[fluff]

Perhaps not in this case

This threat of industrial action is safety based (it would appear anyway). Something I have noticed previously is that industrial action can be reported as cuasing disruption and misery to thousands (in the case of the London Underground (metro)) without highlighting that it may be for safety reasons rather than more money or les hours as most would assume.

 

[Handlebarsfsr]

unions are one of the most important things to fighting corporate america. and they are dying a pretty quick death thanks to the media, which villifies them any chance they get.

 

[narlus]

unions are inherently against capitalism. to be rewarded on years of service rather than individual merit is really stupid. likewise, if everyone gets the same raise, what incentive is there to do a good job vs a half-assed job?

 

[dan-o]

unions are inherently against capitalism. to be rewarded on years of service rather than individual merit is really stupid. likewise, if everyone gets the same raise, what incentive is there to do a good job vs a half-assed job?

That all become a moot point once the jobs are sent off-shore to save $0.05/per widget.

A unionized system where employee rights are protected (benefits, working conditions, job security etc) yet pay is linked to performance would be ideal. Nearly all jobs base pay on experience (ie. years of service) to some degree.

My issues with unions revolves around the way idiots/slackers are protected from firing and their inflexibility to change the status quo when a company genuinely needs to change to remain competitive (downsizing, benefits adjustments etc).

Unions may be a pain in the ass, but compared to the current generation of CEOs they seem like a better idea every day in my eyes.

 

[MMike]

moot...

 

[Silver]

unions are inherently against capitalism.

The modern corporation is inherently anti-capitalist as well, so I hardly think that's a good criticism.

 

[narlus]

w/ the exception of the CEO good-ole-boys compensation club, i fail to see yr argument, and you selectively quoted mine. let's see some defense of unions.

 

[Silver]

w/ the exception of the CEO good-ole-boys compensation club, i fail to see yr argument, and you selectively quoted mine. let's see some defense of unions.

I selectively quoted it because I agreed with the other half

This has to be short, because I can't type for **** due to a huge dressing on my left hand...but what is the common goal of the modern corporation? I'd argue the extraction of rents, or in simpler terms monopoly power. That is not consistent with classical capitalist thinking.

 

[RhinofromWA]

moot...

Is that the opinion of a cow......

the point is Moo.

Paraphrased of something Joey said on Friends

 

[jaydee]

unions are one of the most important things to fighting corporate america. and they are dying a pretty quick death thanks to the media, which villifies them any chance they get.

There wouldn't be any jobs if everyone was a union member. How many businesses were founded by unions? How many union members would take the time and financial risks to start a company, with no guarantee of returns, unlimited work hours required, no paid vacations, and no benefits? And what about the concept of "pay according to value"?

I get choked when people with no responsibilities to a business believe they have the right to tell the owners how to run it. Corporations certainly need to be reined in for many reasons, but they are invaluable to the economy. Smaller businesses need encouragement, not grief from unions. Canadian unions, especially public sector ones, are so powerful and self-serving that the interests of a minority frequently get served over those of the majority. Unions were necessary when employees worked extremely long hours in lousy conditions, had no benefits, no sick pay, and no paid vacation. But now their role should be to back off and monitor the situation, not to continue to hold the population for ransom as they extort as much as they can for themselves from businesses.

 

[Ciaran]

I work as a non-union, salaried EXEMPT employee. I am technically on call 24/7. My boss can make me work 14 days in a row, 15 hours a day and there is nothing I can do about it. The boss can technically fire me for even complaining about it. In reality during our busy times I work 6 days a week, about 9 hours a day (10 if you count the hour for lunch). I work nights when needed, and in the case of our current migration to Windows 2000, I have been working nights and 12 hour saturdays. All without ANY extra compensation. The one time a union rep wanted to come in and speak to us we were told that officially the company HAS to let them speak with us, and that there would be no retribution against any one of us should we decide that we want to talk with the union rep more. We were also told that should our shop go union our department would likely be disbanded. In the past year, we have lost 2 people that will not be replaced and have been told that the company is now expecting more effort from us (The last 4 years have had record profits for the company). All while the big wigs get huge bonuses and salaries. I am not only the lowest paid person on our team but the new guy that was recently hired is making 15 K a year more than me AND was hired in at a higher level than me. Even though I know way more than he does and am always answering his questions and helped train him. (And NO, I am not a slacker employee. I do a kick ass job and take mucho pride in my work. And I am not complaining. I do get some major perks during our non busy time. I am just using my own current work situation to illustrate an example.) A union would have likely prevented this.

The flip side...
I was working late on night and was about to walk into the Orthopedics dept to upgrade the PC's. A patient was looking confused by the door. I asked if she needed help and she said that she had just seen the doc (it was 5:15pm, they close at 5:00p) and when she turned her paperwork in she inadvertently gave them a very important piece of paper with some dirrections on it or something. I said that I would see if I could find someone to help her. Well I looked and looked and eventually found the staff in a meeting. I waited till they came out and explained the situation to them and asked if soeone would get the poor lady's paper back to her. it would have taken 5 minutes and done wonders in the customer service arena. Every single nurse and registration clerk and medical assistant looked at me and said that they can't help because it's after 5. some even looked annoyed with me! After reading them the riot act about how lazy they were and how the patients are their bosses one finally with great effort gave the lady back her paper. It took her all of 2 minutes and she still complained!

Unions are good and bad, I think. Ultimately I think the lazyness comes not from the union, but from the employee. The union is bad because it encourages such behavior BUT it also prevents the company and the management from taking advantage of and exploiting the worker. In the end we all want to be paid the most amount of money for the least amount of work. I think striking the good balance takes a good work ethic. I enjoy my job. I try to be the best I can there. I come in early and stay late because that's what it takes to complete the job to my level of satisfaction. I just wish I could get paid a bit more.

 

[valve bouncer]

8 hour day? Lame.

 

[Handlebarsfsr]

There wouldn't be any jobs if everyone was a union member. How many businesses were founded by unions? How many union members would take the time and financial risks to start a company, with no guarantee of returns, unlimited work hours required, no paid vacations, and no benefits? And what about the concept of "pay according to value"?

I get choked when people with no responsibilities to a business believe they have the right to tell the owners how to run it. Corporations certainly need to be reined in for many reasons, but they are invaluable to the economy. Smaller businesses need encouragement, not grief from unions. Canadian unions, especially public sector ones, are so powerful and self-serving that the interests of a minority frequently get served over those of the majority. Unions were necessary when employees worked extremely long hours in lousy conditions, had no benefits, no sick pay, and no paid vacation. But now their role should be to back off and monitor the situation, not to continue to hold the population for ransom as they extort as much as they can for themselves from businesses.

without those horrible unions, you, i, nor anyone else would have such radical things such as child labor laws, an 8 hour work day, a weekend, overtime, etc. unions holding the population for ransom? dude seriously get your head out of fortune magazines ass. holding the population at ransom? give me a break, the only people holding america hostage is the ceo's and their puppets in the government. and you are a willing participant, buying into their propaganda.

 

[jaydee]

without those horrible unions, you, i, nor anyone else would have such radical things such as child labor laws, an 8 hour work day, a weekend, overtime, etc. unions holding the population for ransom? dude seriously get your head out of fortune magazines ass. holding the population at ransom? give me a break, the only people holding america hostage is the ceo's and their puppets in the government. and you are a willing participant, buying into their propaganda.

I don't know if you read my comments. First, I did say that unions had a place when working conditions were abusive. Now they are not; the unions in North America have done their job. Second, I referred to Canada. Third, I was mostly complaining about unions vs. smaller businesses, not Fortune 500 or multinational companies. I did say that large corporations need some controls. And in Canada, I stand behind my remark about unions holding the population for ransom. Canadian public sector unions are extremely militant and have no regard whatsoever for the common person; they are only interested in what they can gain for their members at any cost.

I worked in a union environment, unwillingly, for years. I have attended enough union meetings and had enough threatening remarks made to me by fellow union members when I expressed my individual opinions that I have very little respect for the union mentality. I can't claim that all unions are the same, but I do maintain that, in Canada at least, it is time for them to back off from their relentlessly adversarial and confrontational mindset and deal intelligently with the economical problems we all face.

 

[ohio]

Here's your simple answer. Neither corporations nor unions are inherently evil. Conversely, neither corporations nor unions are inherently good. There are jackasses on both the corporate side and the union side. If those jackasses wouldn't find themselves in positions of power, we'd all be better off.

 

[narlus]

i think handlebarfsr's experience w/ this topic is being part of the student union at UConn...

 

[Buck Fever]

unions are inherently against capitalism. to be rewarded on years of service rather than individual merit is really stupid. likewise, if everyone gets the same raise, what incentive is there to do a good job vs a half-assed job?

So they sort of work like our federal government then. If you're a slacker and work for the taxpayers, it's almost impossible to get fired...you get a promotion and are sent to another department. Lamesauce.

 

[fluff]

There wouldn't be any jobs if everyone was a union member. How many businesses were founded by unions? How many union members would take the time and financial risks to start a company, with no guarantee of returns, unlimited work hours required, no paid vacations, and no benefits? And what about the concept of "pay according to value"?

I've quoted selectiveltybecause I'm lazy, busy and have a short attention span.

It seems that you think that joining a union robs you of initiative, why? I have been a union member and I have also started two businesses and employed people. Oddly enough I did not start either business out of the goodness of my heart to provide jobs for starving people, but I started them to make money and employed people only when cost effective for me.

Unions can be good and bad but if you think that the days of worker-exploitation are gone you are misled.

 

[Damn True]

I selectively quoted it because I agreed with the other half

This has to be short, because I can't type for **** due to a huge dressing on my left hand...but what is the common goal of the modern corporation? I'd argue the extraction of rents, or in simpler terms monopoly power. That is not consistent with classical capitalist thinking.

Is the directive not to make more money and in an industry wit a relatively fixed customer base is not the way to do that to pull market share?

For instance the auto industry.

 

[Ciaran]

... Unions can be good and bad but if you think that the days of worker-exploitation are gone you are misled.

Very true. So very true. While the exploitation may not be as bad as it was when the kids were in the factories, it still goes on.

 

[Silver]

Is the directive not to make more money and in an industry wit a relatively fixed customer base is not the way to do that to pull market share?

For instance the auto industry.

Adam Smith would be horrified with the modern day auto industry, I think.

 

[Damn True]

By the business side or the lack of vision in design?

 

[jaydee]

It seems that you think that joining a union robs you of initiative, why?

Because there is no reward allowed for doing any more than the required minimum. There is pressure on "achievers" to back off to the lowest common denominator. This is not theory; I have years of experience watching this happen.

I have been a union member and I have also started two businesses and employed people. Oddly enough I did not start either business out of the goodness of my heart to provide jobs for starving people, but I started them to make money and employed people only when cost effective for me.

Then you are a rarity. And I don't think very many businessmen start a business just to feed starving people. Just for the record, did you have a unionized staff in your business? Were you able to offer them paid holidays and sick days, a full benefits package, guaranteed hours every week even if business was poor, maternity/paternity leave, all the stat holidays off with pay or double time if worked, no overtime unless agreed on weeks in advance, and no chance of being laid off if they didn't work hard enough? And did you let them tell you how badly you were managing your business, and threaten to shut you down if you didn't accede to their wishes?

Unions can be good and bad but if you think that the days of worker-exploitation are gone you are misled.

I don't think for a moment that there aren't greedy, unscrupulous sweatshop employers out there that workers need to be protected from. If unions directed their efforts toward these situations, I'd be a union supporter. But it's hard to believe the melodramatic whining of organizations whose members are among the most pampered in the entire work force. Unions have slowly evolved from solution to problem. If they are to continue to be relevant it's time they got back to helping the people who really need help.

 

[fluff]

Without labour unions (for which some of the pioneers paid for with their lives) there would be widespread exploitation of workers throughout western society (as well as the third world). If they ceased to exist then workers' rights would be eroded over time. No employer I have worked for has ever shown the slightest sign of altruism to their employees.

That some union officials abuse the system is no different to the fact that some managers and employers also abuse the system. Removal of incentive is not simply down to the unions, it is also down to poor management - there are many ways to motivate and incentivize (horrible word) as any manager worth his salt knows.

Had I reneged on the deals I made with my employees I would have expected them to protest, if they had suggestions as to improve the running of my business I would have listened, what is wrong with that? I am not fully au-fait with employment law in your country but it is not that hard to get rid of failing employees if they are truly failing, getting rid of people because you cannot change the deal you made with them is something else yet problems with both issues again can be laid just as much at the door of poor management as they can at unions.

In almost every post about unions that I have seen on this board I see condemnation without any reasoning and balanced argument to back it up.

Ultimately to say that unions are no longer necessary is not much different to saying that corporations are no longer necessary.