a decision SEEMS rational depends upon the point of view, and the justification. I didn't say anything about us Christians having better grips on the truth than others - although you can guess my opinion on that.
Whether their arguments were rational or not, or whether they have a grip on the truth or not, with the exception of most of the Arab world, you will not find much support for the September 11th tragedy, OR the thought processes behind it. It's not my desire to go from saying that most of the world believes that the attacks on the WTC and the thought processes of those behind it were wrong, to debating about the foundations of reason.Obviously, when it all gets down to brass tacks, any and all arguments/debates I have, and any reasons I provide, will be drawn from my beliefs, because that's the way I live my life. This is part of why I try not to get into debates that won't go anywhere, especially when I know others do not necessarily govern their lives by the same beliefs - because they won't ever come to reconcile their life/worldviews with my beliefs - because they do NOT draw those life/worldviews from my belief set. They draw it from their own. If you, or others, can't reconcile the Christian life/world view with your own, you won't really understand my point of view, and the same goes for me with your own life/world views, and what you base them on, and therefore all we'd be doing would be to go back and forth trying to prove how wrong the other person was in their arguments, and what they based them on. That gets nobody nowhere.
If any of y'all actually gave half a sh'it about this "war on terrorism":
You'd blow up your cars and ride your bikes instead.
Stop feeding the monster.
You'd blow up your cars and ride your bikes instead.
Stop feeding the monster.
T
Tenaciousle0
Guest
ahh who cares?
I have a truck, therefore I am exempt from explosions.Originally posted by Toshi
Interesting. What if you don't have a car to blow up?
No car? Good for you!Originally posted by Toshi
Interesting. What if you don't have a car to blow up?
Anyways,
Have you ever noticed that our president and vice-president are both wealthy oil barons?
Did you know that Hamid Karzai, the new US backed Afghan president recently struck an agreement with Pakistan for a trans-Afghanistan pipeline from the Caspian Oil reserves?
Did you know that American petroleum giant Unocal is in the running for the contract?
Did you know that Unocal was unable to negotiate a similar deal with the Taliban?
Oh yeah, and what about the Bush backed Coup in Oil-rich Venezuela?
Initiated to guarantee oil supplies in the event of an Arab embargo.
Now please tell me that this "war on terror" has anything to do with nationalism, religion, or some American hating axis of evil.
Its all propaganda.
By consuming petroleum products, you support the terror.
Someone listens to too much late night am radio.
Did you know that I don't drive a vehicle or buy gas to support terrorists?
I drive a vehicle because my daily commute is 90 miles roundtrip, and I buy gas so I can drive the vehicle.
Maybe it's a little extreme on the whole conspiracy theory side, but he's got a point.
There are a lot of reasons the Middle East is messed up right now, and a good number of Arabs hold animosity towards the US, and most of that has a lot to do with oil, and very little to do with religion or "being jealous of our prosperity."
If we were less oil dependent, there would be fewer problems. True, the middle east would not be as wealthy as it is, but we wouldn't feel the need to f--- them up and shake the down every time our precious supply was threatened...
As for South America, oil along with the war on drugs, has only recently caused the problems down there... so the history of our f---ing around with them isn't quite as storied as the middle east. Give it fifty years to stew, THEN we'll be screwed.
Oh yeah, I do agree. For the record, I didn't disagree.....like you said, a little extreme on the conspiracy side. When I buy gas for my Dakota, I'm not thinking "Go Taliban!"
I'm usually thinking "Damn, another $20 down the drain." *L*
You think they are pi$$ed now, let's see what happens if we all start driving electric cars and their #1 source of revenue dissapears.