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Are Western DH racers faster than EC racers?

Summit

Monkey
Sep 23, 2001
369
0
here 'n there
First off – the last thing I want to do is start a flame war between East and West. I am trying to figure out if the problems I’ve experienced racing this year are due to a change of venue, or just a crappy rider (myself), heh.

Note: I’m ONLY talking amateur fields here, not pros. The EC has tons of sicko riders, from young guns like Neko Mulally to Chris Herndon and on and on.

So last year (08) I raced Sport (weekend warrior) at the Snowshoe series. It was the first time I’d raced DH in over 6 years – I used to race in CO back in the late 90s/early 00s. I only ever raced Beginner and Sport back then. Wound up doing pretty well at Snowshoe, took 2nd for the season in my class. That included two races in which I got 2nd place with a crash in my run. So without a crash I’m sure I would’ve been close to winning. Fields were large – 18-22 riders in my class, so I felt pretty validated. This also meant I was required to bump up to Expert for the following season at Snowshoe.

Wound up moving back west this spring and jumped into the Utah DH Series races and moved up to Cat 1 due to my Snowshoe results the year before. It’s been a disaster. I did actually race a Utah series race last season and finished mid-back in Sport. This year, I am just getting crushed. Not racing well, and that’s its own issue, but even when I have a clean run my times are just awful compared to the rest of the field. And those times are still mid to low in the Sport (Cat 2) fields in Utah.

So just trying to figure out – are western amateur riders just that much faster? Am I that much slower this season – I don’t think so honestly. I really feel like the Utah series is seriously competitive and it’s honestly kinda demoralized me on the whole race thing. I know it’s all for fun, but the fact is if we race, we have some competitiveness and want to do well. Looking forward to hearing some input from riders who’ve raced on both coasts!
 

Jeremy R

<b>x</b>
Nov 15, 2001
9,698
1,053
behind you with a snap pop
For one, weekend warrior at Snowshoe is a mix of beginner and sport riders,
and cat 1 is a mix of semi-pro and expert riders. Big difference,
no matter where in the country you are racing.
I have raced all over and there are fast guys everywhere on both coasts.
Don't get discouraged, and just keep at it.
 

Transcend

My Nuts Are Flat
Apr 18, 2002
18,040
3
Towing the party line.
Different type of racing. West coast races tend to be MUCH faster, vs slower, more technical east coast races. If you aren't comfortable at speed and just letting the bike roll, you're going to lose a lot of ground really quick.
 

zdubyadubya

Turbo Monkey
Apr 13, 2008
1,273
96
Ellicott City, MD
i dont really know how much this applies, but i had a similar experience and here is what i came up with. during the utah DH series, the courses that are raced are ridden by those who race ALL season long. i dont think you are any slower, maybe just that when competing against someone who knows the course like the back of their hand you could be faster than them, but they will kick your butt because of better lines and better flow. my 2 cents. my experience with the utah DH series was one of a very close-knit familiar group of riders who does it and they do it every year. so getting in with that group on their turf is difficult. but this was when i raced sport/expert in 2002-2004. i havent been back to race since so things may have changed.
 

jvnixon

Turbo Monkey
May 14, 2006
2,325
0
SickLines.com
First off &#8211; the last thing I want to do is start a flame war between East and West. I am trying to figure out if the problems I&#8217;ve experienced racing this year are due to a change of venue, or just a crappy rider (myself), heh.

Note: I&#8217;m ONLY talking amateur fields here, not pros. The EC has tons of sicko riders, from young guns like Neko Mulally to Chris Herndon and on and on.

So last year (08) I raced Sport (weekend warrior) at the Snowshoe series. It was the first time I&#8217;d raced DH in over 6 years &#8211; I used to race in CO back in the late 90s/early 00s. I only ever raced Beginner and Sport back then. Wound up doing pretty well at Snowshoe, took 2nd for the season in my class. That included two races in which I got 2nd place with a crash in my run. So without a crash I&#8217;m sure I would&#8217;ve been close to winning. Fields were large &#8211; 18-22 riders in my class, so I felt pretty validated. This also meant I was required to bump up to Expert for the following season at Snowshoe.

Wound up moving back west this spring and jumped into the Utah DH Series races and moved up to Cat 1 due to my Snowshoe results the year before. It&#8217;s been a disaster. I did actually race a Utah series race last season and finished mid-back in Sport. This year, I am just getting crushed. Not racing well, and that&#8217;s its own issue, but even when I have a clean run my times are just awful compared to the rest of the field. And those times are still mid to low in the Sport (Cat 2) fields in Utah.

So just trying to figure out &#8211; are western amateur riders just that much faster? Am I that much slower this season &#8211; I don&#8217;t think so honestly. I really feel like the Utah series is seriously competitive and it&#8217;s honestly kinda demoralized me on the whole race thing. I know it&#8217;s all for fun, but the fact is if we race, we have some competitiveness and want to do well. Looking forward to hearing some input from riders who&#8217;ve raced on both coasts!
How are your times compared to the Cat 2 guys on the same course (how far off the pace)? Also, Cat 1 changed this year and has a mix bag of expert and "semi pro" as they no longer have a semi-pro class.
 
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haromtnbiker

Turbo Monkey
Oct 3, 2004
1,461
0
Cary, NC
Well in 2008 at Snowshoe the weekend warrior class was a lower class than amateur. I would equate doing well in Am class at snowshoe to a mid pack Cat 1 rider.
 

Summit

Monkey
Sep 23, 2001
369
0
here 'n there
How are your times compared to the Cat 2 guys on the same course (how far off the pace)? Also, Cat 1 changed this year and has a mix bag of expert and "semi pro" as they no longer have a semi-pro class.
That's really the problem. I expected to be low in Cat 1, but my times are low-to-mid pack in Cat 2. Blah.

Oh and Transcend - generally true about slower, techier courses, but Snowshoe's courses last year were super fast western-style courses; I actually pulled away from a lot of my friends in those sections as opposed to the super tech sections.

And for the record, the Brian Head Cat 1/Pro course was wayyyy techier than anything I raced at Snowshoe last year. It was GNAR!
 

Dhracer3

Monkey
Jan 10, 2006
155
0
Fletcher NC
East Coast tracks are way better... Rocks... Roots... Trees... Dirt! and not powder.. If you are out West and are by a mountain say Mammoth then you have plenty of great terrain to practice on so I would say its more of a whereabouts you live rather than East or West.
 

Sandwich

Pig my fish!
Staff member
May 23, 2002
21,030
5,918
borcester rhymes
It's probably because all the westerners are so used to riding their bronco's and shooting pistols all the time and chewing tobaccy after herding cattle all day that they're so fast.

but seriously, soooo many factors go into this. The WFO aspect that many east coast mountains lack, the availability of riding terrain, popularity of the sport in certain areas, training, fatigue, altitude issues, bike color, number of same hill references, percentage of matching annodized parts to forged black components...all of these things go into who will do better at a race.

I'd say do a bunch of races in the area and see where you're at...one race doesn't mean you're a star/chump.
 

Summit

Monkey
Sep 23, 2001
369
0
here 'n there
True fact- Availability of chairlifts is inversely proportional to the speed of racers.
This may actually hold some truth, I think fitness back west is in general higher than the east. It was pretty obvious in the general population when I used to fly back and forth from SLC to Ohio all the time. Of course that doesn't necessarily translate to mountain bikers - I'm positive the mountain bikers in OH/PA/WV were stronger XC/trail riders than in the west - I know I was in better shape when I lived in the east - due to the rolling terrain, forcing you to ride and train "interval style".

I know this is totally open-ended, just curious to hear some thoughts on the issue. Oh and I've raced 3 so far this season - Bountiful UT, McCall ID, and Brian Head UT. McCall was the only one I didn't wreck, but my time still was...lacking. Eh, it's still fun. I just got addicted to the podium in WV :)
 

SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
4,155
355
Roanoke, VA
DH racers out west tend to be more well rounded bike riders... I know plenty of people who race here on the eastcoast that only own DH bikes... The eastcoast of the US is the only place on earth (unless you live at a ski hill) where you can ride DH within 2 hours of major population centers...

People who build their own tracks to ride, and earn their own elevation tend to have a lot more invested in the sport...
 

ChrisKring

Turbo Monkey
Jan 30, 2002
2,399
6
Grand Haven, MI
I agree with Transend. The courses are very different. I have raced out west a lot and I have never seen a course as technically difficult out west as the SS#2 course last year. Add some rain and it gets harder.

I am not saying racing out west is easier. In fact, it is sometimes harder since at the amatuer level to do well you not only have to ride clean but you have to have perfect braking points and not over brake. At Snowshoe, if you don't crash your going to be mid pack in the AM class even if you come to a complete stop in sections. Out west, if you slow down to much, you will lose tens of seconds in the whole next straight away while you try to accelerate. Corner speed is so much more critical.

At the pro level, it doesn't matter.
 

jason3559

Chimp
Jun 21, 2004
22
0
New England
Starting in 2009, classes are broken up a bit differently. Per Todd S., competiviness should increase by eliminating the Semi-Pro class. The semi-pro's were given an option of signing in as a Cat 1 or Pro.

This might explain a part of it. Maybe you are racing against a population of former semi-pros?

Cat 2s also include some slower Experts from last year. As one person mentioned, compare times against this class to get a good idea how you are progressing.
 

jonKranked

Detective Dookie
Nov 10, 2005
85,558
24,181
media blackout
DH racers out west tend to be more well rounded bike riders... I know plenty of people who race here on the eastcoast that only own DH bikes... The eastcoast of the US is the only place on earth (unless you live at a ski hill) where you can ride DH within 2 hours of major population centers...

People who build their own tracks to ride, and earn their own elevation tend to have a lot more invested in the sport...
This is definitely true.

Also, at least in SoCal you have a riding season that is more or less 12 months. East coast, we get maaaaaaaaaybe 8 months (if we're lucky, and this doesn't count winter riding).
 

AlCapone

Monkey
Apr 5, 2009
192
0
North Bend, WA
DH racers out west tend to be more well rounded bike riders... I know plenty of people who race here on the eastcoast that only own DH bikes... The eastcoast of the US is the only place on earth (unless you live at a ski hill) where you can ride DH within 2 hours of major population centers...

People who build their own tracks to ride, and earn their own elevation tend to have a lot more invested in the sport...
I disagree with that statement. I live in the PacNW (Seattle area) and their is lots of good riding close by, such as Galby.
 

Summit

Monkey
Sep 23, 2001
369
0
here 'n there
I am not saying racing out west is easier. In fact, it is sometimes harder since at the amatuer level to do well you not only have to ride clean but you have to have perfect braking points and not over brake. At Snowshoe, if you don't crash your going to be mid pack in the AM class even if you come to a complete stop in sections. Out west, if you slow down to much, you will lose tens of seconds in the whole next straight away while you try to accelerate. Corner speed is so much more critical.
I think this is spot-on. Great point Chris.

Another factor I forgot to mention is the USAC license. Sport/Cat 2 tends to be really competitive in the Utah series b/c you have to have an annual license to race Cat 1. A day license gets you into Cat 2 or 3 only. At SS, you could just pick your class and ride. No financial detractors from going to Expert/Cat 1.

edit: and yes, there are a few ex-pros in my class now, which is what it is...
 

SuspectDevice

Turbo Monkey
Aug 23, 2002
4,155
355
Roanoke, VA
I disagree with that statement. I live in the PacNW (Seattle area) and their is lots of good riding close by, such as Galby.
I'm not familliar with Galby, does it have a chairlift? Are people with race numbers smoking in the liftline?

Shuttle Spots are way different that DH mountains in what it takes in the form of commitment from the athlete, atmo.
 

profro

Turbo Monkey
Feb 25, 2002
5,617
314
Walden Ridge
Shuttle Spots are way different that DH mountains in what it takes in the form of commitment from the athlete, atmo.
How so?

I have always thought of this debate myself. I remember thinking I was hot stuff when I first entered the semi-pro class aonly to get my a$$ handed to me at Snowmass. I just wasn't used to the speed. I got used to it and the next week at Telluride showed much better.

However I remember seeing the look on a bunch of fast west coast racers at the US Open a couple of years ago. We all had a good time "free"riding on Sunday.
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
117
San Francisco
at[/I] a ski hill) where you can ride DH within 2 hours of major population centers...
There are 2 lift access places within an Hour or so of LA. In addition to a 5k descent and plenty of other shuttle trails FYI.

Having ridden both East and West (Cali only) resorts and trails, West coast is more challenging, East coast is more fun. East coast runs are TYPICALLY shorter, faster, less rocky, and better dirt. West coast stuff is generally longer, sketchier, and rockier. I think the length is what really makes West Coast riders better. You have to be a much better rider and be in much better shape to make it down 10-15 minute DH tracks (at pro race speed) than 3-4 minute tracks. Plus West coast tracks seem to be more pedaly too. All I can say is I raced the U.S. open 2 years ago, being totally out of shape, and did the entire race run without a chain, and was ~10 seconds from pro qualifying time. Out here on the west coast, I'm an average DH-er at best, probably the worst among my friends.

People can argue all they want about east coast being "more technical"(which its not even close to IMO), but the fact remains, none (maybe one?) of the pro men going to Worlds from the U.S. are from the East coast. So ya...
 

Huck Banzai

Turbo Monkey
May 8, 2005
2,523
23
Transitory
There are 2 lift access places within an Hour or so of LA. In addition to a 5k descent and plenty of other shuttle trails FYI.

Having ridden both East and West (Cali only) resorts and trails, West coast is more challenging, East coast is more fun. East coast runs are TYPICALLY shorter, faster, less rocky, and better dirt. West coast stuff is generally longer, sketchier, and rockier. I think the length is what really makes West Coast riders better. You have to be a much better rider and be in much better shape to make it down 10-15 minute DH tracks (at pro race speed) than 3-4 minute tracks. Plus West coast tracks seem to be more pedaly too. All I can say is I raced the U.S. open 2 years ago, being totally out of shape, and did the entire race run without a chain, and was ~10 seconds from pro qualifying time. Out here on the west coast, I'm an average DH-er at best, probably the worst among my friends.

People can argue all they want about east coast being "more technical"(which its not even close to IMO), but the fact remains, none (maybe one?) of the pro men going to Worlds from the U.S. are from the East coast. So ya...
Wow, you defy the vast majority. West sketchier and rockier? as a general rule - HELL NO!

I love riding out west, I love PNW, but HELL NO. I prefer the riding out west because its less of a beating, and more fun in that respect - and the bigger mountains provide longer runs, which is a super plus.

East coast riders out west - not as fast as the westies, but nothing stops em.

West coast riders in east - stuck in the muck and boulder strewn switchbacks and 'root-gardens'

we are used to different things on a regular basis and it shows. But avoiding reality isnt the way to get where you want to go.

The US Open comment is a massive boatload of crap - those top guys are the top guys wherever they go, not 'locals'; if you're 10 seconds off them at Diablo, you better get signed quick, and you should be right with that 10sec gap anywhere else.

Spot to spot is relative, but on the whole the east is boatloads more 'technical' than the west.
 
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Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,850
9,556
AK
I see a lot of general ignorance towards the West Coast, hence my previous comment. Is it fair to say all East Coast riding is the same? I'm not going to say that, but the EC guys are talking as if it is, and I know most of the West Coast stuff is different. You got the PacNW, you got Oregon, you got California around Tahoe, you got SoCal, you got Arizona, you got Nevada, you got Colorado, NM, Utah, etc, etc etc. What do these people mean by "West Coast"? Surely not AZ, NM, CO, UT, ID, etc. Those aren't even on the West Coast. We got some wildly varying riding. We have everything in AZ from super steep rock chutes, to super steep dirt runs, to boulder infested runs, to smooth fun flow runs, to moist rainforest runs, and everything in between. I fail to see how everything on the West Coast is "smooth", even if we're talking about race courses. I suppose some races on both sides could be given that designation, but I've seen plenty (and done a few) on the West side that are anything but.

So would it be fair for us "West Coast" guys to say all East Coast riding is the same? Is it? I doubt it really is, although there may be some generalizations that are generally true (but there will be exceptions).
 
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Muttely

Monkey
Jan 26, 2009
402
0
Ive got a feeling this thread could turn nasty, resulting in the top west coast racer being shot, and then the top east coast racer getting capped in retaliation.
 

bizutch

Delicate CUSTOM flower
Dec 11, 2001
15,928
24
Over your shoulder whispering
I say its the speed of West Coast terrain on bigger mountains. Many of us can react reasonably in boulder fields and off camber to carry medium speed and finish mid-pack. The fastest thing I was ever on on the East Coast was Mount Snow in the dry when it was a straight shot down. Speeds were sketch and the rocks DON'T move at all.

But, when I raced Deer Valley, I was in the best shape ever in terms of racing and coming off some decent results here. The open slope there was so insanely fast that I couldn't get my mind to adjust to the speeds...even just straight shots. Chumps that i was blowing by in the rocky stuff like Barney Rubble made me look like a blue haired Cadillac queen on the open stuff. Drifting, slipping on fine grit dirt and dust was hard to get used to.

Was really looking forward to seeing where I stood with those guys but lawn darted, seperated my shoulder in my race day practice run, cried like a baby and never went back. I think it's the top end speed that you're just going to have to spend time getting used to.
 

gemini2k

Turbo Monkey
Jul 31, 2005
3,526
117
San Francisco
Wow, you defy the vast majority. West sketchier and rockier? as a general rule - HELL NO!

I prefer the riding out west because its less of a beating, and more fun in
Spot to spot is relative, but on the whole the east is boatloads more 'technical' than the west.
Can someone PLEASE tell me where are these "fast and smooth" west coast DH trails are? I hear about it all the time on this board but have no idea what people are referring too. Seriously, none of my comments in this thread are meant to be d*ck-ish (and I usually am), I'm just curious. I like to always find new kinds of trails. I PREFER fast and smooth, I have no idea where they are around here (Well maybe knapps in Santa Barbara). Where have you ridden on the West coast?
 
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Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,850
9,556
AK
Can someone PLEASE tell me where are these "fast and smooth" west coast DH trails are? I hear about it all the time on this board but have no idea what people are referring too. Seriously, none of my comments in this thread are meant to be d*ck-ish (and I usually am), I'm just curious. I like to always find new kinds of trails. I PREFER fast and smooth, I have no idea where they are around here (Well maybe knapps in Santa Barbara). Where have you ridden on the West coast?
I think a lot of people watch the videos of Whistler and figure that's what everything must be East of Virginia. Ok, that's a bit harsh, but seriously, I've ridden plenty of super-slow tech on the West "side", also some in the "middle". Even big roots! Sometimes it's riding on dirt, sometimes it's solid rock.
 

soul-skier

Monkey
May 18, 2009
322
0
Mother Nature
Wow! I am truly impressed. Just when I thought that E-speculation couldn't get moar dumberer....

Listen up biatches. The EAST COAST rules! After living in California during my twenties I have had the pleasure of riding my bike in SoCal, San Juan Trail, Mammoth Mountain, Rock Creek, and Mt. Hood area. The trails are great in those areas, very fun. Some rock, some dirt, and some volcanic pumice (sand). It's easier to go fast on most of those trails because they are moar forgiving, generally wider, and on actual MOUNTAINS. My wife and I refer to them as "butter" trails. And then I moved back to upstate N.Y....

This is where I really learned to ride. The natural terrain found on the hills of the east coast is second to none. I used to rip Mammoth on a Ti XC Voodoo HT & Giant AC2. Bullit, Velocity, Hillary Step, Chain Smoke, Lower Rock Creek, San Juan Trail, Mammoth Rock Trail, Shotgun, Ricoccet...all child's play compared to the typical warm-up run at Plattekill. So as for the West Coast riders being faster than East Coast riders? Maybe on West Coast Trails that are familiar to them. Give a Right Coast Ripper some time on those butter trails and say goodnight. EAST COAST RULES!

Have a nice day!
 

Jm_

sled dog's bollocks
Jan 14, 2002
18,850
9,556
AK
Wow! I am truly impressed. Just when I thought that E-speculation couldn't get moar dumberer....

Listen up biatches. The EAST COAST rules! After living in California during my twenties I have had the pleasure of riding my bike in SoCal, San Juan Trail, Mammoth Mountain, Rock Creek, and Mt. Hood area. The trails are great in those areas, very fun. Some rock, some dirt, and some volcanic pumice (sand). It's easier to go fast on most of those trails because they are moar forgiving, generally wider, and on actual MOUNTAINS. My wife and I refer to them as "butter" trails. And then I moved back to upstate N.Y....

This is where I really learned to ride. The natural terrain found on the hills of the east coast is second to none. I used to rip Mammoth on a Ti XC Voodoo HT & Giant AC2. Bullit, Velocity, Hillary Step, Chain Smoke, Lower Rock Creek, San Juan Trail, Mammoth Rock Trail, Shotgun, Ricoccet...all child's play compared to the typical warm-up run at Plattekill. So as for the West Coast riders being faster than East Coast riders? Maybe on West Coast Trails that are familiar to them. Give a Right Coast Ripper some time on those butter trails and say goodnight. EAST COAST RULES!

Have a nice day!
If you're trying to impress us with the places you've ridden in CA, I can say that isn't much of a list. Seriously, that's not a lot of different riding. Who's fault is it that you haven't ridden in more places on the West Coast? Not every trail on the West Coast is like Culvert, lower Toads, trails at Mammoth, and so on. Some of those may be the most popular trails due to access and how people with different levels of skills can ride them, but I'd bet if you'd really broken into some of the DH groups in some of these locations you'd find the real crazy stuff. Some of it isn't even fun to ride IMO, as you're simply on the damn brakes the whole time trying to negotiate some switchback on a 60 degree slope with rocks at stupid-slow speed, but to say there's no slower speed or "tight" riding there is pretty ignorant. Maybe there isn't as much when you look at how many trails conform to certain standards, but it's most definitely there.

I'm still trying to figure out from "East Coast" riders what "West Coast" means. Does the West Coast start on the Western side of Virginia? Colorado? California?
 
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Sghost

Turbo Monkey
Jul 13, 2008
1,038
0
NY
CA and OR, with AZ and UT lumped in. CO is its own entity.
 
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MinorThreat

Turbo Monkey
Nov 15, 2005
1,630
41
Nine Mile Falls, WA
I'm not familliar with Galby, does it have a chairlift? Are people with race numbers smoking in the liftline?
Galby is short for Galbraith Mtn. - - in Bellingham. No lifts. Land is owned by a big timber company and is networked with gravel access roads that you have to pedal to the top to take any trail down. Amazing trails. No shuttling.

BTW, Galby is not exactly in Seatlle's back yard - - it's about an hour-and-a-half drive north.
 

William42

fork ways
Jul 31, 2007
3,908
634
edit: who am I trying to kid. This thread is retarded. East coast trails are OMGWTFBBQ WAI BETTR.

West coast riders are better.
 
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ianjenn

Turbo Monkey
Sep 12, 2006
2,998
702
SLO
soul-skier
Stay away from SLO, and some up in N Cal it can get steep, rocky and sketchy on the right trails. If you dont want to see technical Cali based trails.